Are we really expecting cyberpunk to be better than Deus Ex?

Erttheking

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trunkage said:
erttheking said:
Well I'm at least expecting the game play to be less garbage. Seriously, I tried to get into the classic Dues Ex and the gameplay has aged HORRIBLY! Particularly if you want to take a non-lethal approach, you're just shit out of luck there.
I remember the GEP gun taking up half your inventory. And tranquilizers made enemy run screaming at you.
That?s one area where Human Revolution was a definite improvement, it gave you a non lethal weapon that was fun to use. Seriously, P.E.P.S. was the shit.
 

Adam Jensen_v1legacy

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Chewster said:
I doubt it will be better than the original
Why wouldn't it be? The original was only great back in the day. It's actually a pretty shitty game by today's standards. Games are not like movies or books. They don't all get to age well. And Deus Ex most certainly didn't age well. Even if they were to remaster the original and change only the graphics, people would hate it because the gameplay is dated as hell.
 

B-Cell_v1legacy

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Adam Jensen said:
Chewster said:
I doubt it will be better than the original
Why wouldn't it be? The original was only great back in the day. It's actually a pretty shitty game by today's standards. Games are not like movies or books. They don't all get to age well. And Deus Ex most certainly didn't age well. Even if they were to remaster the original and change only the graphics, people would hate it because the gameplay is dated as hell.
let say gameplay mechanic is dated but level design cant be dated and deus ex 1 along with system shock 2 has most intellectual level design in gaming.

cyberpunk doesnot looks like it can be as good as Human Revolution. let alone deus ex 1.

i remember first time i watch Deus ex HR trailer and i was completely blown away. while i first watch cyberpunk trailer at E3 and i was like meh. nothing special.
 

Chewster

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Adam Jensen said:
Chewster said:
I doubt it will be better than the original
Why wouldn't it be? The original was only great back in the day. It's actually a pretty shitty game by today's standards. Games are not like movies or books. They don't all get to age well. And Deus Ex most certainly didn't age well. Even if they were to remaster the original and change only the graphics, people would hate it because the gameplay is dated as hell.
Perhaps but it was sort of groundbreaking at the time and with the exception of maybe Human Revolution I've yet to see another game that captures the same spirit of paranoia and conspiracy as the original. Maybe this will but I'm not holding my breath because hype.

A reboot with the new engine would be dope as hell but I imagine a lot of work for no real monatary reward. Hell, I'd be happy with a proper Human Revolution-style sequel to Mankind Divided but that doesn't seem to be in the cards.
 
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Yes, it probably will be. Still not sure I'm going to like it though. Cyberpunk 2020 was my RPG when I was a kid, my equivalent of DnD. If 2077 doesn't conform closely enough to my vision it probably won't work for me. I haven't even watched the gameplay footage yet because I just have this feeling it'll shatter my hopes for it. didn't watch the various videos explaining how the world of 2077 was adapted from 2020 for the same reason.

The original Deus Ex...I only played a bit of it on PS2 (which didn't help) but it did the usual thing with story based RPGs and utterly failed to interest me it the story so I gave up pretty quickly.
 

PsychedelicDiamond

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Adam Jensen said:
Chewster said:
I doubt it will be better than the original
Why wouldn't it be? The original was only great back in the day. It's actually a pretty shitty game by today's standards. Games are not like movies or books. They don't all get to age well. And Deus Ex most certainly didn't age well. Even if they were to remaster the original and change only the graphics, people would hate it because the gameplay is dated as hell.
No man, I'll fight you on that. The original Deus Ex is still an excellent game and it's not nostalgia speaking here... I played it after Human Revolution. There are elements to its mechanics that seem a bit archaic now, mostly on the virtue of its stealth systems having been mostly outdated the moment the first Splinter Cell was released, but in terms of leveldesign, emergent gameplay and dynamic progression its still far ahead even games of the same genre. The assault on the hotel where Paul may or may not die, being able to kill Anna in the airport, the differtent ways to avoid boss fights, all of that stuff is still absolutely brilliant. Combine that with leveldesign that still holds up perfectly in how natural it seems and you get something that still stands as one of the best games ever made. I like the new Deus Ex games, Dishonoured and Prey as much as the next guy but Deus Ex is a milestone nothing else has lived up to yet.
 

