Are Racist and Sexist jokes ok if they are used purely in a joking manner?

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Blatherscythe

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I do it all the time, my friends and I do it all the time, we do it to each other. I call one friend a drunk (Irish), the other is target to my Chinese sweatshop worker gag and the one girl in our group we make sexist jokes to, and they make jokes about my German heritage and call me a Nazi. We for the most part go along with it and know no offense is meant by it. We will tell the person if their going to far and we back off soon after, no hurt feelings.

Since I do it the most and someone happens to over hear us and take offense I simply state, "I'm German, I hate everyone, even the other Germans, mainly the Eastern ones the commie bastards!", basically a WW2 gag.
 

Tim Mazzola

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Vrex360 said:
Honestly?

That's why when people tell me Duke Nukem Forever is a satire of sexism, I don't buy that. Nothing about how the game was marketted suggests that they are criticising the idea of sexism or using women as sex objects, and the character Duke himself never becomes someone we are expected to dislike or pity. It certainly isn't critizing Duke, if anything it's celebrating all the sexist imagery.
Especially with that whole 'Capture the babe' thing. The game that makes a woman into a human equivilant of the 'flag' in a CTF gametype. One who you have to clam down by slapping her on the arse.
If this was meant to represent some kind of deep and important criticism of sexism, I'm not seeing it. And if this is some sort of joke, I, and a lot of women's rights groups, are not laughing.
Duke Nukem is a satirical caricature of Rambo-esque testosterone-fueled action films. They are not "criticizing the idea of sexism" so much as they're blowing it out of proportion to laughably ridiculous levels, and the way it's marketed plays it straight because frankly the genre Duke Nukem is satirizing does this despite its inherent ridiculousness. The satire is not the elements of Duke Nukem that people find offensive. Rather, the elements of Duke Nukem that people find offensive are satirizing a genre. Is it tasteful? That's entirely subjective. I, for one, think it's clever and amusing. I don't really play Duke Nukem games, but they have a right to be made, and I appreciate the humor.

Not trying to turn this into a "Is Duke Nukem sexist?" thread, but I feel like a lot of people just aren't getting the joke with Duke.
 

crop52

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Luthir Fontaine said:
SovietPanda said:
Luthir Fontaine said:
just watch your ass and dont say/make a offenive joke in the presents of the race, gender, or whatever

But really raciest and sexist jokes were funny back in high school find something else to make fun of.....like poltics or something
i disagree, if your unwilling to make a joke about a particular group, be it race sex religion in the presence of those people, then maybe you shouldnt say it at all... i make sexist jokes to the feminst at work, racist comments to my mexican and asian co-workers. Only making n***** jokes when there are no black people around or only making sexist jokes amongst the boys seems like prejudicial behavior to me.

OT: I used to work with a guy in a wheelchair, he loved my joke "paraplegic walks into a bar"
Not all people are as lucky as you my friend, Ive seen people fired for joking with a "friend."
Bro, he just got done talking about how doing that would be prejudicial behaviour, and now you're talking about how one is going to be punished for doing the opposite,

You guys are in totally different places,
 

Labyrinth

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Elfgore said:
A few weeks back I was in Social Studies with my friend and I see this vocabulary word. The word was Equal Rights Admenment. (The one for women). I then go "Hey wanna see a good joke." And then I point at the word. Is this okay that I did this. I don't think there is anything wrong with equal rights with women. I just thought it was funny. So opinions?
Ask yourself this. Can you think of a single joke, any single joke, which would have the same implication that the privileges enjoyed by men are somehow laughable? The same can be asked of heterosexual privilege, white privilege, etc. If the answer is no, then it's offensive because it's further reinforcement of the same tired inequalities. The issue is that stuff like that rubs your privilege in the faces of others who probably don't appreciate it.

