I'd honestly like to see those surveys. See who administered them, the questions asked and such. There is a very long history of surveys on this subject being incredibly biased just in the way or manner they asked questions. Also, an old southern senator is not a proper gauge for the education and beliefs of the younger generation of America, the ones you can still legitimately plan to educate. Sure the attitude hasn't entirely disappeared because the people who use to practice it haven't died yet, and haven't decided to continue educating themselves. This isn't a question of martial rape though. If your wearing this underwear around your spouse to protect you from your spouse, something has CLEARLY gone quite wrong long before that point.thaluikhain said:
Anti-Rape underwear
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Yes, that was my point. And I pretty sure I either said that directly or implied it heavily in my previous post.th3dark3rsh33p said:
Um, actually it has. We as a society value life more now than we did 100 years ago (to say nothing of a few hundred years before that!) and the percent of people killing one another has gone down.th3dark3rsh33p said:
Furthermore, in locations where people are taught - not necessarily directly, but by the society around them - that life is cheap, painful, or worthless, murder is more frequent.
And anyway, I never said anything about teaching people "not to rape" - as that's a very silly thing to teach. The Education we keep talking about is teaching a woman's right to say no. The people who need education are those who don't think a woman can or should have that right.
The idea was to prevent the emotional situation from occurring in the first place, not to overcome anger in the moment.
Except that the education system is often directly undermined by society. Case in point, another example: people are told that being smart is good and that grades matter. However, society also teaches them that nerds are uncool, that studying is lame, and than athletes without college educations are super important people. In that example, kids are getting two very different messages.th3dark3rsh33p said:
In our society, kids are told that "no means no" - but many are also taught by society that a woman who won't put out is a prude, that jocks always get laid, and that alcohol makes girls "give it up". Society says that women have to "out out" after the third date.
Thus, when a woman attempts to exercise her right to say no, sometimes all that weight of social obligation that has been taught to us outside of school comes crashing down and causes the emotional situation.
The education that we're talking about is a change to these social attitudes - or at least a clearer education about these assumptions and why they are wrong.
And again, just because YOUR school or upbringing told you that no meant no, not everyone's did. There are a lot of places in the USA - to say nothing of the rest of the world - where that message is NOT conveyed to people. You are assuming that everyone has had the same education - both in school and outside it - that you have. That is a faulty assumption.
Edit:
Oh, one final thing. I went back to read your original post that started this argument and... I actually mostly agree with you. I think there is a lot of fear-mongering over rape. The media in recent decades has capitalized on an unfortunate situation to get ratings/hits by playing up fears about rape.
Hence why I don't think I'd actually ever own or wear a pair of these things. I think they're a good idea because they exist mostly to let the wearer not worry about a situation that probably won't happen, but that's harmless enough. They even say that they're designed to reduce fear since the actual likelihood of a rape attempt is low.
There were a few times when I was back in undergrad college that I wish I'd had a pair of these things so I wouldn't have been irrationally afraid. Looking back, I feel kinda silly about that, but they really would have helped get over my fears.
Thus, I do think this product is valuable. Silly, but valuable.
Oh, and I also agree with Nora Shepard about one specific point - they would be good for wearing to college parties. The TYPE of rape that occurs at a college party (with drunk men and unconscious women) would greatly benefit from super difficult to remove panties. Drunk guys are not known for manual dexterity.
See I was going to do a bunch of specific quotes but then I realized that we agreed on most everything.Bara_no_Hime said:
Only real point of disagreement is I don't think society really seriously believes all these things about a girl needs to put out or entitlement to sex is farcical at best. Every time I see that portrayed in popular culture it's usually to paint the person who believes it as a dumb ass jock who only thinks with his dick. I also feel the life being cheap idea is problematic because most humans have a hard time killing/harming other humans. Most will kill/harm/take if the need is high enough which is more likely to happen in a situation where there is abysmal poverty. The reduction in crime in general is more due to increased wealth then an increase in education, though to the two tend to be intertwined so I can see arguments for the other.
I do agree that my education is anecdotal at best though. I've had a mixture of private and public schooling, so my views on how people educate is a bit suspect. Still I find it hard that it was -that- much different, that I attended the small minority of schools that actually taught a decent sex ed.