Gethsemani_v1legacy

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PsychedelicDiamond said:
No man, I'll fight you on that. The original Deus Ex is still an excellent game and it's not nostalgia speaking here... I played it after Human Revolution. There are elements to its mechanics that seem a bit archaic now, mostly on the virtue of its stealth systems having been mostly outdated the moment the first Splinter Cell was released, but in terms of leveldesign, emergent gameplay and dynamic progression its still far ahead even games of the same genre. The assault on the hotel where Paul may or may not die, being able to kill Anna in the airport, the differtent ways to avoid boss fights, all of that stuff is still absolutely brilliant. Combine that with leveldesign that still holds up perfectly in how natural it seems and you get something that still stands as one of the best games ever made. I like the new Deus Ex games, Dishonoured and Prey as much as the next guy but Deus Ex is a milestone nothing else has lived up to yet.
I'm not going to disagree with any of what you wrote, because I think much of it is spot on and explains why Deus Ex is a classic and a genre definer to begin with. However, I do think that the things that have aged poorly (the stealth, the combat mechanics) pretty much tank the game when compared to modern games. You just can't get around that combat starts off as a massive tedium and remains so until you get up to level 3 or so in your chosen combat skill (and then there's the problem that melee is made completely redundant by the Dragon's Tooth, which will hack up anything instantly irregardless of your skill level) at which point you suddenly become a killer of epic proportions. This in a game where most levels, as well designed as they are, tend to involve several combat encounters, especially since the stealth system isn't all that sophisticated.

What Deus Ex does right it does really right, but all the things that didn't age with grace makes it a game that is all but inapproachable to modern audiences. For us who played it at release and for people who are used to late-90's game design it can still be compelling. But for new audiences, especially those that have grown up with game design from the 10's? Terrible, terrible systems that will put you off faster then JC can offer an insincere condolence.
 

B-Cell_v1legacy

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Adam Jensen said:
you're a misogynist and that you'll disparage any game in existence if there's even an option to play as a female character.
Thats why im anticipating resident evil 2 remake?

come on my friend. thats not the case. the thing is, it looks like any other open world game. a good looking watch dogs in first person with RPG elements. nothing make me "wow i need to play this game now feeling".
 

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B-Cell said:
Adam Jensen said:
you're a misogynist and that you'll disparage any game in existence if there's even an option to play as a female character.
Thats why im anticipating resident evil 2 remake?
You said you will only be playing as Leon.

Hmmmmmmmmmmm
 

Abomination

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Yes, people are expecting it to be better because CDPR has proven it can produce, when given the time, incredible games.

Cyberpunk 2077 has been in development for YEARS and the company is bankrolled by GOG.

We EXPECT it to be a great game and it is probably one of the most anticipated titles ever.

This does not mean it will be a better game, but people have high hopes for it for a multitude of reasons.
 

JohnnyDelRay

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Serious case of nostalgia glasses here. Deus Ex was a great game in its own right. But I tried to replay it even just a couple years later and it felt dated and janky as fuck. I gave up, and replayed it again in 2005, just to appreciate the story and depth the game had. It was a pioneer, yes. But it's not the best and only game to do what it did. Despite it having a brilliant story and freedom to approach in various ways (I'm talking storyline, because stealth was just a pain), the rest of it was horrible. Playing Deus Ex after a round of counter-strike felt like you were walking through thick mud, blind drunk, and trying to aim a pistol with it tied to the end of a 2 meter stick.

Now I know OP thinks Witcher 3 is broken, shit combat, boring, etc, the usual. All subjective, of course, because to me, it has the best writing of any game I've ever played. Just speaking for myself, I've never given a shit about NPCs and their stupid quests until I played Witcher 3. Yes, there are golden moments in Diablo, Oblivion, Skyrim, and Mass Effect. But Witcher 3 had me roped in more than anything. I have faith in CDPRs writing. And I can't wait to see what they do in the cyberpunk setting (which peaked awhile ago, so now presents a bit of a challenge).
 

Squilookle

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Adam Jensen said:
Chewster said:
I doubt it will be better than the original
Why wouldn't it be? The original was only great back in the day. It's actually a pretty shitty game by today's standards. Games are not like movies or books. They don't all get to age well. And Deus Ex most certainly didn't age well. Even if they were to remaster the original and change only the graphics, people would hate it because the gameplay is dated as hell.

PsychedelicDiamond said:
No man, I'll fight you on that. The original Deus Ex is still an excellent game and it's not nostalgia speaking here... I played it after Human Revolution. There are elements to its mechanics that seem a bit archaic now, mostly on the virtue of its stealth systems having been mostly outdated the moment the first Splinter Cell was released, but in terms of leveldesign, emergent gameplay and dynamic progression its still far ahead even games of the same genre. The assault on the hotel where Paul may or may not die, being able to kill Anna in the airport, the differtent ways to avoid boss fights, all of that stuff is still absolutely brilliant. Combine that with leveldesign that still holds up perfectly in how natural it seems and you get something that still stands as one of the best games ever made. I like the new Deus Ex games, Dishonoured and Prey as much as the next guy but Deus Ex is a milestone nothing else has lived up to yet.
I too missed the boat on the original Deus Ex until just a few years ago and I was completely swept away by it, and I'm gonna have to call bullshit on the whole idea that games age poorly. A classic becomes a classic for a range of factors, and it isn't rendered irrelevant by games that just came out later and looked prettier. Allied doesn't invalidate Casablanca, Ready Player One doesn't invalidate Charlie and the Chocolate Factory, Rogue Squadron doesn't invalidate X-Wing, and Sci-Fi RPGs in general don't invalidate Deus Ex.
 

