Arkham City.... Sexist?

[BlindChance]

OK, guys? Anyone who says "But it's coming from bad people!" from now on loses the thread. The point has been made, the point has been extensively rebutted. The point is not who's saying it. The point is why the developers made this choice and what it does to the game as a whole.

For anyone who's been watching the last two Extra Credits, this is a textbook case of the kind of lazy design they've been railing against, and how it leads to unfortunate problems. In this case, sexism.

 

[SIXVI06-M]

Games totally need to be more PC, the best game in the universe is a game where everything is politically correct and really really really makes an effort never ever to look at any group, culture or society the wrong way.

Yes, I think playing the most moderate and inoffensive and grey game in the world would thrill me to bits.

 

[DracoSuave]

There's two meanings and connotations to the word *****, and they are both absolutely antithetical to each other. Context determines the tone.

Both logically come from canine metaphors.

1) An alpha female.

2) An omega dog.

In calling Catwoman a *****.... it's accurate (if prejorative.) Because, she IS an alpha female. She's agressive, assertive, and VIOLENT. She gets called a ***** because she IS a *****.

But... she is never made anyone's *****. This is because she's not submissive. I assure you, calling someone a ***** is far less sexist than threatening to MAKE HER your *****.

Thing is, it IS prejorative. Which is EXACTLY the right thing to do. And as prejoratives go...

Well, at least there wasn't a lot of pussy insults.

OK, guys? Anyone who says "But it's coming from bad people!" from now on loses the thread. The point has been made, the point has been extensively rebutted. The point is not who's saying it. The point is why the developers made this choice and what it does to the game as a whole.

And so, looking at context is irrelevent to determining message? Really?!

For anyone who's been watching the last two Extra Credits, this is a textbook case of the kind of lazy design they've been railing against, and how it leads to unfortunate problems. In this case, sexism.

Quite the contrary, Extra Credits would probably have no problem with sexists being portrayed in a game as brainless thugs you destroy and defeat.

If it were to accuse it of laziness, it would have a problem with that being a lazy portrayal of feminism.

 

[TheStatutoryApe]

And they present it as a bunch of goons calling a woman a *****.

They show a great number of aspects that present an overall troubling tone.

A tone that generally respects the male members of it's cast more than female ones.

They're criminals. All of them. You can go to a sports bar and hear most of the same sort of comments. The ones that would be heard in prison would be much worse. I have not played the game but going off of the opening comments of the first article linked saying that the game is supposed to be very dark and gritty I would say that the frequent use of the word "*****" is rather laughably less than gritty. I am thinking that they may have wished to use stronger language but didn't get the go ahead.

The tone fits well with the character as well, from what I know of the Catwoman character. She's a hardcore badass woman in a scene filled primarily misogynistic murderers and rapists. That they continually call her "*****" is evidence of their lesser opinion of her as a woman and their lashing out at the threat she poses to their macho male egos. So yeah, the way she is treated by macho misogynistic criminals who are in prison is immature and sexist. Is there some reason you think that isn't very realistic or appropriate to the setting?

 

[DracoSuave]

What bothers me is that Catwoman gets displayed as a testament to sexism....


...but Harley Quinn, who is INTENTIONALLY designed as a sexist stereotype, DOESN'T!?!

 

[Irony's Acolyte]

Who woulda thought that angry, violent minions would resort to insulting someone who is attacking them while they try to kill her in return?

Yup... clearly "sexist" -.-;

This...

Sexism IN media does't mean that said media IS sexist. Stupid people can't tell the difference, but it's possible for an author/creator's characters to be racist, sexist, murderous fucks without said creator to be one. It's called believable characters and quality writing.

...and this.

It makes sense that a bunch of criminals might be a bit sexist towards a character who's always been a bit sexualized. And all just because these characters are in the game and are seen often (wow, a Batman game with lots of criminals, who'da thunk?) doesn't mean the game itself is supporting sexism. If the game showed these actions in a positive light, then sure, the game is a bit sexist. Not if it's used to show how horrible a character is though. It's like saying WW2 games are anti-Semitic because there are Nazis.

 

[Tanis]

Wait...really?

So something like Twilight which is basically about how women are worthless unless they have a man...isn't?

Or, maybe a movie like The Help where the ONLY reason why black people 'rosa up' (get it? Rosa Parks?) is because a white women made them realize they should...isn't racist, right?

Then maybe there's films like Miss Congeniality which basically states that every women who is strong really just wants to be weak and pretty.

Hell lets not mention Call of Juarez: The Cartel which is probably one of the worst examples of racism/sexism/misinformation since, IDK, '

Yeah...Batman, not really an issue for ME.