I wonder what this will be like 50 years in the future.Colour Scientist said:
"remember women, if you don't wear your power armor when you go outside you're practically begging for it"
Like I'm seriously curious how recently a court legitimately used that as evidence. Honestly this gets thrown around a lot and I'm just curious how recently this was a thing.Use_Imagination_here said:
I can't really see these having much practical use aside from giving paranoid women a false sense of security. To my understanding a majority of rapes aren't some guy tackling a woman, dragging her into an alley then holding her down and violating her, which is really the only scenario I could see this preventing.
To be honest, I'd think if you got raped while wearing something like this, it would possibly help the rapists case if he managed to get them off without physically damaging them. And if your definition of rape extends to consensual sex under the influence, it would hurt the woman's case in that scenario too. It's a lot easier to claim sex is consensual if the woman is wearing combination lock underwear.
To be honest, I'd think if you got raped while wearing something like this, it would possibly help the rapists case if he managed to get them off without physically damaging them. And if your definition of rape extends to consensual sex under the influence, it would hurt the woman's case in that scenario too. It's a lot easier to claim sex is consensual if the woman is wearing combination lock underwear.
As someone living in LA who has idly entertained the thought of buying Men in Tights style underwear so I could live in Echo Park, I see this as mostly a sad by product of a violent society. Yes, we have made huge strides as a whole in regards to equality, etc, but as previously noted rape notoriously is borne of familiarity. I don't think this concept would help with that, nor do I see it as terribly productive in regards to any other kind of assault. I'm assuming people like me are the target client, and while I appreciate the sentiment, I don't think a product like this will work.
http://www.smh.com.au/nsw/rape-of-woman-in-skinny-jeans-not-possible-20100430-tzai.htmlth3dark3rsh33p said:
http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/worldnews/europe/italy/2447225/Italy-overturns-ruling-that-women-wearing-tight-jeans-cannot-be-raped.html
Fairly recently, a least in part.
However, those are just explicit examples, not where they were quietly a factor.
Mixed feelings.
It's nice that someone's taking an initiative to reduce rape rate (of people who wear these undies) in a not really provocative way.
But I feel like it might unintentionally make some women even more paranoid about rape.
I'm not a woman, so feel free to ignore my opinion.
I guess if you are a woman and don't want to be raped, you can attach a mouse trap around your groin.
It's nice that someone's taking an initiative to reduce rape rate (of people who wear these undies) in a not really provocative way.
But I feel like it might unintentionally make some women even more paranoid about rape.
I'm not a woman, so feel free to ignore my opinion.
I guess if you are a woman and don't want to be raped, you can attach a mouse trap around your groin.
I think it's a nice idea. The only thing is that I worry about the marketing campaign for this product. I mean, this product will not sell unless women are scared of being raped, so unless this company has good intentions they might put some unnecessary fears in the minds of women so their product sells. However, rape is still an issue in the USA and this project has my support (for the time being).
I'm actually kind of surprised and disgusted at the guys that are shrugging this off as if it's some kind of new electric toothbrush or backscratcher; that behavior reminds me of the feminists that claim to care about but completely ignore mens' issues. Yea, you guys don't have to worry about it so you can easily shrug it off, but rape is a serious issue for women that seems blown out of proportion, and might be, but it's still an issue and you shouldn't toss it aside like a used tissue when it's still happening as often as it does. I know some women that have confided in me about being raped, and while this product would not have helped either of them, it still would be a good thing to have because it might help some other poor woman.
I don't want to sound like some self-righteous jerk like Steve Harvey or Jeremy Kyle that talks down to men for not being chivalrous, but seriously guys; just because an issue doesn't affect you doesn't mean it doesn't exist and doesn't need to be addressed. Blown out of proportion maybe, but all the more reason to address it so the media can move on to the next thing.
I'm actually kind of surprised and disgusted at the guys that are shrugging this off as if it's some kind of new electric toothbrush or backscratcher; that behavior reminds me of the feminists that claim to care about but completely ignore mens' issues. Yea, you guys don't have to worry about it so you can easily shrug it off, but rape is a serious issue for women that seems blown out of proportion, and might be, but it's still an issue and you shouldn't toss it aside like a used tissue when it's still happening as often as it does. I know some women that have confided in me about being raped, and while this product would not have helped either of them, it still would be a good thing to have because it might help some other poor woman.
I don't want to sound like some self-righteous jerk like Steve Harvey or Jeremy Kyle that talks down to men for not being chivalrous, but seriously guys; just because an issue doesn't affect you doesn't mean it doesn't exist and doesn't need to be addressed. Blown out of proportion maybe, but all the more reason to address it so the media can move on to the next thing.