I realise that jokes like that are said as jokes, mostly people talking out of their arses, but chances are they've been said to someone who really believed them. You yourself may have said a similar joke to one of these people. You probably don't know which one. And that person probably thought you were on their side. The sexist, the homophobic and the racist most certainly do exist. Look at the assault statistics against disadvantaged groups some time. Hell, check out the homosexual and non-cis gendered suicide rates due to bullying and the like. It make come as a shock.
 

Labyrinth

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lunncal said:
Yes, it's perfectly acceptable to make a joke about anything in my opinion, as long as it is completely in jest. However, if you make a joke around someone who does not know that it is completely in jest, then they will likely react very badly.
That's all very well to say. However, let's take an example. Rape and abuse jokes. I've heard so many of these, date rape jokes especially. To most people they're just jokes. To survivors of rape and abuse they're triggers for flashbacks, turmoil and upset. And the person telling it is trying to make a joke out of that, almost always from the persona of the perpetrator. It's a supremely unhappy combination, whether or not the survivor is aware that it's in jest.
 
Sep 14, 2009
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Vrex360 said:
Honestly?
No.

For the most part anyway, some jokes just shouldn't be acceptable to make. People who make jokes that ridicule the plight of people starving in the civil war torn sections of Africa for instance are not being clever comedians, they are just being jerks.

Likewise, I have little to no respect for people who decide to casually drop jokes about rape and domestic abuse. Especially when they don't actually have to be in the context of what is being talked about (Jim Sterling, I'm looking at you).

To me, I have no problems with edgy jokes that tackle controversial subject matter, but if said jokes are going to happen they have to be done in a clever, well thought out and actually funny way. None of this 'LOL RAPE' or 'LOL HOLOCAUST' or 'LOL GENOCIDE IN AFRICA' shit. That's just being nasty, not funny, and it doesn't deserve to be defended by 'it's just a joke'.
Because ideally a joke is something that everyone can laugh at, if large numbers of your audience are deeply offended that you would take incredibly sensitive subject matters and ridicule them for shock value, then you have failed at joke telling.

As far as taking edgy subject matters and using them as the basis for clever satire, I have no problem with that either. However it would be nice if more comedians actually knew what satire was.
Satire is the art of social criticism using wit as a weapon. You are to mock one group in particular and try to raise disgust and criticism towards it.

For instance the episode of the Simpsons about Apu almost being deported because of Springfield's newfound hatred of immigrants? That was social satire, depicting the American people as idiots who are ready to agree to hate whoever they are told to hate as a scapegoat against real problems, and it was juxtaposed by the harshness of Apu almost being forced to give up his own sense of personal cultural identity just to stay in the country.
That was satire, mocking the people who oppose immigration. As well as encouraging us to actually be angry about the effect this has on people's lives.

That's why when people tell me Duke Nukem Forever is a satire of sexism, I don't buy that. Nothing about how the game was marketted suggests that they are criticising the idea of sexism or using women as sex objects, and the character Duke himself never becomes someone we are expected to dislike or pity. It certainly isn't critizing Duke, if anything it's celebrating all the sexist imagery.
Especially with that whole 'Capture the babe' thing. The game that makes a woman into a human equivilant of the 'flag' in a CTF gametype. One who you have to clam down by slapping her on the arse.
If this was meant to represent some kind of deep and important criticism of sexism, I'm not seeing it. And if this is some sort of joke, I, and a lot of women's rights groups, are not laughing.

That's the problem I have these days, too many people think the label 'satire' automatically acts as a 'get out of jail free' card. When really satire is a carefully thought out comedic style and can't be applied to everything. In the case of Duke Nukem, they aren't satirizing the idea of using women as sex symbols, they are just DOING it.
Albeit over the top but still...

To wrap this up, I'll give my views on stereotypes in comedy.

