Anonymous Declares "Infowar" on Wikileaks Opponents

[Direwolf750]

YAY CAUSE DRIVEN MAYHEM! on a more serious note I think that overall this is an interesting change of tactics, but hopefully wikileaks can get back online. Gotta side with anon on this one...you can't decide to censor where you want and randomly charge people with rape.

 

[AzrealMaximillion]

Anonymous do realise that they're supporting a rapist?

Oh actually, they probably don't care. Since when should the well-being of people matter over anarchy directed to the governments.

Do you realise that the woman he allegedly raped has ties with the CIA?

http://www.rawstory.com/rs/2010/12/assange-rape-accuser-cia-ties/

It's a set up to get public support. This site has been up since 2006. It's hypocritical to now get mad now that the U.S. is being shown in a dirty light.

 

[Seneschal]

snip

Now why would stuff like that being exposed a bad thing? People need to learn dealing with stuff, you can't live in your bloody walled-off little world and pretend like everything's alright. And then tell other people they should do it too. We're not living in a perfect world and our governments are faaaar from being fucking sacred, people have to know and understand that.

Y'know, I think most people already know that Governments sometimes do things that aren't... pleasant, or completely above board, for want of better words. Do we need a whacking great big spotlight shining on it? Doubtful if that helps any situation, past, present or future.

It's easy to understand why Anonymous have decided to support Assange and his minions - given that both groups are essentially self-aggrandising children throwing their toys out of the proverbial pram. Good riddance to the lot of 'em.

Yes, we do need a spotlight. If a government official deems it necessary to infringe on basic human rights to protect his country, he can do it for his country and then face the consequences. You may say "it changes nothing if we reveal government dirty laundry!", but you'd be protecting criminals. And the people wishing wikileaks to go away and operating this smear campaign are criminals that are jeopardizing the entire planet's rights to free speech by settin a precedent of "too much truth, oh buggery, I guess a little fascism won't harm anyone, huh?"

 

[thethingthatlurks]

snip

Now why would stuff like that being exposed a bad thing? People need to learn dealing with stuff, you can't live in your bloody walled-off little world and pretend like everything's alright. And then tell other people they should do it too. We're not living in a perfect world and our governments are faaaar from being fucking sacred, people have to know and understand that.

Y'know, I think most people already know that Governments sometimes do things that aren't... pleasant, or completely above board, for want of better words. Do we need a whacking great big spotlight shining on it? Doubtful if that helps any situation, past, present or future.

It's easy to understand why Anonymous have decided to support Assange and his minions - given that both groups are essentially self-aggrandising children throwing their toys out of the proverbial pram. Good riddance to the lot of 'em.

Yes, we do need a spotlight. If a government official deems it necessary to infringe on basic human rights to protect his country, he can do it for his country and then face the consequences. You may say "it changes nothing if we reveal government dirty laundry!", but you'd be protecting criminals. And the people wishing wikileaks to go away and operating this smear campaign are criminals that are jeopardizing the entire planet's rights to free speech by settin a precedent of "too much truth, oh buggery, I guess a little fascism won't harm anyone, huh?"

Very well put! If we allow anybody to use the guise of national security to cover up their crimes, we set a precedent that others will follow. This must never be allowed to happen!

 

[AlexWinter]

He is also an Internet martyr, He is most likely going to be killed but has a 1.4 GB file on various peoples that he has the usb key to, since he is a master hacker, he made a supposedly impossible to break encryption, If he is in danger of any kind he is to release this "Insurance", It is either 1.4 gb's of bluff or 1.4gb's of important files that show everything.

I'm quite interested about this file, after finally deciding to find out what Wikileaks was I did a load of research on the site and Assange yesterday and it sounds to me like he has withheld a lot of potentially earth shattering information specifically because there are some things which aren't supposed to be told.

However if the US continues to be a stubborn child (Refusing to tell Assange who would be in danger so he could blank the names from certain files) this insurance file should and probably will be released. The passcode to decrypt it I mean, allowing anyone to read it.

Assange is trying to beat the governments into shape by kicking their asses when they deserve it

Like a choke chain on a dog.

He has no divine right to do this, nothing that makes him above the law. But someone had to.

And that's why he's doing the right thing, he's deliberately NOT being the hero, allowing himself to be hated by the majority of the populace so that there can be some accountability.

