Are mainstream devs deliberately discouraging women from gaming?

[Zhukov]

*reads most of thread*

...

Good lord.

What is it about sex and race that invariably brings out the stupid in people? You think someone is a relatively reasonable and well adjusted human being, then sex comes up and before you know it they're producing a veritable fountain of verbal diarrhea.

*sigh*

 

[Subaltern]

Ok fair enough seeing as you appear to have such a great perspective on things then answer these questions for me I would be very interested in your opinion. You are saying that there are societal groups either not represented or misrepresented in games. The white male represented in games is mostly a macho 2D character who is only there to wreck shit. That represents no one really and a woman or other ethnicity in that role is not going to make it easier to identify with. Secondly lets take a few games say Mirrors edge, Bayonetta and Tomb Raider. Do you feel that there are not enough games like these with female leads or that these games have misrepresented women? I will admit I think these games are failures based on gameplay alone.

Here's the thing you're missing: we all identify with characters not because they're exactly like us, but because we enjoy the stories they're involved in. How many people are truly like Odysseus or Han Solo or whomever? It doesn't matter; we still fall in love with their stories and their struggles.

That said, it would be great to see some racial, gender, and sexual diversity in all these stories. It would make people who aren't straight, white, or male feel like they aren't alone or ignored by the hobbies they love.

It would also mean a whole lot less prejudice and bigotry out there.

 

[Kahunaburger]

Ok fair enough seeing as you appear to have such a great perspective on things then answer these questions for me I would be very interested in your opinion. You are saying that there are societal groups either not represented or misrepresented in games. The white male represented in games is mostly a macho 2D character who is only there to wreck shit.

Group A not being well represented and/or characterized in games does not preclude group B from also being poorly represented and/or characterized.

The point of this thread, however, has more do do with the fact that even in games where the main character is a 2D killing machine, said killing machine and literally everyone he meets is generally designed to appeal to a male (straight, white) audience and only that audience.

Even something like having killing machines of all genders, races, orientations, and creeds designed to appeal to players of all genders, races, orientations, and creeds would be a step forward from the status quo.

and a woman or other ethnicity in that role is not going to make it easier to identify with.

A) You've got a whole thread of counter-evidence,

B) The protagonist gap, while definitely an issue, is not the only thing contributing to the general "boys' club" atmosphere that gaming gives off.

 

[neversleep]

Heather from SH3 is the only female character I can think of that wasn't horribly sexist

Most of the game she was traumatized and still she was caving in monster heads in between. She's also the only female character I can think of atm that hasn't got a ....massive...balcony....installed....at chest height

 

[Vault101]

And if you've yet to play Half-Life 2, I advise it, since Alyx is still the best and most realistic female character in gaming.

Unfortunately that all changed in Episode 2 where she played the damsel in distress, and where even her own father suggested that Gordon ought to knock her up.

So much for that independent lady.

she wasnt a damsal in distress

she was a damsel in a coma

 

[OtherSideofSky]

The issue is that female characters tend to be designed to appeal to a male audience as a sexual fantasy and that male characters tend to be designed to appeal to a male audience as a power fantasy. Trust me, if male characters were objectified to the same extent as female characters, you'd know.

Maybe we just play very different games, but I see a lot of games full of male characters designed to appeal to female sexual fantasies. It's the whole reason games like Sengoku Basara even exist (the director explained it in an interview, you should be able to find an English translation online somewhere). That said, I definitely see a lot less of that in mainstream Western gaming than in games from Japan and other parts of Asia, and I don't think a lot of the games focused on those aspects get much of a marketing push in English speaking countries if they get released there at all.

Yeah, I wouldn't be surprised if Japan had more of that kind of games than the anglophonic world. Incidentally, the fact that several dudes in the West hate playing bishounen characters is arguably the perfect demonstration of what I'm talking about re: male protagonists in most western games.

I think it might also be a result of different genres being popular in different regions. A lot of the genres that do the most to target female audiences aren't nearly as popular among Western gamers. I do notice that there's a lot more overt acknowledgement of female audiences and female sexuality in the media and marketing over here. I mean, American live-action media has been sexually objectifying men in movies, TV and politics for quite a while, but it's completely left out of the discourse on the subject, the same way no one in the West ever seems to publicly discuss pornography created by or for women. Over in Japan, on the other hand, they even choose the actors TV shows aimed at young boys with appealing to women in mind, and are pretty open about it (they figured out that it did a lot to stop stay at home moms from changing the channel when their kids were watching Kamen Rider).

 

[kyle_silver]

I understand what you mean.. Hopefully in time, we will move past all of this, and Female gamers will be catered for, and treated properly by game Devs.

 

[Fappy]

*reads most of thread*

...

Good lord.

What is it about sex and race that invariably brings out the stupid in people? You think someone is a relatively reasonable and well adjusted human being, then sex comes up and before you know it they're producing a veritable fountain of verbal diarrhea.

*sigh*

This is what happens when real life issues are discussed on gaming forums. I've come to terms with the stupidity of humanity at this point >.>

 

[need4snacks]

The overwhelming amount of pandering to men is a result of market forces. I believe men still make up the majority of what we can describe as hardcore gaming; both with consumers and producers. So it makes sense that these games would be based around the desires of men. It's not misogynist, or counter-progressive. I admit, it might be wise to try and expand your player base to include women, since they make up such a large part of the population, but it shouldn't be looked down upon as immoral or wrong because they don't.

MARKET FORCES people.

