Are today's gamers, on average, dumber?
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Actually, when the OP mentioned "clever hybrids of all of the above" amongst the list of game genres we had back then, and ARMA 2 as an FPS, I chuckled a bit. ARMA 2 isn't actually an FPS, it's actually one of these "clever hybrids": it's an FPS, a simulator, a third-person shooter, a strategy game, a flight simulator, and a driving simulator (but, however, to a lesser extent).RAKtheUndead said:
DA:O - RPGHagi said:
TW - RTS
Civilization - 4X
The games I mentioned are, tactical, economical, tycoon and sim games. As you noticed, luckily we're not limited ONLY to action games. In order of descending popularity we still have RPGs, RTS and 4X games.
Mass Effect and Fallout proved RPGs aren't going anywhere soon. RTSes are pretty much a fringe genre but still tackled by mainstream developers. 4X is Civ and little else.
After reading the whole tread, I think this thread is evidence of the OP's argument. I mean, why the hell is anyone even arguing this? If there is any chance at all that the OP is right, cherry-picking data aside, why are we as gamers not trying to support his observation? We should ALWAYS be demanding more from our games, not just deciding that we have it better than the past and asking for nothing more. I tell you all, ASK FOR MORE! The worst that could happen is that you actually get it.
Just to say old games were more complex because they had bad game mechanics and UIs is not only false but damn wrong.
Lets look at a nice ol series called Wing Commander. A space shooter. nice cinematic story but basically you flew through space shooting at other things in space. 95% action.
BUT complex in its possibilities. There were nearly no keys in your "cockpit" aka keyboard that couldnt be used to manipulate the game. You could just fly around shootin' but the real fun was learning step by step which modifications and controls were best for each situation in the dogfights. Channeling energy from this system to that one, adjusting shields, enpowering weapon systems, using a mix of afterburners and glide systems to max out your manouverability.
*sigh*
it was a perfect example of : easy to learn, hard to master. And this is a quality almost lost.
Lets look at a nice ol series called Wing Commander. A space shooter. nice cinematic story but basically you flew through space shooting at other things in space. 95% action.
BUT complex in its possibilities. There were nearly no keys in your "cockpit" aka keyboard that couldnt be used to manipulate the game. You could just fly around shootin' but the real fun was learning step by step which modifications and controls were best for each situation in the dogfights. Channeling energy from this system to that one, adjusting shields, enpowering weapon systems, using a mix of afterburners and glide systems to max out your manouverability.
*sigh*
it was a perfect example of : easy to learn, hard to master. And this is a quality almost lost.
I must say, I love the fact that fighting games almost never make it into these kind of topics, probably because they haven't really changed much in years. As far as I can tell, fighting games have been made for, well... fans of fighting games. While a newcomer can get into fighting games, it's gonna take a considerable amount of dedication to become a "good" player. And just like the RTS' and RPGs of old, if that never appealed to you in the first place, it's not going to.
Hmm... I wonder if Evo is streaming yet...
Hmm... I wonder if Evo is streaming yet...
Other 4X games like Master of Magic or even Civilization will also do, though Civ is more mainstream. It's usually MOO2 or AC because those games were the best.Zantos said:
Incubation is another TB squad tactics game, but we usually talk only about JA2 and the first XCOM game, because those 2 are considered the best of the genre.
Then there's more management sims like Theme park and Railroad Tycoon, but I never was very much into that genre. myself.
This should give you an idea.
It's not just an decrease in gamer intellect, it's a decrease in technology-user intellect, everything's gotten more and more user-friendly. Anything to do with computers used to be the realm of people with above average intelligence. Now that any Tom, Dick, and Harry can get online and do whatever they're doing, of course the average has dropped. Why do you think it's more acceptable to be a "nerd" now? Because almost everyone is able to use technology. I'm sure some of the more experienced nerds here can see this, or even some of the less experienced ones that cared enough to have a look into our history. Keep in mind this may all not be a bad thing, sure, I personally dislike the influx of people screaming hateful bigotry into mics, spewing their hate across the internet like some sort of plague, all because technology has gotten user-friendly enough for not-so-friendly people to use it... That's my two cents on that
We still also have games like Tropico, Fate of the World and Cities XL.archont said:
And how is that different from the past? Such games never were the mainstream.
currently shooters and previously platformers have been the mainstream.
Tactical, Economical, Tycoon and Sim games never were mainstream. There's always only been a few of them.
There's just as many tactical games now as there were then. The only thing that's changed is the total number of games which has increased dramatically.
I'd say it's not about gamers getting dumber, it's actually about gamers growing up and having less time to play games. Actually, make that less time to learn how to play a game.
While I enjoyed a lot of complex titles on my old Amiga 600 and DOS / Windows 95 PC, I never happened to try X-Com. I recently did ( it was offered by a friend).
I loved every minute I played... but!
It simply requires a time investment that I'm not able to commit to these days. I'm no more the kid that could waste away hours retrying missions in Syndicate or mapping every corner of every map in Ishar 2.
Even with a FAQ in hand to delve into the finer mechanical nuances of X-Com, it's a hugely time-consuming process.
I am loathe to champion the merits of instant gratification, but I simply don't think most of the classics of yesterday are compatible with a modern lifestyle.
On the other hand, I am physically unable to play Fallout New Vegas for less than 4 hours straight, so what do I know?
While I enjoyed a lot of complex titles on my old Amiga 600 and DOS / Windows 95 PC, I never happened to try X-Com. I recently did ( it was offered by a friend).
I loved every minute I played... but!
It simply requires a time investment that I'm not able to commit to these days. I'm no more the kid that could waste away hours retrying missions in Syndicate or mapping every corner of every map in Ishar 2.