That's what will make him a martyr for truth. A watchful protector. A silent guardian. A dark knight.



That just happened.

 

[AlexWinter]

It goes "A silent guardian. A watchful protector", though, not the other way around.

Dammit, I make that mistake every time!

Not that I do this often.

 

[Carlston]

It's interesting. So let me get this right. A sexual predator gets his hands on classified documents. Releases them all over... So the source has no credibility. So he has junk documents. But the world over not just the USA takes these notes people. If you meet with this Middle Eastern King, he hates cocopuffs and mention of Lady Gaga.

Yeah they make those kind of notes...it's like a script. If the person your visiting to talk world peace hates the color blue you don't wear it, if they like kittens get them a card with one on it.

Thing is, short of the nightmare court martials that will happen when Wikileaks is busted this so called Tony Hawk, Against the man crusader of truth....
Well seriously, we as the public in all countries are normally Naive and fairly stupid on matters of our government. What we demand the "right" to know, we don't have the right. Nor the good sense to keep it, well secret.

I would bet a nice cool Billion dollars, if we released on the news to the UK, USA, ect say.... a critcial troop location. In four hours, someone would send it public to the world. And that rejared (yeah new word kids)idiot would be the Tony Hawk hero of fighting the man, and secret government plots...and good chance that info will be used against that base, then all of a sudden it's not their fault and everyone had a right to know?

Why? See little things like this used to get the death sentence for treason, now we just let it go. Dipsticks country of resident is now responcible for his basic espionage against everyone he has a file to.

Yeah and it is espionage, the taking of classified documents and reposting, other to just damage countries. And what damage? Sad really it's more just the notes we keep, Putin is a dick, wait till he drinks 5 glass of vodka before even trying to talk to the jackass. Well, guess what EVERYONE has these notes. But we won't say it in public...

Every country has spies, counter spies, black ops, plans to invade Easter island if it pisses someone off ect.

The most dangerous thing, is if Rejard boy is even once...even ONCE seen as a reliable source....

Well all the documents can NOT be verified who and where they came from and if they are real at all.


What stops him from making his own with a copied letter head and sparking all out war?
The UK has a document when a gas heater exploded in Yemmstan it wasn't a accident but a missile fired at the Yemmstan leader Snickerwuffen. No facts, no evidence, barely even able to string the random gas heater explosion....

And what will the public do? The real public, the masses? Right the stupid thing...they believe him.

And you thought Iran saying the UN had a earth quake machine was rejarded wait till they gear up troops to attack people because they think they are in the right?


Seriously most the documents about Iraq and Afgan are all trash communications...the fact one nation is allowing a citizen to make a living selling other nations secrets to the public eye is just fucked up. And that nation better get its act together before every other nations business brings action against them.

 

[BlackStar42]

A government should fear it's citizens, not the other way around.

Also, that rape charge sounds like total BS.

 

[eljawa]

I'm sorry but to hell with this rapist. His alleged sexual-assault crime aside, the man has exposed HIGHLY classified material on the damn internet. No, I don't mean historical documents concerning the Iraq and Afghanistan Wars. Those documents are history are fully protected by the First Amendment's Freedom of the Press, look up the Pentagon Papers for a similar case involving the Vietnam War and government leaks. I know the man is Australian, but I'm going to judge him by the American legal system.

However, what is NOT PROTECTED is divulging secrets that pose a national security threat. Like say the locations of HIGHLY IMPORTANT sites according to Homeland Security. If I was a terrorist (be it for Al-Qaeda, Neo-Nazi, IRA, etc.) then a list like that is essentially a travel log of where to commit the most horrific result. That's not freedom of the press, that's putting people's lives in danger. So please do not act all surprised when you see politicians in my country calling for his head, he's not some righteous savior...he's a fucking asshole

First of all.. his 'actions' are such that anyone of us could be accused of.. this is just a massive smear campaign being organised and funded by the people he is outing....In this day and age you REALLY should be more aware of the lies and methods used against people to keep them quiet or to distract PEOPLE LIKE YOU away from what is REALLY going on. You should start thinkig for yourself instead of swallowing what the establishment throws at you.

Secondly.. of all the shit you have seen and read about the details of what is being revealed by this peson.. ARE YOU REALLY SURE that we shouldn't know about this.. and if we do all just BURY OUR HEADS IN THE SAND who will stop things from getting worse, a TRUE FASCIST SOCIETY..because they are certainly not going to get any better.