Erttheking

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Squilookle said:
I too missed the boat on the original Deus Ex until just a few years ago and I was completely swept away by it, and I'm gonna have to call bullshit on the whole idea that games age poorly. A classic becomes a classic for a range of factors, and it isn't rendered irrelevant by games that just came out later and looked prettier. Allied doesn't invalidate Casablanca, Ready Player One doesn't invalidate Charlie and the Chocolate Factory, Rogue Squadron doesn't invalidate X-Wing, and Sci-Fi RPGs in general don't invalidate Deus Ex.
Except games do age poorly. I missed the boat on Dues Ex by a long shot and I just couldn't get into it. I couldn't get into the classic of Half-Life 2 either, I was bored senseless by it. Couldn't get into the classic of the Witcher either, that aged like milk in the summer sun.
 

Phoenixmgs_v1legacy

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Squilookle said:
I too missed the boat on the original Deus Ex until just a few years ago and I was completely swept away by it, and I'm gonna have to call bullshit on the whole idea that games age poorly. A classic becomes a classic for a range of factors, and it isn't rendered irrelevant by games that just came out later and looked prettier. Allied doesn't invalidate Casablanca, Ready Player One doesn't invalidate Charlie and the Chocolate Factory, Rogue Squadron doesn't invalidate X-Wing, and Sci-Fi RPGs in general don't invalidate Deus Ex.
Yeah, I think I agree (I did play it quite a bit ago on PS2). Sure, it probably has average at best shooting, but it's not a shooter and it was competent. The stealth is probably fine too, I remember the PS2 era being where the stealth genre was at its most popular and Deus Ex was, again, more than competent as I definitely played the game stealthily. It had less janky stealth than say PS2 Sniper Elite and that was a straight-up stealth game. I wonder how good the overall writing holds up because I totally dug the story but I was probably at the perfect age for it as well. Deus Ex still has some well designed systems that I recall like how you have to pick your augmentations while completely losing out on what you didn't pick and thus sorta making your own class as you played. Whereas at least Deus Ex HR (as I didn't play MD) failed at that pretty hard, everyone's Adam Jensen ended up with all the powers anyway. And the energy system was horribly designed in HR as well. OG Deus Ex didn't have those core design flaws the new games had.

I sorta agree and disagree that games don't age. I feel the first 3rd-person shooters like Syphon Filter (relying on lock-on) have aged horribly but that might just be due to that design being bad even then. Whereas a game like Metal Gear Solid holds up because it wasn't trying to be a shooter then and only then evolved into having "shooter" controls when we had figured them out. Or like random battles in JRPGs as I always hated that even as a kid playing on the SNES. Does something that is the best it could be at that given time make it good?
 

sXeth

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Phoenixmgs said:
I sorta agree and disagree that games don't age. I feel the first 3rd-person shooters like Syphon Filter (relying on lock-on) have aged horribly but that might just be due to that design being bad even then. Whereas a game like Metal Gear Solid holds up because it wasn't trying to be a shooter then and only then evolved into having "shooter" controls when we had figured them out. Or like random battles in JRPGs as I always hated that even as a kid playing on the SNES. Does something that is the best it could be at that given time make it good?
It varies, but if we erase graphics and such out, some old titles will even actively outshine modern titles. Take the graphical limits out of consideration, and Unreal Tournament and Perfect Dark will basically bury most shooters in terms of content amount and variety (while sacrificing jumping in PD's case, granted, not that jumping is a big thing in a lot of current shooters).

The thing with stealth games though, is that a ton of its reliant on AI and fidelity (of various sorts). The first is only just starting to see some real advancements nowadays, and the second is still hit and miss at the best of times. You can make a perfectly functional stealth game with Pac-man hiding from a bunch of arrows (to denote visual line), but its not going to win any stellar acclaims like it might have back in the early Wolfenstein (the original original one) days.

And RPGs, which is the other half of Deus Ex (and Cyberpunk I'm assuming) will simply benefit on a raw scale of having more and more options available, and better levels of detail (I don't mean "stubble on Geralt's chin" detail though, but actual unique environments and characters and so on.)
 

