Apparently Braveheart is Anglophobic?

[Major_Tom]

People keep forgetting that nations, national identity and nationalism as we know them today didn't even exist more than 200 years ago. The "Scots" and the "English" as portrayed in the movie are a pure fantasy.

 

[O maestre]

Yes but from what I gathered some thought that they deliberately set out to portray English as the suck of the Earth. I personally think it's just an effect to add to the DRAMAS and have the token bad guys, so the audience knows who to root for.

Not seeing much distinction between the two there.

I meant that they portrayed the as the bad guys for dramatic effect not because they have some hateful agenda against English people. At least that's what I thought.

Well one could argue that Mel Gibson may have an agenda if you take his portrayal of the English in that American revolution movie he also made.

 

[Madcat75]

I'm pretty sure the Scots also count as Anglos.

The Scots, Welsh and Irish are Celts and the TRUE people of Britain, the English are the invaders, more closely related to the Germans and Nordic Races.

One day the Celts with unite, throw off the shackles of armed English opression and drive the invaders from our lands.

CYMRU AM BYTH!!
FE GODWN NI ETO!!

 

[Erttheking]

I'm pretty sure the Scots also count as Anglos.

The Scots, Welsh and Irish are Celts and the TRUE people of Britain, the English are the invaders, more closely related to the Germans and Nordic Races.

One day the Celts with unite, throw off the shackles of armed English opression and drive the invaders from our lands.

CYMRU AM BYTH!!
FE GODWN NI ETO!!

Technically the "true" people of Britain were the Britons, they were the first people to live on that land.

Then the Anglo-Saxons showed up and killed them all.

 

[JoJo]

I'm pretty sure the Scots also count as Anglos.

The Scots, Welsh and Irish are Celts and the TRUE people of Britain, the English are the invaders, more closely related to the Germans and Nordic Races.

One day the Celts with unite, throw off the shackles of armed English opression and drive the invaders from our lands.

CYMRU AM BYTH!!
FE GODWN NI ETO!!

Well, that's the traditional story. More recent genetic studies indicate that the Anglo-Saxon invasion assimilated rather than wiped out the existing Britons and so modern day indigenous English are still majority descended from the original people of the British Isles, same as the Celtic peoples. The difference in descent is marginal, 60% Briton on average for the English compared to 70% for the Welsh, if I remember correctly. We're all from the same stock really, the native ethnic groups of Britain and Ireland are primarily cultural. For example Lowland Scotland and much of Ireland was settled by Anglo-Saxons and Anglo-Normans respectively, just don't say that to their face ;-)

 

[Madcat75]

I'm pretty sure the Scots also count as Anglos.

The Scots, Welsh and Irish are Celts and the TRUE people of Britain, the English are the invaders, more closely related to the Germans and Nordic Races.

One day the Celts with unite, throw off the shackles of armed English opression and drive the invaders from our lands.

CYMRU AM BYTH!!
FE GODWN NI ETO!!

Technically the "true" people of Britain were the Britons, they were the first people to live on that land.

Then the Anglo-Saxons showed up and killed them all.

The original "Britons" were the Celtic people (Welsh, Scottish and Irish), until we were invaded by the English (Anglo Saxons) and had our lands stolen from us and pushed into the moutainous areas of the country.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Britons_%28Celtic_people%29

Rather like the Native Americans are the true people of America, until the Europeans (again Anglo Saxons) invaded and stole their lands and were pushed into small parts of their lands.

 

[Breakdown]

I'm pretty sure the Scots also count as Anglos.

The Scots, Welsh and Irish are Celts and the TRUE people of Britain, the English are the invaders, more closely related to the Germans and Nordic Races.

One day the Celts with unite, throw off the shackles of armed English opression and drive the invaders from our lands.

CYMRU AM BYTH!!
FE GODWN NI ETO!!

Well, that's the traditional story. More recent genetic studies indicate that the Anglo-Saxon invasion assimilated rather than wiped out the existing Britons and so modern day indigenous English are still majority descended from the original people of the British Isles, same as the Celtic peoples. The difference in descent is marginal, 60% Briton on average for the English compared to 70% for the Welsh, if I remember correctly. We're all from the same stock really, the native ethnic groups of Britain and Ireland are primarily cultural. For example Lowland Scotland and much of Ireland was settled by Anglo-Saxons and Anglo-Normans respectively, just don't say that to their face ;-)

I think a fair chunk of Ireland was invaded by the Vikings as well.