Actually, if it was truly market forces then you would see far more diversity since there are billions of people who aren't straight white men. There's an ungodly amount of money to be made by expanding the market.

And sorry, but things can still be misogynistic (or racist or homophobic) even if they aren't deliberate or intentional actions or even if they are supposedly governed by "market forces".

What matters in the end is the effect on the population in question, not what the actor thinks or intends.

Actually, market forces has little to do with companies attempting to get as much money as possible in respect to what I'm trying to describe. Market Forces dictate that a product reflects its consumer base.
If video games are made and purchased by a certain group, I would expect that product to pander to that certain group.
There is nothing wrong with this scenario. It's not discriminatory or hateful, and I would only expect it. Yes, it is extremely difficult for women to get into a hobby that is so greatly dominated by men - but that should only be expected as a natural consequence of most buyers and producers being men.

And sorry, but intent has a lot more legitimacy than you give credit for. If I'm walking down the street and I'm about to cross a person of a different race, what do you think people would assume about me if I suddenly made an effort to walk on the other side of said street? Let's say I went to the other side of the street because I saw a penny over there. Now that action might be interpreted by the person of a different race as a racist action against him; does that make it racist? No, the action is not racist just because it is interpreted as such.

The overwhelming amount of pandering to men is a result of market forces. I believe men still make up the majority of what we can describe as hardcore gaming; both with consumers and producers. So it makes sense that these games would be based around the desires of men. It's not misogynist, or counter-progressive. I admit, it might be wise to try and expand your player base to include women, since they make up such a large part of the population, but it shouldn't be looked down upon as immoral or wrong because they don't.

MARKET FORCES people.

This is mightily frustrating.
The gaming industy going `Sorry, sweetie, we just dont think you matter/exist`.
Also, widening the inclusiveness would be beneficial, it could bring in more women and more money.

Plus, if I was a dude, I would find the cheap obvious pandering and sexism in games horribly offensive because of the things they would be assuming about me (and I know some gamer dudes do).

The only thing I can think of as to why game companies are happy to churn out stupid pandering and stereotypes- they are being lazy. It's that old `Fuck it- games are for teenage boys so lets not even acknowledge anyone else`.

No, the game industry (like any industry) is going "I want to make a product and then sell it."
Widening the inclusiveness would be beneficial? That really doesn't reflect how actual industries work. Supply reflects demand, not the other way around. I would only expect soap operas and make-up companies to pander towards women - and it has nothing to do with the producers of those industries sitting in an office going "You know what? FUCK *insert group here*, they don't matter and I don't much like them anyway." That would be actual discrimination. Actual hatred, dislike, or distrust for a group of people.

If a producer is making a product, he/she doesn't have any obligation to make sure that you're happy with it. I mean, what exactly are you demanding here? That video game companies ought to pander less so intensely towards the sexual fantasies or power fantasies of men and cater to me every once and awhile? If it was on the flip side, and I was the minority group in the gaming culture, I would also want that. But I wouldn't label the producers of female pandering games or the buyers as discriminatory. They're making and buying what they want to make and buy - and that's not wrong in any way.

But I'm sorry you feel that way about "cheap obvious pandering and sexism". But I'm curious as to how sexualizing your game is automatically discriminatory, or how not having an ideal role model for a female demographic is automatically misogynistic.

 

[kingthrall]

anc[is]

you dont even need to play the game to know that if you were mutated with special powers and had become sterile, of course you would be trying to get with all the women its what every guy would do in real life.

Oh hey look, all encompassing sexist generalizations in a thread about sexism. How appropriate.

Its not a generalisation if its true, unless of course you are denying that you would enjoy a life of debauchery. Are you a priest?

 

[Kunzer]

As a man with a gamer girlfriend, I want to say that women are gamers too.

They deserve representation in gaming, in character selection, etc.

 

[Terramax]

I do agree that women are often, unintentionally, being discouraged from certain types of videogame. That being said, I see this as becoming less of a problem in time.

I've raised my little sister on games since she was 4, so games are just part of her life, and I know plenty of her friends are girl-gamers too. But instead of playing games like Assassins Creed, she plays JRPGs and Zelda (much to my disliking). However, she doesn't have a problem playing manly co-op games like Army of Two either.

More women are getting into the industry as programmers, writers, artists, etc (again, my sister wants to become a game programmer), and I can see this as having a slow impact on how games are presented and sold. It's just going to take a bit of time.

Gaming began predominantly as a male hobby. Just like many sports did. It takes time for attitudes to change. All we can do is do our best to make it more inviting to everyone.

 

[Casual Shinji]

And if you've yet to play Half-Life 2, I advise it, since Alyx is still the best and most realistic female character in gaming.

Unfortunately that all changed in Episode 2 where she played the damsel in distress, and where even her own father suggested that Gordon ought to knock her up.

So much for that independent lady.

Didn't she fawn over Gordon despite not ever having known him? Is she really a strong, independent female or was she only "respectable" because her tits weren't the size of howitzer shells?

Besides, she was annoying as fuck. At least Cassidy and Veronica in New Vegas were interesting to listen to.

She was independent throughout most of Half-Life 2, she was just kind of a daddy's girl. Which was only natural seeing the world they lived in, Alyx not trusting Mossman, and her father missing a leg and all.

It was only at the end of Half-life 2 when Alyx starts to get a bit mushy toward you where I started scratching my head a somewhat. This came to a head near the end of Episode 2 where Eli basically serves his daughter up to you on a silver platter; "Here, have my daughter. No really, you earned her."