Worgen

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Whatever, just wash your hands.
I'm going to say yes, easily. I mean the story might not be as good, but the gameplay will defiantly be better. The original Deus Ex is jank as fuck and the only way you don't think so is if you have your nostalgia goggles on.
 

B-Cell_v1legacy

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Worgen said:
I'm going to say yes, easily. I mean the story might not be as good, but the gameplay will defiantly be better. The original Deus Ex is jank as fuck and the only way you don't think so is if you have your nostalgia goggles on.
I played original Deus Ex in 2011 before the anticipation of Human revolution. ended up my fav game of all time. I was too young in 2000 to play game like Deus Ex 1.
 

Smithnikov_v1legacy

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You know I'm not defending B-Cell in any way shape or form (unlike him, I actually was around to play the original early FPS's he praises so much when they were fresh), but I have to tell you, as someone who loves the actual Cyberpunk 20XX tabletop setting with all my heart and soul, I'm starting to lose enthusiasm for the project. Only three classes to play, and it doesn't seem to have the stylistic soul of the setting from what footage I've seen. It really does seem like Human Rev with Cyberpunk 20XX sauce to flavor, and while that's still worth a try, I'm not going to sing it's praises from the mountaintop.
 
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Smithnikov said:
as someone who loves the actual Cyberpunk 20XX tabletop setting with all my heart and soul, I'm starting to lose enthusiasm for the project. Only three classes to play, and it doesn't seem to have the stylistic soul of the setting from what footage I've seen.
With regard to classes, it's actually "classless" and freeform. They have "archetypes" of solo, netrunner and techie (which I expect translates approximately to combat, magic and gadgets respectively), but many of the skills and playstyles of other classes *are* in the game. The reason they did it this way is that not all of the original PnP classes translate so well into a video game. Rockerboys, corporates, cops, fixers and media just aren't that playable in a video game but more than that, they don't fit into this particular game, specifically as a player character.

NPCs are fixers (we meet Dexter DeShawn in the footage), and Stout is a Corporate agent. They are in the game, they just aren't playable and I don't think it will hurt our experience. V's story will involve (as gameplay showed) cybernetics, hacking, engineering, drones, weapons, stealth, melee combat, street cred, teammates and what not. It doesn't make much sense for V to be a cop, media or corporate in the story they're telling. It also means we can develop our characters differently and organically to suit our preference without the boundary of class restrictions.

As for style, Mike Pondsmith himself has said on film (I'm including a video below) that "it's like they took the world out of my brain and made it real" (words to that effect from another video i can't find atm, echoed below at 2m03s). In interviews, he said he's flown back and forth to Poland for meetings where they've asked him about little details on how things work or look or behave (1m30s). With all the above said, you should also note that this is 2077, *not* 2020. It's intentionally pushed forward chronologically so they can change the world a bit. It's still canon and thus in continuity with existing source materials but CDPR have a lot of leeway for creating an explicit world which looks as good by day as it will by night. The creator himself said the world is how he imagined it!

Look, it will inevitably suffer from the same issue as turning a book into a film (or reading the book after watching the film), the version in your imagination might not match the on-screen version. To my knowledge, this is the first video game adaptation of the property and it might be the only one you ever get. I don't get Human Revolution vibes at all (besides superficial visual cues), this is more Shadowrun than Deus Ex (excepting the obvious fantasy elements). Running the net, doing jobs for fixers, cyberdecks, teammates, it doesn't have DEs grand conspiracies, global politics and (I hope) doesn't focus so much on the cyberwear. In 2077, cyberwear just exists and it has a cost in humanity, but it is (hopefully) not the driving force of the entire story (neuropozyne in HR, racism in MD). Also, V is more "punk" and gutter-rat than "evolutionary wunderkind" Jensen. Lastly, I will say with 100% conviction right now 2077 will be an RPG, not an action-game-with-RPG-elements, which is what DE:HR was. HR had *some* elements of reactivity, but it wasn't an RPG where *we* could define our character.

 

Trunkage

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I personally think that Human Revolution and Mankind Divided was a step up (or at least step sideways) from Deus Ex 1. The first level of the latter was a masterpiece but they never did that again. Every other level is, hands down, beaten by the later games. The openness of this first level makes it a terrible tutorial. It is way more fun to play on a second round, or it would have been better as a second level where you have developed more options.

I've been thinkinf about the open worldness of Cyberpunk. Deus Ex is very restrictive and xlosed off compared to an open world, which helps with tone and story. I think Cyberpunk's openness could wreck the feel Im looking for