 

[Ambitiousmould]

Ah well, what are you going to do? Everyone hates the English, especially the Scottish and the Irish. And they bloody well should. We (not the living generations, or me personally, but in a general, historic sense) tried to wipe out both the Irish and the Scots several times. We probably tried with the Welsh too, but I'm not certain.

Plus the Israel-Palestine conflict is basically our fault. And what we did all over the African continent was pretty bad. And our colonisation of America was hardly nice and peaceful. Plus the fact that we have no culture whatsoever apart from racism and thuggery. Plus the fact that the Tories are in power, who are basically trying to subtly kill off everyone poorer than themselves, and explicitly trying to reduce the working classes with attempts to keep them out of education. And then the 3 parties that stand a chance to get into power are all disconnected posh twats with no idea about anything real because they all grew up on Daddy's money and wouldn't know a day's graft if it punched them in their whitened teeth, and at least one of them is blatantly racist.

Chuffing hell fire England is just shitty shitty shit shit shit.

EDIT: OK, yes some of that last paragraph was about the UK in general (the part about the political parties). That said, those parties are English, with English leaders, so frankly it's still our bloody fault. I'm really, really sorry, ok? Most of England are. Apologetic is our natural state.

 

[JoJo]

I'm pretty sure the Scots also count as Anglos.

The Scots, Welsh and Irish are Celts and the TRUE people of Britain, the English are the invaders, more closely related to the Germans and Nordic Races.

One day the Celts with unite, throw off the shackles of armed English opression and drive the invaders from our lands.

CYMRU AM BYTH!!
FE GODWN NI ETO!!

Well, that's the traditional story. More recent genetic studies indicate that the Anglo-Saxon invasion assimilated rather than wiped out the existing Britons and so modern day indigenous English are still majority descended from the original people of the British Isles, same as the Celtic peoples. The difference in descent is marginal, 60% Briton on average for the English compared to 70% for the Welsh, if I remember correctly. We're all from the same stock really, the native ethnic groups of Britain and Ireland are primarily cultural. For example Lowland Scotland and much of Ireland was settled by Anglo-Saxons and Anglo-Normans respectively, just don't say that to their face ;-)

I think a fair chunk of Ireland was invaded by the Vikings as well.

Yeah, those dudes got all over the place, settled much of northern England too. You can still see the effect on maps of hair colour in the British Isles to this day: generally the further east you go, the higher percentage of people are fair-haired in both Britain and Ireland. Look back a few generations and everyone in these islands is kin, even if we pretend we aren't.

Chuffing hell fire England is just shitty shitty shit shit shit.

Hey, it could be worse, we could be France

 

[Aurion]

A movie mythologizing about William Wallace has evil Englishmen.

Oh, the humanity.

I can only hope none of the people quoted in the OP ever saw the proto-Waffen SS in The Patriot.

 

[Zykon TheLich_v1legacy]

I'm really, really sorry, ok? Most of England are. Apologetic is our natural state.

I'm not, I don't give a fuck, I'd still oppress you and nick your country the moment your backs turned. My only regret is we failed.

 

[Nurb]

You really can't take any movie as historical fact. The time period is before tartans were a thing, and they left out the part about Wallace skinning the general he beheaded and making him into a belt.

 

[Aurion]

I'm really, really sorry, ok? Most of England are. Apologetic is our natural state.

You personally shouldn't be sorry or guilty or whatever the fuck.

Remember it happened and that it wasn't a good thing to repress and exploit millions of people, sure. That's not the same thing as feeling guilty/sorry/whatever. That's awareness.

Feeling bad about it won't unmake history.

 

[Recusant]

People keep forgetting that nations, national identity and nationalism as we know them today didn't even exist more than 200 years ago. The "Scots" and the "English" as portrayed in the movie are a pure fantasy.

No, just an exaggeration. You had rampant nationalism in far earlier times, too; just look at the territories of the Roman empire. Nor was that simple overweening pragmatism; look at "We are the Roman empire! No, really!" Byzantines. The idea has waxed and waned throughout history. True, you didn't have the die-hard, gung ho mentalities you do today, but that's a fry cry from there being nothing at all.

