Are Women Tournaments Sexist?

[Dr. Doomsduck]

snip

Respecting you so much right now for picking up when I was going all "Nope. out of ideas, done with this shit."

*adds as friend*

 

[Dr. Doomsduck]

Appreciated.

You know, I can put up with a foaming at the mouth woman hater out of 4chan more than I can these mealy mouthed "Well, it's just gender differences, don't get mad at ME!" types who think that a phoney, world-weary, 'it's not your fault you're inferior, girls', condescending tone hides their actual message.

I spat out males from between my teeth in Quake and Duke 3D. I really don't care to hear some grinning judgement of me and my abilities based on some broad as hell sociology stats.

The crazy ones are easily ignored, everyone knows that the insane 4chan troll is not someone to listen to, but these 'normal' guys make it seem like it's okay to condemn 50% of the population based on nothing but their gender.

And no, we're not 'condemning' ourselves by wanting a girl's league, we're just giving ourselves a chance to play without feeling like we've turned up in the bloody men's room.

 

[Ultrajoe]

Is there a separate tournament for men born in poor socio-economic areas, especially those with a high percentage of poor nutrition and sub-standard education? Statistically, these men perform more poorly in physical *and* mental challenges than their more financially endowed brethren. I mean, it's just not fair to put them in the same bracket when there's a distinct, notable difference between these two groups. There's a clear difference here, almost every group study will confirm this, and if we pretend otherwise we're just doing both groups a disservice.

 

[Chemical Alia]

And generally speaking women are ill-suited for the job, the ones who "prove" themselves are nothing more than EXCEPTIONAL women who are outright fighting their genetics and forcing their bodies for something they weren't designed to do.

But they do it because, *GASP AND SWOON*, they're what society reveres and rewards.

These are women who recognize a good thing when they see it and are willing to work to get it. I only wish I had their capabilities and sheer force of will.

Yeah, for real. God forbid that we actually pursue and work hard to achieve the things that we really want in life and mean the most to us, and have a sense of personal fulfillment in life by fulfilling those goals and challenges.

 

[MetalMagpie]

I don't see anything sexist about it. There are gentlemen's clubs, ladies' nights, single-sex schools, and all sorts of other gender-specific organisations/activities in the world. Setting up a club/tournament/wine-tasting-evening for just one gender shouldn't automatically be considered sexist.

In this specific case, is it a "good thing" for DotA 2 and for pro gaming? No idea. I don't know nearly enough about it.

 

[SonOfVoorhees]

Yes, sexism is where one sex is cut out of something. Like anything man or woman only.

But thing is, its only considered sexist when its 'Men only,' then people make a big deal. I don't really care if they have woman only tournaments, its really not a big deal.

My capcha said 'ladies, first'. lol

 

[Charli]

I don't agree with it, but it will likely attract more female participants and wall them off (for a little while) from the 'broz teams' who really are quite out of line in some of those games towards female participants. And then later in the day they can begin having mixed tournaments. Which I HOPE they will strive for when more women have had an opening to make a name for themselves, because really it's mainly because of male interest, word of mouth, invitations that so many are well established in these circuits, where as women (and I SWEAR someone said this to my very highly ranked arena team) "Does your team have any other guys?" While I was there ...I was kinda floored at the implications, (I said nothing and didn't kick up even the slightest fuss, so cool your furious responses at how easily offended I was) But I mean COME ON. Really?

Personally I'm too old and I don't keep up a strong rating enough to be even considered for any of these teams or circuits anymore but I was way put off by the bro-dom in the past, so maybe this will make for an easier transition to fairly mixed tournaments. If it just walls off women from the 'men side' forever, then sod it, why bother.

 

[cerebus23]

well anything that is organized for a single gender is technically sexist. so the idea is more along the lines of what is "good" sexism and what is "bad" sexism.

old school feminism sought to remove gender roles almost entirely. now we know about genetics that gender roles do have a real biological basis period and we should not try to remove those roles.

i have seen snippets of numbers quoted in here that seem to say women do not rise to the top to the male brackets, i would like to see more on the hows and whys of that. is it because boys are more hardcore gamers? i think you can argue that. is the boys club that forces women out of it? i think you can argue that as well. do boys simply spend more time gaming than girls in general? i think you can argue that even.

but are there real biological difference that add even more barriers, if is spacial awareness, or pure reflex ability?

we have to accept some gender roles, i think anyone would recognize that professional boxing should not be throwing the world heavyweight male champion vs even the toughest most steroid addled female boxer, because there are real physical barriers there that make it a unfair battle from the get go. or putting up the miami heat vs the top wnba team.

so is it ok to have girls only video game tournaments? sure as long as men act like boys and as long a they are a fairly huge barrier as a group to get into then anything encourage women to play more is a good thing.

just leave our gentlemens clubs alone, because i remember the war on those years back.

 

[MetalMagpie]

By definition, it is.

By whose definition?

The Oxford Dictionary goes for this one:
"prejudice, stereotyping, or discrimination, typically against women, on the basis of sex"

And defines discrimination as:
"the unjust or prejudicial treatment of different categories of people, especially on the grounds of race, age, or sex"

And defines prejudicial as:
"harmful to someone or something"

Which is as far down the ladder as we can go before the dictionary becomes unhelpful.