As for the arguement 'but people are going to be harmed.. waaaa'.. really?.. then they shouldn't be involved.. THAT is what is causing 'harm' to come to them, not the revelations them self.

Assange is a BLOODY HERO, because he knew fine well he would be roasted,(regardless of his current legal status) and Anonymous are the only ones left who have the balls and resources to stick up for our rights (granted them may have more chaotic motives.. but the result is the same.)

There are some things that NEED to stay secret. At least for now. No justice is being done by leaking ongoing, or soon to be under way operations in the middle east, which could have cost a lot of lives. Also, a lot of this stuff with all of the nuclear bombs, we are all better off not knowing.

Our tax dollars are funding the war, we have a right to know what is really going on.

 

[thethingthatlurks]

It's interesting. So let me get this right. A sexual predator gets his hands on classified documents. Releases them all over... So the source has no credibility. So he has junk documents. But the world over not just the USA takes these notes people. If you meet with this Middle Eastern King, he hates cocopuffs and mention of Lady Gaga.

He's being accused, he hasn't been convicted of anything yet. Get your facts straight.

Thing is, short of the nightmare court martials that will happen when Wikileaks is busted this so called Tony Hawk, Against the man crusader of truth....
Well seriously, we as the public in all countries are normally Naive and fairly stupid on matters of our government. What we demand the "right" to know, we don't have the right. Nor the good sense to keep it, well secret.

If you pay taxes, you have a right to know everything. I'm guessing you don't, because making such a statement would otherwise be really retarded.

I would bet a nice cool Billion dollars, if we released on the news to the UK, USA, ect say.... a critcial troop location. In four hours, someone would send it public to the world. And that rejared (yeah new word kids)idiot would be the Tony Hawk hero of fighting the man, and secret government plots...and good chance that info will be used against that base, then all of a sudden it's not their fault and everyone had a right to know?

And what would be so terrible about that? Military bases aren't exactly easy to hide, nor are powerplants, airports, railway lines, ports, and government buildings. As far as knowing what is going on inside said base, see point number 1.

Why? See little things like this used to get the death sentence for treason, now we just let it go. Dipsticks country of resident is now responcible for his basic espionage against everyone he has a file to.

Hm, because it isn't treason? Espionage, maybe, but only by the original hacker. If stuff like this were a capital offense, you would never have heard of things like Watergate.

What stops him from making his own with a copied letter head and sparking all out war?
The UK has a document when a gas heater exploded in Yemmstan it wasn't a accident but a missile fired at the Yemmstan leader Snickerwuffen. No facts, no evidence, barely even able to string the random gas heater explosion....

Wow, now you're being quite the conspiracy theorist, ain't ya? A counter question: what's stopping leader from country A to nuke country B because he doesn't like the haircut of country B's leader? Common sense, that's what...

Seriously most the documents about Iraq and Afgan are all trash communications...the fact one nation is allowing a citizen to make a living selling other nations secrets to the public eye is just fucked up. And that nation better get its act together before every other nations business brings action against them.

I'm having some trouble understanding what you wrote, and not just due to the ludicrous number of grammatical mistakes. Are you decrying the fact that somebody can make a living by hosting information on the internet? Well, welcome to the 21st century!
In summary, you are an idiot, and that's putting it kindly. I'm guessing you're just some bored troll with nothing better to do, but you may at least brush up on grammar. Remember, a well written troll post is more likely to elicit a response than one that looks like it was written by a four year old!

 

[qbanknight]

I'm sorry but to hell with this rapist. His alleged sexual-assault crime aside, the man has exposed HIGHLY classified material on the damn internet. No, I don't mean historical documents concerning the Iraq and Afghanistan Wars. Those documents are history are fully protected by the First Amendment's Freedom of the Press, look up the Pentagon Papers for a similar case involving the Vietnam War and government leaks. I know the man is Australian, but I'm going to judge him by the American legal system.

However, what is NOT PROTECTED is divulging secrets that pose a national security threat. Like say the locations of HIGHLY IMPORTANT sites according to Homeland Security. If I was a terrorist (be it for Al-Qaeda, Neo-Nazi, IRA, etc.) then a list like that is essentially a travel log of where to commit the most horrific result. That's not freedom of the press, that's putting people's lives in danger. So please do not act all surprised when you see politicians in my country calling for his head, he's not some righteous savior...he's a fucking asshole

Ha you actually believe the rape claims? Its utter bullshit and a smear campaign, dont fall for it.