As to the movie- would I call it Anglophobic? Consider the target audience- most of them don't know the history. What they got was a depiction of a rather one-dimensional foreign invader attacking another country and being fended off by what were, to borrow a phrase from John Dryden, a pack of noble savages. It seems overly simplistic, I'm sure, but not condemnably so- not from a historical angle, anyway. If you do know the history- it seems laughably one-sided, especially given that the Scottish do tend to be the more sympathetic side.

 

[L. Declis]

You think that's bad? Wait until you start watching all those anti-English Irish films where ALL Englishmen are corrupt, all of them are roving bands of arsonists and murderers and all that can save them is generally some flavour of sweaky clean poor Irish lad from the countryside. Usually Liam Neelson.

Don't forget, boys, the IRA is nothing except brave freedom fighters who always gave the Brits a chance to fight fairly, ignore the dirty side of their dealings.

Also, I'm Scottish, but I do feel that the Brits and especially the English cop the most shit out of all the European powers who all did the colonialism thing.

Ah well, what are you going to do? Everyone hates the English, especially the Scottish and the Irish.

The Irish may, but as a Scotsman, we don't really hate the English. We detest the Tories, true, and we pretend to hate them as a kinda long-running joke (much like the general British and French relationship), but the days of actually hating each other has passed.

And they bloody well should. We (not the living generations, or me personally, but in a general, historic sense) tried to wipe out both the Irish and the Scots several times. We probably tried with the Welsh too, but I'm not certain.

Honestly, the English were rather lazy with wiping out the Scots. They kinda just ignored them for the most part, slapped them down when we got uppity, and then eventually bought us when our king kept spending money. Again, we're not Ireland.

Plus the Israel-Palestine conflict is basically our fault.

Oh, many people are at fault, not just the Brits (not the English, mind, all of us. Except the Irish, who were too cowardly to actually take part in the war and were too busy using this time of fighting the Nazis to start back-stabbing the Brits). We've got the French and Americans who agreed with us to shove the Jews there because none of us wanted to actually deal with all these displaced Jews, we've got the Muslims who were not happy with the arrangement, we've got the Jews who keep breaking their promise to not wipe the Muslims off the map and stealing their land, we've got the Americans still funnelling weapons to them, it's a whole fucking mess, but you cannot point at the Brits and say "Their fault". If anything, I'd say the Jews should have accepted a nice plot of land in the U.S. like what was suggested, but they wanted their holy land and at least the Brits were nice enough to oblidge.

And what we did all over the African continent was pretty bad.

Everyone was fucking around down there, and we've been doing so for thousands of years. Before we did, the Arabs and the Hellenics and the Romans and the Egyptians and the Carthaginians.

And during Colonialism, the Spanish, French and British all had a go. If you're discussing slavery, it's worth remembering three things:

1) The slave traders bought the slaves from the local black slave traders, who had been doing so since times of Darius I and selling to the Romans, Greeks, Muslims, Egyptians, etc, etc.
2) It was in France and Britain that slavery was quickly abolished and they were granted their freedom, slavery certainly never took off in Europe during those times

And our colonisation of America was hardly nice and peaceful.

Again, the Spanish and the French were involved. Why do they never get any of the blame?

And it was quite peaceful until tensions began to increase. It wasn't a one day decision "Let's go murder all the indians", it was a progression of unease that erupted into war, and at the time, we were simply better at it. Nations rise and fall. The colonisation of Britain under Rome was hardly nice and peaceful, but I don't see us throwing crap at the Italians.

Plus the fact that we have no culture whatsoever apart from racism and thuggery.

You know, apart from our literature, our art, our science, our history. Byson, SHakespeare, Austen, the Beatles, Isaac Newton, the Queen, Henry VIII, the Titanic, tea, politeness, classism, the NHS, Keep Calm and Put Slogan Here, etc.

Regarding racism, we were one of the kinder colonial powers, we've parted peacefully with most of them, we retain good relations with them, we've traded with them for thousands of years, they have fought with us in many wars including two World Wars, we forbade slavery quickly, we allowed the natives to be educated in our universities for most of the time, hell, Ghandi was educated here. Believe it or not, we didn't just kick puppies over there.