Even with a FAQ in hand to delve into the finer mechanical nuances of X-Com, it's a hugely time-consuming process.
I am loathe to champion the merits of instant gratification, but I simply don't think most of the classics of yesterday are compatible with a modern lifestyle.
On the other hand, I am physically unable to play Fallout New Vegas for less than 4 hours straight, so what do I know?
How come you did not show the modern games that you do have to use your brain for, all you showed were shooter games.
I do miss the 4X space RTS games that seem to be nearly completely gone, just like 4x Simulations like X, Freelancer, Freespace and Evochron, they're almost nonexistant as well, safe X:Rebirth and Evochron Mercenaries. Modding and player community are still very much alive for Homeworld, Sins of a Solar Empire, X and Freelancer, but apparently publishers do not seem to consider them a big enough market anymore. I also miss C&C style real time strategy, not Tiberium Twilight, not Tiberium Wars, but Tiberian Sun Firestorm or Yuri's Revenge level of fun.
I don't know if gamers really are dumber. There's just more of them since technology improved and games became more accessible. Of course, X-Com and Jagged Alliance are also damned hard, but usually gamers from the mid-90s were a bit on the hardcore end, since PCs were obscure, hard to understand machines then and not the clean polished ready to play monoliths that you buy like a TV. I still built my PC from parts instead of buying one and I started gaming early enough to call CnC 95 one of the first games I played, but I don't think newer games require less thinking.
Maybe they are more reflex based rather than thinking, which I'm not entirely a fan of.
Could you possibly be a connoiseur of the ultra-heavy beat?
I don't know if gamers really are dumber. There's just more of them since technology improved and games became more accessible. Of course, X-Com and Jagged Alliance are also damned hard, but usually gamers from the mid-90s were a bit on the hardcore end, since PCs were obscure, hard to understand machines then and not the clean polished ready to play monoliths that you buy like a TV. I still built my PC from parts instead of buying one and I started gaming early enough to call CnC 95 one of the first games I played, but I don't think newer games require less thinking.
Maybe they are more reflex based rather than thinking, which I'm not entirely a fan of.
KMFDM you say?archont said:
Could you possibly be a connoiseur of the ultra-heavy beat?
Civilization is the only 4X left that is somewhat high profile and the series going down the crapper.archont said:
I keep some hope alive that Civ5 will become better again with a final expansion, like Civ4 did with Beyond the Sword, but it doesn't look good sofar.
The last things we got were Civ:revolution (simplified for consoles), Civ5 and a whole bunch of cheap DLC adding nothing but maps and civilizations.
Galciv2 cannot measure with Master of Orion 2. The rest is small indie projects like Space Empires (SE4 is pretty decent btw, but again nowhere near MOO2).
OK, so not quite as bad as the other genres, but not good either.
In my opinion this 'problem' came around when streamlining got mixed up with dumbing down content.
A lot of people want to have easy success in games therefore we get games like Kirby's epic yarn and one shooter after another.
A resulting problem is that the attention span of your average gamer nowadays is that of a goldfish and they aren't able to play more complex games anymore, forget about reading a manual even if it is in small parts ingame.
A lot of people want to have easy success in games therefore we get games like Kirby's epic yarn and one shooter after another.
A resulting problem is that the attention span of your average gamer nowadays is that of a goldfish and they aren't able to play more complex games anymore, forget about reading a manual even if it is in small parts ingame.
Ready to get blocked, FUCKING CATHERINE! This is only one, now, FINAL FANTASY, THE SIMS, MINECRAFT, MAGICKA, TERRARIA, COUNTER STRIKE [this counts because terrorists is just anyone against your countries beliefs, and use violence to try and KILL your country] KILLING FLOOR, PORTAL, THE CIVILATION GAMES, HALF-LIFE, WORLD OF WARCRAFT [I can do this all day] TEAM FORTRESS, GARRIE'S MOD, WORMS, CAT AND THE COUP, AMNESIA, THE SABOTEUR, ALMOST EVERY MMO.... KINGDOM HEARTS, HITMAN, NO MORE HEROES! Most of these games cater to the gameplay mechanic, and most aren't about catering to us Americans, that was a good block by me, and I'm a american, and have played and LOVE all of the games I mentioned, along with several tycoon sims and rts's.VanQQisH said:
Now then, if you think all American Gamer's are stupid, check your own at the door.
Now then, no, no gamer is dumber because the play X genre over Y genre, having First Person does not always mean shooter [minecraft, garrys mod, both about building, with slight action] and I have played game all my life, and have recently got more involved in the indie scene along with more thought provoking games, the genres I played before this point was shooters, and sandbox games, a little puzzle series on the side, but nothing to big. And yet I have made it this far in life, and I'm good, so you guys mis-consepting this, you can go check your stupidity at the forum IP.
Their games, so yes, they ARE the topic, the man is saying that gamers now in days are dumber for playing X genre, Dwarf Fortress, however indie, is still a game, which is the point of the forumHammeroj said:As if indie titles were the topic of conversation.neonit said:no, you are just not looking in the right direction. nowadays we have games that are much more complex than 10-20 years ago.
dwarf fortress isnt that old, now is it?
Hammeroj said:As if indie titles were the topic of conversation.neonit said:no, you are just not looking in the right direction. nowadays we have games that are much more complex than 10-20 years ago.
dwarf fortress isnt that old, now is it?
that is what i said. you are not looking in the right direction.
its like with tv, you want pop you watch tv. you want art bullshit you watch... i dunno, they have channels with those things i guess.
as a medium becomes popular this is what happens. its not bad if you ask me, but it does mean you have to look harder for those "gems"