Another Incident in Portland

lil devils x

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You kid yourself.

You know if that's what happened, the first laws passed would be to make private contractors "performing work on behalf of the US or local government" (which would effectively be all their work, even if they're charging you for breathing in the nice part of town) have qualified immunity and establishing a government slush fund to help them in their new role as a public service. They'd privatize the police giving all the worst aspects of privatization while keeping all the worst aspects of a public body.
I don't even want to think about how bad police privatization would turn out.. just look at the monstrosity that is private prisons.
 

Revnak

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If you are able to sue them, they will not be working anymore, and chances are there is no way they are going to have savings or any assets with that low of pay. They may be able to rent a cheap one bedroom apartment, but they certainly are not going to save any money that way and when they are out of work for whatever they did that you are suing them for, you may as well be suing a homeless person. Cops DO get fired if the courts rule against them. Just usually that doesn't happen if they can bury disciplinary reports without other action taken. This being a right to work state, Unions do not have the teeth they do in other states.

I also think you are underestimating the cost of living. Why is their pay listed so low on the other site? Either way, Where exactly can they afford to support a family here making less than 70K? How much of their income is expected to be paid in rent? They aren't going to buy a home for that. Then when you look at things like them paying child support and other obligations, they wind up moving back in with their parents like the cop that was yelling at the other cop for putting his laundry in the parking lot when they pulled over his mom doing his laundry.
Do you get what a median is? Do you realize that means half of everyone, *everyone,* makes less than them? Half of families figure this out. I figure this out. My brother figures this out. My parents figure this out. Everyone else has to figure this out, how to survive in our fucked up world. Maybe show sympathy first for the over half of society that makes less than cops who cops fuck over every goddamn day rather than cops?
 
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lil devils x

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Do you get what a median is? Do you realize that means half of everyone, *everyone,* makes less than them? Half of families figure this out. I figure this out. My brother figures this out. My parents figure this out. Everyone else has to figure this out, how to survive in our fucked up world. Maybe show sympathy first for the over half of society that makes less than cops who cops fuck over every goddamn day rather than cops?
1) "Maybe show some sympathy" Did you forget who you are talking to here? I have been screaming forever about low wages and " slave wages" and how just raising minimum wage isn't going to solve the problems we have now. A living wage means to be able to afford to support your family in the region you work on the income you are paid PLUS being able to save for retirement. I have more than "sympathy", I have been actively trying to change this for years for everyone, not just cops. I am 100% on board with requiring CEO pay percentages being determined by the employees pay so that they have an incentive to pay employees more. This on top of giving workers part ownership of the business so they share in the profits.

2) You have to add in compensation for the risks for the job as well. I have been calling for " hazard pay" for essential workers, not just police for while now. Police need that on top of compensation for the risks and injuries they incur for having to confront rapists, abusers and murderers, including the PTSD and other psychological trauma they may incur. They also need to be paid for time off to see a counselor and take time off after violent confrontations. IF we want cops to be clear headed while they are working to reduce the chances of mistakes and have time to cool off from psychological traumatizing events without losing the ability to pay for a roof over their heads.
Most jobs do not have these extreme working conditions or result in murderers seeking to kill you and your family just because you did your job.
 

Revnak

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1) "Maybe show some sympathy" Did you forget who you are talking to here? I have been screaming forever about low wages and " slave wages" and how just raising minimum wage isn't going to solve the problems we have now. A living wage means to be able to afford to support your family in the region you work on the income you are paid PLUS being able to save for retirement. I have more than "sympathy", I have been actively trying to change this for years for everyone, not just cops. I am 100% on board with requiring CEO pay percentages being determined by the employees pay so that they have an incentive to pay employees more. This on top of giving workers part ownership of the business so they share in the profits.

2) You have to add in compensation for the risks for the job as well. I have been calling for " hazard pay" for essential workers, not just police for while now. Police need that on top of compensation for the risks and injuries they incur for having to confront rapists, abusers and murderers, including the PTSD and other psychological trauma they may incur. They also need to be paid for time off to see a counselor and take time off after violent confrontations. IF we want cops to be clear headed while they are working to reduce the chances of mistakes and have time to cool off from psychological traumatizing events without losing the ability to pay for a roof over their heads.
Most jobs do not have these extreme working conditions or result in murderers seeking to kill you and your family just because you did your job.
Ok, should pizza delivery workers get paid above median wages given they have higher fatality rates than the police and work extremely stressful jobs?
 

tstorm823

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Ok, should pizza delivery workers get paid above median wages given they have higher fatality rates than the police and work extremely stressful jobs?
Pizza delivery workers ideally shouldn't have so dangerous a job. If only we had a force of people dedicated to suppressing people who attack and steal from people innocently doing their job.
 