He's given some of the most powerful people and governments in the world a bloody nose its no surprise their digging shit up on him. If other posters are to be believed, he's making sure stuff wont endanger peoples lives before its released.

Historical documents on the Iraq/Afgan war? Its still going on so its more than relevant. Oh and btw since when would the IRA want to go and blow shit up in America? What would be the point in that?

"Historical" means anything that has happened in the past. I said in clear simple terms in my post to read about the goddamn Pentagon Papers. The Papers were highly confidential information that detailed every failure about the Vietnam War up to 1971. One man had access to the thousands of Papers and gave them to the New York Times. The government back then tried to stop the newspaper from reprinting the papers

The SUPREME COURT, our highest court in the land, chose to honor the freedom of the press. They said specifically that no US servicemen were being put in danger by disseminating the Papers and no US Security interests were at stake. They considered the Papers to be describing "history" of a conflict that was ongoing at the time, much like our situation now. Some of Wikileaks information, like US paranoia over Russia, would be protected by this case known as New York Times v. United States. But disseminating a list detailing incredibly vital sites to counter-terrorists? You are jeopardizing people's lives at the point and the Supreme Court will not help you as an American citizen. Do your fucking homework kid. And yes, I'm fully aware that the idiot is not American, but as that is the country that is being offended by this idiot, I provided a legal analysis that treated him as such. And just to follow on that point, yes, non-Americans have enjoyed Constitutional guarantees as well in Hamdi v. Rumsfeld albeit for different reasons.

And by the way, Wikileaks not only revealed important facilities in America, but in UK and in many other countries. So yes, the radical-bombing members of the IRA could possibly use the list. Use your head.

 

[Dr Snakeman]

My thoughts on the subject are complicated.

I'm a believer in free speech, but as I understand this we're dealing with Wikileaks basically having engaged in intenational espianage to steal classified information and divulge it publically. That's something else entirely. Where I believe you have the right to say anything you want (barring martial law), even if I disagree with it, I believe goverments do need to keep secrets, and that full transparency is a bad thing.

Now, before anyone laughs or misunderstands this, I will say that if Wikileaks somehow got this information legitimatly that is something else entirely. I get the impression that this is not the case however.

I remember back when Tom Clancy first released "Hunt For Red October" there was a story going around about how he was approached by the goverment due to his possession of "classified" information about sub operations, and it turned out that the supposedly classified information was obtained from publically availible sources at the Library of Congress and he simply came accross it while doing research for the book.

If wikileaks obtained this information legally, from public sources, then it's a free speech issue. If the goverment(s) messed up, that is on them, not on wikileaks. If on the other hand these guys were breaking into classified systems, stealing documents, and/or finding ways to leverage and gain information from inside sources, then they are involved in criminal activity.

As far as the US calling for the deaths of those involved, I'll point out that it's not uncommon for the death penelty to be the punishment for spying and/or treason. All liberal rants aside, I don't consider this akin to a third world country putting a hit out on guys for writing and/or publishing books like "The Satanic Verses", this is a legitimate national security matter.

I support Anonymous on a lot of what they do, but in this case I just can't agree with them. Also I can't imagine Wikileaks was unaware of the risks when they decided to do this.

The sexual garbage is more or less irrelevent.

I *DO* understand how people in favor of full goverment transparency are going to disagree with me here. There are plenty of people who believe there should be no such thing as "top secret" or "classified" documents. I am not one of those people. In a perfect world such things would not be nessicary, but this isn't a perfect world. Outing military and spy operations, especially during a war, is not a good thing. You do that to any nation and you should expect some nasty backlash.

It's a matter of a lofty principle that our reality doesn't allow for.

God, I'm so glad you made this post so that I wouldn't have to think up all this myself. Yes. I fully agree. I love this country, and our right to freedom of information... but some things should not be known. The public has a right to know ALMOST everything. However, full transparency is the death of governments, and thereby the death of many, many people. Assange is treading on thin ice, especially considering his tendency to editorialize (Collateral "Murder", anyone?).