To my mind there are two kinds of stereotypes in this world, Apu from the Simpsons and the Mexican Cleaning Lady from Family Guy.
Let's have a look at both:

Apu: An indian man who works at a convienience store. He has a wife from an arranged marriage and eight children.
In essence these are all stereotypical traits, and the Simpsons have done a few episodes that make fun of India. But Apu is also an actual well rounded character. We learn a lot about him, like that he's a vegan, he was once part of the Bee Sharps, he at one point had an extra marrital affair and he's a close friend of Homer's and indeed the rest of the Simpsons family.
He has had whole episodes dedicated to him, most of which have nothing to do with him being Indian. In fact more often when jokes about Indian culture are made, it's at the expense of the Simpsons family themselves, not Apu.
Like when Homer dressed up as Ganesh to try and stop Apu's wedding and got beaten up. Or again when they tried to fix up Apu's marriage by dressing the kids up as Ganesh and ordering the Fudgemahal. Hence with all this characterization and general warm affection he's given by the rest of the cast and how most of the jokes about Indian culture aren't actually mocking HIM, all the little stereotypes don't FEEL as much like stereotypes.

Then you flip over to Family Guy and well:

Cleaning lady: A stereotypical annoying cleaning lady who can't speak english, who they bring in from time to time to pad out the length of jokes.
That's it. That's all she ever amounts to. That's her SOLE purpose on the show is to be the annoying character who they wheel out from time to time to make fun of the Latin-American stereotype.
But of course, given that she has no role in the story or characterization beyond it and is the butt of all the jokes relating to it, she feels much less like a JOKE on Latin-American stereotypes and so much more seems like she just IS a stereotype.
I don't like it, I find it racist and hell... it's not even entertaining to watch.

I guess to wrap this all up, sometimes racist jokes can be okay, but they had better be well told and given good context. If you want to use stereotypes try to give the characters involved a little bit more characterization so that it's less painfully obvious, avoid really controversial issues unless your jokes are actually in some way or another commenting on them in a well thought out way.
And for the love of god, stop using 'satire' as an excuse for everything.
i have nowhere near the time nor patience to write out everything you did, and yes i understand the concept of satire, but personally i never found the simpsons that funny as is, and if it was funny it wasn't a laugh out loud funny, it was a "har-har, haven't heard that one in a while i suppose."

and with your two examples at the end, honestly i found the cleaning lady funnier than most of the simpsons i have ever watched, and i would say i've watched a good 6-7 seasons of it (my family used to watch it all the time at dinner for a solid 5-6 years)

so i'm just getting at the fact that it's apples and oranges, something you don't like obviously is what lots of other people might or might not like, honestly i find family guy way more hilarious than simpsons, do i expect you to agree? nope, but jumping down my ass and acting on a high horse when i laugh at something immature, that was meant to be that way, doesn't make the situation any better.
 

spartan231490

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Elfgore said:
A few weeks back I was in Social Studies with my friend and I see this vocabulary word. The word was Equal Rights Admenment. (The one for women). I then go "Hey wanna see a good joke." And then I point at the word. Is this okay that I did this. I don't think there is anything wrong with equal rights with women. I just thought it was funny. So opinions?
There is nothing wrong with jokes ever, if they are meant as jokes. There is nothing so serious that it shouldn't be joked about.
 

TheLaofKazi

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Any statement can range from great to terrible depending on the context, people, and countless other factors.

Personally, I don't care what people say. If someone gets offended, so what? But at the same time, I do hold back on what I say and do to get along with people. Pretty much everybody does. And sometimes, I don't want to get along with other people, because I'm bored :D.
 

Moromillas

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Yes it's ok, as the aim is to make others laugh, not demean or lower someone or group of people. Of course, if you stuff up the joke and no one finds it funny, you just look like a total ass.
 

Araksardet

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It depends on the context and the undertones. If the obvious implications of the joke are that women/minorities are stupid/worthless/incompetent/etc., then it's probably facilitating a climate of sexism/racism. If the joke is polysemous (can be interpreted multiple ways), or can be considered "meta" (exaggerated sexism in order to make fun of sexism, for example), there's simply no problem. And who's telling the joke also has a big role to play; outsiders making jokes about an in-group isn't half as okay as insiders making fun of themselves. It's partly just courtesy, since jokes against other groups can easily descend into insults and discrimination, so we're paying each other a favor if we say "Look, you don't joke about white people and we won't joke about black people." Also, it's partly a matter of making sure racists don't slip in under the radar.