Revnak

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Pizza delivery workers ideally shouldn't have so dangerous a job. If only we had a force of people dedicated to suppressing people who attack and steal from people innocently doing their job.
I normally don’t care to engage you but the actual reason their job is dangerous is because they’re in a car all day. Same reason truckers are up there.
Edit - I imagine if we had clearer statistics on police fatalities the same would show for them tbh. Driving is hilariously dangerous.
Edit2 - finally, the efficacy of the police at crime prevention is highly questionable. Tough on crime policing doesn’t appear to have much correlation with declines in violent crime. The more significant correlation is various sorts of social stratification and education. The anomalous conditions of the 80’s/early 90’s regarding crack being brought into the inner cities by our own federal agencies are a factor of course.
 
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Trunkage

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Pizza delivery workers ideally shouldn't have so dangerous a job. If only we had a force of people dedicated to suppressing people who attack and steal from people innocently doing their job.
Yep, imagine that... wouldn't it be wonderful...

What you do have is a force of people who definitely don't do that
 
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Silvanus

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1) "Maybe show some sympathy" Did you forget who you are talking to here? I have been screaming forever about low wages and " slave wages" and how just raising minimum wage isn't going to solve the problems we have now. A living wage means to be able to afford to support your family in the region you work on the income you are paid PLUS being able to save for retirement. I have more than "sympathy", I have been actively trying to change this for years for everyone, not just cops. I am 100% on board with requiring CEO pay percentages being determined by the employees pay so that they have an incentive to pay employees more. This on top of giving workers part ownership of the business so they share in the profits.

2) You have to add in compensation for the risks for the job as well. I have been calling for " hazard pay" for essential workers, not just police for while now. Police need that on top of compensation for the risks and injuries they incur for having to confront rapists, abusers and murderers, including the PTSD and other psychological trauma they may incur. They also need to be paid for time off to see a counselor and take time off after violent confrontations. IF we want cops to be clear headed while they are working to reduce the chances of mistakes and have time to cool off from psychological traumatizing events without losing the ability to pay for a roof over their heads.
Most jobs do not have these extreme working conditions or result in murderers seeking to kill you and your family just because you did your job.

The fact that the police already receive relatively high rates of pay suggests that wage does not adequately address the core problem. We know this well enough from other high-risk, high-stress, relatively well-paid professions as well, such as specialist doctors.

What these professions require is a well-built professional support network. You mentioned counselling; that needs to be radically expanded, alongside much greater oversight and transparency. And that needs to be a much higher priority than raising pay.

Stress and threat can inure people to violence, which can leads to committing abuse-- and that needs to be counteracted with extensive prevention strategies. Frequent check-ins, oversight, mandatory debriefing, counselling, HR availability.
 

lil devils x

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The fact that the police already receive relatively high rates of pay suggests that wage does not adequately address the core problem. We know this well enough from other high-risk, high-stress, relatively well-paid professions as well, such as specialist doctors.

What these professions require is a well-built professional support network. You mentioned counselling; that needs to be radically expanded, alongside much greater oversight and transparency. And that needs to be a much higher priority than raising pay.

Stress and threat can inure people to violence, which can leads to committing abuse-- and that needs to be counteracted with extensive prevention strategies. Frequent check-ins, oversight, mandatory debriefing, counselling, HR availability.
They don't receive relatively high rates of pay. Not when you put it in perspective of a living wage for the city they work in. They cannot even afford to live in the city they work in. They often are forced to work tons of overtime and not able to take time off as needed just to keep a roof over their heads and that is part of the problem. I already stated pay was not all of the solution here though. They have to bring in social workers and psychiatrists not only for responding to the public, but for the cops themselves. I completely agree on the impact of stress, that is what I have been repeatedly stating throughout this discussion.

When you look at their pay vs cost of living where they are supposed to work:
How much does it take to afford to live in LA?

"Want to buy a house? You’ll need to make at least $127,200 to own one in Los Angeles County, according to a new report from the California Association of Realtors.