 

[phelan511]

I'm sorry but to hell with this rapist. His alleged sexual-assault crime aside, the man has exposed HIGHLY classified material on the damn internet. No, I don't mean historical documents concerning the Iraq and Afghanistan Wars. Those documents are history are fully protected by the First Amendment's Freedom of the Press, look up the Pentagon Papers for a similar case involving the Vietnam War and government leaks. I know the man is Australian, but I'm going to judge him by the American legal system.

However, what is NOT PROTECTED is divulging secrets that pose a national security threat. Like say the locations of HIGHLY IMPORTANT sites according to Homeland Security. If I was a terrorist (be it for Al-Qaeda, Neo-Nazi, IRA, etc.) then a list like that is essentially a travel log of where to commit the most horrific result. That's not freedom of the press, that's putting people's lives in danger. So please do not act all surprised when you see politicians in my country calling for his head, he's not some righteous savior...he's a fucking asshole

First of all.. his 'actions' are such that anyone of us could be accused of.. this is just a massive smear campaign being organised and funded by the people he is outing....In this day and age you REALLY should be more aware of the lies and methods used against people to keep them quiet or to distract PEOPLE LIKE YOU away from what is REALLY going on. You should start thinkig for yourself instead of swallowing what the establishment throws at you.

Secondly.. of all the shit you have seen and read about the details of what is being revealed by this peson.. ARE YOU REALLY SURE that we shouldn't know about this.. and if we do all just BURY OUR HEADS IN THE SAND who will stop things from getting worse, a TRUE FASCIST SOCIETY..because they are certainly not going to get any better.

As for the arguement 'but people are going to be harmed.. waaaa'.. really?.. then they shouldn't be involved.. THAT is what is causing 'harm' to come to them, not the revelations them self.

Assange is a BLOODY HERO, because he knew fine well he would be roasted,(regardless of his current legal status) and Anonymous are the only ones left who have the balls and resources to stick up for our rights (granted them may have more chaotic motives.. but the result is the same.)

You're joking right? I agree with your first statement, but you really think its totally ok and fine to just throw out information that you know damn well is like a terrorist wishlist? I can guarantee that any halfwit terrorist with an internet connection was probably crying tears of joy when they saw that. Saying that "they shouldn't be involved".... you going to tell some kid that when his mom or dad gets blown the hell up or shot in the head?

 

[Carlston]

It's interesting. So let me get this right. A sexual predator gets his hands on classified documents. Releases them all over... So the source has no credibility. So he has junk documents. But the world over not just the USA takes these notes people. If you meet with this Middle Eastern King, he hates cocopuffs and mention of Lady Gaga.

He's being accused, he hasn't been convicted of anything yet. Get your facts straight.


He's still a slime dirt, just from the data steals and the reposts.

Thing is, short of the nightmare court martials that will happen when Wikileaks is busted this so called Tony Hawk, Against the man crusader of truth....
Well seriously, we as the public in all countries are normally Naive and fairly stupid on matters of our government. What we demand the "right" to know, we don't have the right. Nor

the good sense to keep it, well secret.

If you pay taxes, you have a right to know everything. I'm guessing you don't, because making such a statement would otherwise be really retarded.


I pay my taxes and served in the military so i have a deeper view into this.

I would bet a nice cool Billion dollars, if we released on the news to the UK, USA, ect say.... a critcial troop location. In four hours, someone would send it public to the world. And that rejared (yeah new word kids)idiot would be the Tony Hawk hero of fighting the man, and secret government plots...and good chance that info will be used against that base, then all of a sudden it's not their fault and everyone had a right to know?

And what would be so terrible about that? Military bases aren't exactly easy to hide, nor are powerplants, airports, railway lines, ports, and government buildings. As far as knowing what is going on inside said base, see point number 1.

Why? See little things like this used to get the death sentence for treason, now we just let it go. Dipsticks country of resident is now responcible for his basic espionage against everyone he has a file to.

Hm, because it isn't treason? Espionage, maybe, but only by the original hacker. If stuff like this were a capital offense, you would never have heard of things like Watergate.

What stops him from making his own with a copied letter head and sparking all out war?
The UK has a document when a gas heater exploded in Yemmstan it wasn't a accident but a missile fired at the Yemmstan leader Snickerwuffen. No facts, no evidence, barely even able to string the random gas heater explosion....