If - for the purposes of this discussion - we decide to define "excluding someone from a group/club/activity/premise" as "harmful" in all cases, then women-only tournaments are clearly sexist. But so are single-gender schools and gender-separated public toilets. Which robs the word "sexist" of any useful meaning.

It's probably more helpful to look at that word "harmful" again and make a more thoughtful case-by-case decision as to whether it applies. Are men "harmed" by being excluded from the women-only tournament? Probably not, as there are plenty of other tournaments for them to join. Are they harmed by women-only public toilets? Not as long as comparable facilities exist for men.

I understand your point (as described in the rest of your comment) but I'm afraid I'm on a private mission to slow devaluation of the word "sexist".

 

[Assassin Xaero]

By definition, it is.

By whose definition?

The Oxford Dictionary goes for this one:
"prejudice, stereotyping, or discrimination, typically against women, on the basis of sex"

And defines discrimination as:
"the unjust or prejudicial treatment of different categories of people, especially on the grounds of race, age, or sex"

And defines prejudicial as:
"harmful to someone or something"

Which is as far down the ladder as we can go before the dictionary becomes unhelpful.

If - for the purposes of this discussion - we decide to define "excluding someone from a group/club/activity/premise" as "harmful" in all cases, then women-only tournaments are clearly sexist. But so are single-gender schools and gender-separated public toilets. Which robs the word "sexist" of any useful meaning.

It's probably more helpful to look at that word "harmful" again and make a more thoughtful case-by-case decision as to whether it applies. Are men "harmed" by being excluded from the women-only tournament? Probably not, as there are plenty of other tournaments for them to join. Are they harmed by women-only public toilets? Not as long as comparable facilities exist for men.

I understand your point (as described in the rest of your comment) but I'm afraid I'm on a private mission to slow devaluation of the word "sexist".

I understand your point, too, and I personally don't consider it sexist. If it was a "mens-only" tournament, then I could see tons of women saying it was sexist when it was no different.

Good luck with the slowing the devaluation of the word sexist, you'll probably need it, especially if you are in America.

 

[gazumped]

You say women should get over their uncomfortableness with it, but this is exactly what they're doing by making a space in pro gaming where they're not just welcome but necessary to join in. It may be only a first step to the desired goal, but it's a lot more manageable for a lot of people than just trying to 'get over it' when 'it' is two decades or so of being told that your gender isn't as good as the other gender at something.

That's exactly what they are not doing. By not competing against men they are saying they are not as good as the men while at the same time creating a comfortable barrier between them and the "men's league" where they can play without risk which both makes them less likely to leave their bubble for the mixed competition and creates a precedent for separating male and female players in a non physical competition. It bolsters the argument that men and women are not equals and that is destructive.

Yes, perhaps this will be the end result and the good intentions fall flat on their face. But still, you can see how it's not as simple as a 'imagine it was the other group doing this and if that would be bad then this is the same but in reverse'. Maybe women's tournaments are bad because they're implying women aren't good enough to compete with men. But men's tournaments would be bad because they're implying that women aren't good enough to compete with men (and without any of those good intentions of attempting to remove the gender skew). It's still the women who get the crap deal because that's how the power balance works in a male dominated field (and vice versa in a female dominated field).

 

[TwiZtah]

Joke answer:maybe they do that protect the women from getting bullied/raped/sexual harassed by the male players?

Ummm...You do know that the bullying and sexual harassment part DOES happen, right?

Kind of tasteless "joke" answer there.

I fail to understand why women don't trash talk back
You know, talking about small penis size and overcompensation
Mentioning him being mommas boy, whiny and annoying
Stuff like that- it can't be that hard to figure out ways to insult and humiliate back.
From my experience women are excellent at emotional violence, and trash talking isn't anything more than emotional violence.

I'm happy they don't. Trash talking makes you look like you're twelve.

 

[Frankster]

I love how thrashtalking and unsporting/dickish behaviour is naturally associated to my gender by some and presented as an argument as to why women shouldn't compete with guys of all things.

 

[Zyst]

Of course Women Only tournaments are sexist? Just as Men Only ones are.

That said, I see absolutely no reason not for them to exist. If you only want to play against people of the same gender as you, its your right to do so.

Please do tell me the last pro gaming tournament with a prize pool above 1k US or 500EU branded as male only, I'm not being condescending here I'm genuinely curious because I've never seen one.

 

[Zyst]

Of course Women Only tournaments are sexist? Just as Men Only ones are.

That said, I see absolutely no reason not for them to exist. If you only want to play against people of the same gender as you, its your right to do so.

Please do tell me the last pro gaming tournament with a prize pool above 1k US or 500EU branded as male only, I'm not being condescending here I'm genuinely curious because I've never seen one.

My friend, I dont know of any pro-gaming tournaments, prize or no prize. All Im saying is that while it is definitely sexist to set a tournament up and ban one sex from entering, nothing should stop someone doing so if they want to. You want a male-only tournament with a prize over $1000? Go for it, set one up.

I live in England, where we dont have the right to freedom of speech/choice, but just because I wouldnt choose to hold a sexist tournament I wouldnt object to someone else doing so.

The point is there are no male only tournaments, while should there be female only ones where it's a mind game exclusively? Do argue about reflexes and stuff please, it hasn't been covered at all.