Consider "How many black guys does it take to change a light bulb? Just one, but he has to yell at his wife to get her to do it." There isn't much room for interpretation in this "joke" when said in certain contexts. A white guy telling this is probably being a racist dick, and even if he isn't, it's worth being suspicious about, because we don't want to let racists and their jokes slide (doing so supports their convictions and attitudes). A black guy telling this joke, however, gets more leeway, and might very well be criticizing what he perceives as sexism among many fellow black men.

Rape jokes, as mentioned, can trigger flashbacks in victims; it's also worth considering whether or not they trivialize rape. Normal people aren't going to be affected by such trivialization, so it doesn't matter if you're among decent folk, but dickhead frat boys who drink enough beer and hear enough funny jokes about raping passed-out party girls just might.

EDIT: Concerning Duke Nukem Forever, while it isn't satire, I think it's not celebration either. I think it's more like a hyperbole; in any case, it's certainly not possible to say the game takes itself seriously. DNF is certainly not a liberating or emancipatory game, but I don't think it's harmful because it's just so ridiculous and its tone is just so exaggerated and comic. For the most part, I think the humor comes from just how ridiculous Duke and his antics are - it's more "Holy crap, Duke's throwing feces around like a f***ing gorilla!", and less "Haha, throwing feces around is funny!" The humor comes in the shock value, not the actual behavior itself.
 

Spade Lead

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Clive Howlitzer said:
Sometimes I make sexist jokes to my GF when she knows I am not serious but I just do it to annoy her heh heh.
I sometimes call my half-Jewish girlfriend a "Kike" in a joking manner. She knows I don't mean it, but with anyone who doesn't understand our relationship around, I won't say anything inappropriate. It isn't a good joke, except that it gets a reaction out of her every time, so I still do it, and yes, she knows I don't mean it, so it is acceptable, as long as I don't cross the line.

Is it appropriate? HELL NO. But do I do it anyway, yes. It has practically become my pet name for her.
 

Vrex360

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gmaverick019 said:
i have nowhere near the time nor patience to write out everything you did, and yes i understand the concept of satire, but personally i never found the simpsons that funny as is, and if it was funny it wasn't a laugh out loud funny, it was a "har-har, haven't heard that one in a while i suppose."

and with your two examples at the end, honestly i found the cleaning lady funnier than most of the simpsons i have ever watched, and i would say i've watched a good 6-7 seasons of it (my family used to watch it all the time at dinner for a solid 5-6 years)

so i'm just getting at the fact that it's apples and oranges, something you don't like obviously is what lots of other people might or might not like, honestly i find family guy way more hilarious than simpsons, do i expect you to agree? nope, but jumping down my ass and acting on a high horse when i laugh at something immature, that was meant to be that way, doesn't make the situation any better.
I'm sorry, did I offend you? I wasn't trying to lash out against people who like Family Guy, only pointing out that to me at least, Apu from the Simpsons and the Cleaning Lady from Family Guy represent (to me at least) the best examples of the dividing line between stereotypes as small jokes and stereotypes as sole defining features.
Again, if you like Family guy, please don't take offence. I was just pointing out my view.

I guess what I'm saying is that I'm sorry if I offended you.
 