Of course, it's stupid that women have to protect themselves from rape, and it's never your fault. There's no such thing as "asking for it". I wish I could live in a society where I wouldn't have to be scared when I go home late at night. However, this is not a perfect society, and while we can try to teach people that rape is wrong, there will be more rapes and assaults in the future. I hate how people worry when a girl goes home alone at night, but it's just the way it is. I can go home alone if I want to with my head help up high thinking "It's never my fault", but that isn't going to help me when I'm being dragged into the bushes. I'll still be a victim, regardless of whose fault it is.
My stepmother told me that when she had her daughter she thought "should I teach her to be scared of men? Should I teach her martial arts?" but in the end she told her daughter to have confidence and give others the body language of "You shouldn't mess with me". Apart from sexist comments on the street (and pretty much every woman deals with that), she has never been harassed or anything of the sort. If supposedly "rape-proof panties" help with giving you that kind of confidence they are in my opinion a good thing. If they really do work? Even better.
I really would love to live in a society where rape doesn't happen, but the world is just unfair. Rape is never your fault, but until rape and/or murder doesn't exist anymore, I'm afraid things like this will have to be invented for the sake of protecting women.
My stepmother told me that when she had her daughter she thought "should I teach her to be scared of men? Should I teach her martial arts?" but in the end she told her daughter to have confidence and give others the body language of "You shouldn't mess with me". Apart from sexist comments on the street (and pretty much every woman deals with that), she has never been harassed or anything of the sort. If supposedly "rape-proof panties" help with giving you that kind of confidence they are in my opinion a good thing. If they really do work? Even better.
I really would love to live in a society where rape doesn't happen, but the world is just unfair. Rape is never your fault, but until rape and/or murder doesn't exist anymore, I'm afraid things like this will have to be invented for the sake of protecting women.
None of these are in the Americas, and the one in Europe was upheld for the stupidity of the argument. Along with that the argument was not, she was wearing skinny jeans so she deserved it. It was, she was wearing skinny jeans therefore it would take her consent for them to be removed. An incredibly stupid argument, no doubt, but an argument of a very desperate defendant trying to argue consent not she was asking for it.thaluikhain said:
The issue is that it is not legal in many places outside the US to have one of those.Imperius said:
Hopefully this doesn't end up like the LifeLock challenge where people fucked with their security just to show how vulnerable it was.
I'm all for women feeling more safe, and there's still the alternatives of mace, tasers, and firearms available. I'd rather have a product that does physical harm to the attempted raper than something that will frustrate them and probably lead their sick mind to do something else with the victim.
I'm all for women feeling more safe, and there's still the alternatives of mace, tasers, and firearms available. I'd rather have a product that does physical harm to the attempted raper than something that will frustrate them and probably lead their sick mind to do something else with the victim.
As if there wasn't enough hysteria about rape. Congratulations company, yet another source encouraging women to be paranoid about a statistically very rare form of violent crime in order to extort money out of them. As if it suggests wearing these on a date! If you think it's likely that your date is a rapist, you don't go out with them. Utter hysterical nonsense. What next? Anti-Stab dresses? Bullet-proof bras? "Well young lady, it's better to wear your body armour on a first date, after all, we don't know whether or not Timmy is a homicidal maniac! Remember to take the Desert Eagle in your purse as well!"
Indeed, and I find that quite sad. Self-defense is a basic human right, not just an American one, and I say that an an Englishman who lives in the states.Boris Goodenough said:
Personally, I've gotten so used to carrying a firearm, I think even if I moved back to the UK or another country where it was illegal, I'd carry one anyway.
Yes self-defense is a human right however there is also a right to a fair trail which is kinda null-en void when you've elected yourself as judge jury and executioner.Imperius said:
I think you are over-reacting but I kinda see your point. Its a bit shady that companies intimidate you into buying their product through fear (probably the same tactics they used to market that lovely firearm posted above), its a well known fact that fear sells. Its also a bit weird that women are being told to wear these on a date, thats just fucked up. HOWEVER if there is a million to one chance she could be raped then I can fully understand why she isnt gonna take that chance, most of us enter the lottery in the off-chance we win a million so why not wear these in the off-chance that you might get rapedrandomrob said:
I know its a little unorthadox and im activating my flameshield as we speak. Why dont we legalise, regulate and control prostitution? Rapists who need to relieve there sexual desires can do so in a controlled way without having to resort to raping people on the street. Sure its not going to solve the problem but it may help