Thuggery? You do know the Bill is a program, and not real life? Crime has been falling for years.

Politics

Not even going to deal with this, politics is politics. Also, you do know that racism towards them is still racism even if they are racist?

Chuffing hell fire England is just shitty shitty shit shit shit.

I don't know, I've lived in a few countries in the world, I don't think England is that bad, I can see why so many people want to move there.

EDIT: OK, yes some of that last paragraph was about the UK in general (the part about the political parties). That said, those parties are English, with English leaders, so frankly it's still our bloody fault. I'm really, really sorry, ok? Most of England are. Apologetic is our natural state.

Feel free to run for politics, I'm sure you'll do a far better job, my English hating fellow.

 

[The Harkinator]

Anglophobic is a bit strong, the film just has every English character be cartoonishly evil and flat out lies about various things that happened. There's also a series of portrayals that can be described as character assassinations, creating personality traits and inventing actions to make the English seem even more evil. But it's not some massive attack on England. Despite being (loosely) based on a real person, Braveheart is a work of fiction. It makes things up for the purpose of creating drama. It changes the facts of it's source material to make things more dramatic (battle of Stirling Bridge, no bridge present), it falsifies facts and characters for the purposes of romance (Wiliam Wallace getting it on with the French Princess, who was actually 3 years old at the time), and inaccurately portrays characters to create a dramatic villain (Edward I wasn't the evil monster as shown, and he has other nicknames like "Lawgiver". 3 guesses why). All these things make it obvious Braveheart isn't trying to depict the events as they actually happened, but serve up a Pirates of the Carribean-esque romanticised version of something (not to suggest PotC is actually depicting real events) for the purpose of entertaining an audience.

You know, I could cut and paste about 70% of this and it'd still work for The Patriot. Huh...

 

[Abomination]

I felt the movie did nothing more than portray the king at the time as a ruthless tyrant with typical sadistic toadies serving under him through the nobility and soldiers.

While the film constantly said "the English" were the enemy the truth of the matter is it was the King that was the enemy, not the people.

Do not forget during the battle where the King commanded his troops, he ordered his men to fire into the melee - this is an evil bastard who doesn't give a shit about anyone, English or Scott. And management always has a trickle-down culture. If the king is evil then his closest lords would likely be evil and their delegates and so on.

Edit: That being said, a movie of this nature depicting a modern state as this horrible is only able to get away with it when the "bad guys" are the Brits or Ruskies. Other situations there would be far more of an outcry.

 

[beastro]

Anglophobia isn't a great way of putting it, but all the English in that film were even rapists thugs, an evil villain who liked sending thugs to rape people, and his stereotypical effeminate gay son.

Sorta very clear anti-English vibe from that.

Yes but from what I gathered some thought that they deliberately set out to portray English as the suck of the Earth. I personally think it's just an effect to add to the DRAMAS and have the token bad guys, so the audience knows who to root for.

Ummm, would you say the same if a movie followed this formula except the bad guys were stereotypical racist caricatures of blacks from the a century ago? The Yellow Menace? The Avaricious, hook nosed Jew?

I felt the movie did nothing more than portray the king at the time as a ruthless tyrant with typical sadistic toadies serving under him through the nobility and soldiers.

While the film constantly said "the English" were the enemy the truth of the matter is it was the King that was the enemy, not the people.

Do not forget during the battle where the King commanded his troops, he ordered his men to fire into the melee - this is an evil bastard who doesn't give a shit about anyone, English or Scott. And management always has a trickle-down culture. If the king is evil then his closest lords would likely be evil and their delegates and so on.

Edit: That being said, a movie of this nature depicting a modern state as this horrible is only able to get away with it when the "bad guys" are the Brits or Ruskies. Other situations there would be far more of an outcry.

btw OP you could watch Rob Roy (1995) next and make a study out if it

they managed to make a Tim Roth an effeminate sadistic rapist paedophile in that one if memory serves...

Roy Roy's somewhat more balanced since it's asshole Scots and English against the badass hero, though from a Highlands perspective the Lowlanders are no different than the English.

Yeah, he is that in the movie, but also such a perfect case of a Magnificent Bastard that wound up grinning every time he was on screen but also cheer when he got his just deserts in the end.