Sep 14, 2009
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Vrex360 said:
gmaverick019 said:
i have nowhere near the time nor patience to write out everything you did, and yes i understand the concept of satire, but personally i never found the simpsons that funny as is, and if it was funny it wasn't a laugh out loud funny, it was a "har-har, haven't heard that one in a while i suppose."

and with your two examples at the end, honestly i found the cleaning lady funnier than most of the simpsons i have ever watched, and i would say i've watched a good 6-7 seasons of it (my family used to watch it all the time at dinner for a solid 5-6 years)

so i'm just getting at the fact that it's apples and oranges, something you don't like obviously is what lots of other people might or might not like, honestly i find family guy way more hilarious than simpsons, do i expect you to agree? nope, but jumping down my ass and acting on a high horse when i laugh at something immature, that was meant to be that way, doesn't make the situation any better.
I'm sorry, did I offend you? I wasn't trying to lash out against people who like Family Guy, only pointing out that to me at least, Apu from the Simpsons and the Cleaning Lady from Family Guy represent (to me at least) the best examples of the dividing line between stereotypes as small jokes and stereotypes as sole defining features.
Again, if you like Family guy, please don't take offence. I was just pointing out my view.

I guess what I'm saying is that I'm sorry if I offended you.
now i'm not sure if you are trolling hard on the whole offending thing or just being sincere, but no, to actually offend me? you'll have to probably kill a family member for me to actually get offended, let alone actually care, I was just pointing out the flip side of the line you were showing, in which the examples you just happened to pick those two shows, and like i said i could care less who likes family guy and who likes simpsons or who likes whatever, i was just following up on what you said in the examples on the flip side.
 

Custard_Angel

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Racist and sexist and homophobic and tasteless jokes are all fine as long as everyone listening is comfortable with the content. Respect for the people around you is of utmost importance, not just in regards to what is acceptable or not, but for life in general.

If you're posting the same sort of material online where any number of people can see/hear/view it, that's ok too. The most effective content filter devised is an individuals own moral compass. If people don't like what they're hearing, its their own responsibility not to listen to it.

Even still, you should always filter your content to cater towards your audience. That's just logic.
 

Vrex360

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gmaverick019 said:
Oh no, I was being sincere about apologizing. You just seemed to give off the impression that you thought I was judging you harshly and I apologized if I came across that way.
 

Strain42

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I think it all depends on where you are and who you're with, and also it's important if people are ok with the joke.

I was at a party a few weeks ago and we all were just taking turns spouting racist, sexist or just plain horrible jokes. One of the jokes I gave that got a big laugh was

"How do we know Adam and Eve weren't Black?"

"Ever try to take a rib away from a black man?"

and it KILLED. Everyone was laughing, and yes, there were black people who heard it.

I'm not a big fan of the comedian but Carlos Mencia sort of brought up an interesting point on the matter.

Some people wouldn't have been comfortable telling that joke if there'd been black people listening, but does that make it better? If you can't tell the joke to anyone, you shouldn't be telling it at all.

So I think you have to pick and choose carefully. Imagine that whoever is listening is going to publish your conversation as an interview. Is the person going to add "he quipped" after your particular joke??
 
Sep 14, 2009
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Vrex360 said:
gmaverick019 said:
Oh no, I was being sincere about apologizing. You just seemed to give off the impression that you thought I was judging you harshly and I apologized if I came across that way.
oh okay, hah sometimes can't be sure on the escapist, and oh nope, just meant it as food for thought more or less than wanting you to apologize or anything (you didn't even say anything wrong, opinion obvious is your opinion)

it also goes along with the lines that movies like starship troopers and robocop and expendables are much more enjoyable to watch than something like ferris buelers day off, monty python and the holy grail, or the big lebowski


i enjoy all of them for their own tastes, but just saying everyone enjoys things a bit differently for different reasons.(kind of relating to "cheesy/ism" jokes)
 

TheGaukudix

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I remember a comedian saying that nothing happed to people who got offended, then backed it up with the line "Imagine a christian after a comedy show saying "Oh, they made a joke about god, and I was offended, and the next day, when I woke up, I had leprosy""
There are some areas of racism and sexism that should be avoided, as the only jokes that can be made are usually crass and in bad taste. Primarily though, it depends on the joke-maker themselves to make sure that, if the joke is intended to polarise, make it offensive, but if it is just meant for a laugh, then only make fun of the group that they are a part of, or how their group is affected by another group. It is always about self deprication, that is where good, honest comedy lies.