That’s the salary needed to qualify for a mortgage for a single-family home at the county’s median price point of $649,570. The monthly payment, assuming a 20 percent down payment and an interest rate of 3.85 percent, would be $3,180, excluding taxes and insurance, according to the association."

median rent for a two-bedroom in Los Angeles is $2,480 per month, and will require $99,200 ($2,480 x 40) to secure. That’s about 168% of the LA median household income."


LAPD Annual Salaries - January 2015- $59,717- $70,136.

It''s not even a living wage. They cannot support their families on that or even move out of the ghetto. That is why they keep working so much overtime and unable to leave when they really need to do so for their own psychological health. This is not all though of course, they need actual oversight and a redefinition of their role that I went into more detail here on already:

 

lil devils x

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Ok, should pizza delivery workers get paid above median wages given they have higher fatality rates than the police and work extremely stressful jobs?
Yea, I think any type of delivery driver, not just pizza, deserve hazard pay. The hazard pay that a job requires is determined by the risks of that job. Other industries, such as a the metal workers union have obtained these things, we need to instead have a universal pay policy that covers the hazards of whatever the job is. People who want to sit in a cush office job and not have the risks associated with a job that receives hazard pay, they would not qualify for the same hazard pay that someone who is working in construction or EMT, Police, delivery drivers, Emergency rooms, metal workers ect.. The amount received would be determined by the job they are expected to perform and the risks involved.

I actually do agree they should receive hazard pay. I have been calling for that very thing for essential workers and delivery drivers are also essential workers. Most pizza drivers do not even make a living wage as it is and they barely manage to cover car maintenance, if their cars break down though, they are screwed because they do not earn enough to live and repair their vehicles.
 

lil devils x

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You think that's the reason they commute?
We also have cops who do not want to live in the same area they police because they worry about their off duty safety of their families. Though they are also forced to live in the suburbs because they still live with their parents because they don't make enough money to live. They cannot afford to live in either place they work regardless unless they police the ghetto. Then being a cop and living in the ghetto you police can get you killed when your neighbors decided you pissed them off.
 
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Silvanus

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median rent for a two-bedroom in Los Angeles is $2,480 per month, and will require $99,200 ($2,480 x 40) to secure. That’s about 168% of the LA median household income."
L.A. required forty months rent up-front in order to secure a rented flat? That's absolutely insane if true. Here in London, which is notoriously expensive, it's usually about three months' rent.
 

lil devils x

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L.A. required forty months rent up-front in order to secure a rented flat? That's absolutely insane if true. Here in London, which is notoriously expensive, it's usually about three months' rent.
There is a reason why there is a serious housing and homeless problem in LA. Across the US though, it is just getting worse. People tend to think of homeless as primarily being those with substance abuse or mental health issues. Now, those with medical disabilities are the largest group, thus will likely never be able to work again and families who can't even afford drugs even if they wanted them, people who have never used drugs and do not have any mental health issues, just the cost of living is too high for them to afford to live anywhere. This is getting worse all across the US and has for years. Homeless was at it's lowest point in a decade in 2015 right before Trump took office, it has been drastically increasing every year since Trump has been in office due to Trumps reversal of Obama programs that were helping the problem and Trump isn't interested in addressing the issue at all.
 

lil devils x

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Why would they worry, isn't the police there to keep them safe?
You don't expect the department to be parked outside their door while they sleep. If someone really wants to kill you or your family, they will. Criminals are opportunists, they wait until your guard is down to attack. The police can only do something about that which they are informed is going to happen. They can't do anything about something when they are not notified in time to get there.

If we all had a policeman in our pockets, I wouldn't have to worry about the guy who said he gets off on watching the lights go out of a woman's eyes while he is choking her or the man who stabbed my neighbor trying to break into my place to kill me either. Would be nice though wouldn't it?
 

ObsidianJones

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We also have cops who do not want to live in the same area they police because they worry about their off duty safety of their families. Though they are also forced to live in the suburbs because they still live with their parents because they don't make enough money to live. They cannot afford to live in either place they work regardless unless they police the ghetto. Then being a cop and living in the ghetto you police can get you killed when your neighbors decided you pissed them off.
Actually, there's also a matter of the Police Departments not wanting people who live in certain communities. I had my pick of the boroughs when I was applying for the NYPD because I lived in a suburb of Manhattan.

But my friend who lived in the Bronx was told quite plainly that he was not going to be stationed in the Bronx. Due to 'not wanting fraternization'.