Wow, now you're being quite the conspiracy theorist, ain't ya? A counter question: what's stopping leader from country A to nuke country B because he doesn't like the haircut of country B's leader? Common sense, that's what...

Tell that to Korea and Iran who's only common sense is stepping up what they can get away with and hoping the UN backs down.

Seriously most the documents about Iraq and Afgan are all trash communications...the fact one nation is allowing a citizen to make a living selling other nations secrets to the public eye is just fucked up. And that nation better get its act together before every other nations business brings action against them.

I'm having some trouble understanding what you wrote, and not just due to the ludicrous number of grammatical mistakes. Are you decrying the fact that somebody can make a living by hosting information on the internet? Well, welcome to the 21st century!
In summary, you are an idiot, and that's putting it kindly. I'm guessing you're just some bored troll with nothing better to do, but you may at least brush up on grammar. Remember, a well written troll post is more likely to elicit a response than one that looks like it was written by a four year old!

If anything I'll just report ya troll boy. See, I am a disabled vet, and I gave a good chunk of my health, mind and body to my nation. Oh the meds I have for stoke, cancer and just general pain... I don't have to make you happy with a spell checker cause well...

You don't matter. What kind of troll takes a intelligent debate and whines about a typo because they can't counter debate without insults. A troll, like you.

Have a nice day ;p

 

[Orcus The Ultimate]

Hell yeah anon. You stick it too em good. This is a matter of free speech and justice. This is big. If Assange goes down for this then shits gonna get real. People will not be happy, inc me.

Operation Payback-FollowFreeman is ON !!!!!

 

[Michael826]

WikiLeaks was heralded when it was going after warlords and dodgy Russians, but it hangs out the West's dirty laundry and all of a sudden it's 'death to Assange'. Bloody hypocracy, if you ask me.

Heh. Some ask for honesty in journalism, and this is what we get.

This pretty much sums up my opinion on the matter. This is the reason why honest journalism is few and far between nowadays. It's somewhat depressing.

 

[The Long Road]

Any argument that says the exposing of these documents is a good thing shows a complete lack of respect and humility towards the people who are actually in the line of fire. Not just American and other NATO troops (because I know there are people here who couldn't give two shits about them), but the Afghani and Pakistani civilians who live with this war every day.

To put this in perspective to the average citizen, pretend the Cold War never ended. Pretend that, given a good mathematic chance of victory, one country or another would launch massive thermonuclear weapons at their enemy, who would counterattack with the same. Now your life is in the hands of the people who have all the missiles. An intelligence leak in a time like that would earn the hatred of an entire nation, because they were the ones put at risk. Mr. Assange would not be getting the assistance of Anon, he'd be getting a bullet to the head, courtesy of a Navy SEAL, Green Beret, or someone working for a three-letter agency. And you, reader, would be glad to hear about it on the nightly news.

Now put yourself in the shoes of an Afghani civilian who has told the local troops that insurgents are hiding in Building X or Ravine Y. All you wanted was to be able to walk down Main Street without fearing for your life. Now your name is on the Internet for those people to read. You can be sure that someone from this group will come calling.

The vengeful, show-those-fuckers-we're-serious side of me wants to see him torn inside out, but the more rational side of me wants him to be tried for treason by a fair court. I'd like to see him have an excellent criminal defense attorney and be given every chance to prove himself innocent, should he truly be so. I doubt he will be, and his punishment should fit other treason convictions.

(For those American Gov't sticklers out there, and I know you're there, I'm aware that the Senate tries treason cases, but I'm being idealistic)

 

[Loonerinoes]

Well...I guess we're about to see if all this drama and attention will do any good...or if the powers-that-be will just keep on doing whatever they want to.

Much luck to Assange really and much lulz to Anonymous' efforts seems to be the most appropriate thing for me to say however.

EDIT: To all of the people who'd have him go down for treason. I wonder how you'd react if it was China's secrets that he was leaking. Yeah...you'd be behind him 100% then, wouldn't you, you hypocrites? Same action, but it just so happens to go against a group you don't associate with heh...how I still love patriotic people that need to learn the one basic rule - every nation today has dirt that badly needs airing. And without efforts like those of Wikileaks, it will likely never get aired - EVER. Meaning our future generations will never get to learn from our mistakes.

And that's a far greater tragedy really than anything else that's being thrown at national levels I think.