 

[Doom-Slayer]

So, Kotaku recently posted an article how Arkham City might contain some elements of sexism. Take a look. [http://kotaku.com/5851358/batman-arkham-citys-weird-*****-fixation] What do you all think? Is the overuse of the word "*****" in this context just simply unfortunately lackluster writing? Or is it something more?

Some takes on this from others:
http://filmcrithulk.wordpress.com/2011/10/19/goddammit-video-games-the-first-few-hours-of-arkham-city-is-lots-of-fun-but-super-duper-sexist/
http://gameoverthinker.blogspot.com/2011/10/will-arkham-city-be-this-years-other-m.html

Anyone who uses the words "Super duper" to describe something thenwrites fully in caps, I cannot take seriously.

And anyway, the overall point is this, all of them, Batman, Catwoman all superheroes/villians are all overdone in their own way. Batman is super masculine, Catwoman wears leather and uses whips...how is that NOT sexualized and "sexist". I hardly think its sexist when baddies are using a "female-directed" swearword on a female rather than what..a generic one? I reeeeeally dont think it matters that much considering when you insult someone the entire point is your insulting someone...

 

[Denamic]

I'd make an argument, but I noticed Demosthenes in the comment section of the kotaku article basically made all my arguments for me better than I could.

 

[Nouw]

Funny how this only comes up when women get insulted, but not with men... now that is sexist

Bingo! The sexism I see here is that only Catwoman gets the ***** treatment!

 

[LilithSlave]

Batman is super masculine, Catwoman wears leather and uses whips...

That is a little bit lame, in my opinion. It seems to especially have gotten worse. Batman used to be more corny and campy and fun. Because it was exactly what a caped superhero should be, a bit silly. Instead, in order to make him "relevant", they made him darker and edgier and tried to make him more "macho" or something like that. At least Robin has managed to escape some of the of "coolness" makeover that Batman has gone through.

It seems to be particularly bad in the recent movies and video games. I know everyone loves "Batman Begins", helped by an attractive guy dying in it.

This is why I always liked Spiderman a bit better than Batman. He's not near as hyper masculine as Batman and many other masked heroes. There are some problems in Spiderman, too. But it's not nearly as annoying to put up with. I'd much rather have my hero a joke cracking, someone scrawny and sweet geek like Peter Parker than the brooding Bruce Wayne.

There's also something wrong in the typical DC and Marvel comics that almost every male is a huge muscleman and every woman has hips and boobs twice the size of her stomach. DC is even worse, they don't even seem to have any protagonists/"good guys" that go outside of a very specific and annoying ideal of looks. Marvel at least has things like Nightcrawler. You see a lot less of that sort of thing in DC.

Still, you are missing one thing. This all doesn't come down to a few people using the word "*****", even more than Batman in general, this game seems to be doing things wrong.

 

[Zhukov]

I dunno, I'm a guy. Maybe it all comes across differently to women.

I don't like the idea that only woman get to decide what's sexist against them. It's just used by certain people to shut down debate.

Not the point. It's just that people are much more likely to notice unfairness when they're on the receiving end.

Something that a woman might view as sexist will often be regarded by us guys as just business as usual.

 

[BlindChance]

And so, looking at context is irrelevant to determining message? Really?!

No, context is absolutely relevant. But it also doesn't let you off the hook. Again, I argue: The real question here is the insults not being delivered. Where are the cat insults? The only one I've heard is in the Riddler challenges, where he asks that the thugs make sure she doesn't claw up the furniture. It's few and far between. But you hear '*****' on every second line. That speaks volumes about the designer's understanding of Catwoman, and how the emphasis is less on cat, more on woman, and especially more on sex object.

If it were to accuse it of laziness, it would have a problem with that being a lazy portrayal of feminism.

How the hell do you get to there?

 

[Xixikal]

Bah humbug!
I'm sure I'm not the first to say it: who cares?

It's a game. If you really find it so intensely distressing, go and write a petition or organise a rally. Or better yet, do something meaningful with your life - like open a male brothel, so that you can fully express your vibrant egalitarianism.

(I don't see why you should be complaining anyway, when blatant and powerful femininity is being thrust in your face. I mean, aren't they a symbol of a woman's ability to be sexy and kick ass? I know I have no problem with Jacob Taylor rom Mass Effect strutting shirtless upon my screen)

 

[BlindChance]

That is a little bit lame, in my opinion. It seems to especially have gotten worse. Batman used to be more corny and campy and fun. Because it was exactly what a caped superhero should be, a bit silly. Instead, in order to make him "relevant", they made him darker and edgier and tried to make him more "macho" or something like that.

Wait up. Lilith, I'm on your side, but your history here is out. Batman's origins are in the detective comic genre ("Detective Comics", ala DC, made him to try and capitalize on the booming superhero genre) and it's a genre a lot darker than the superhero one as a rule. Check out some Dick Tracy; it's filled with nasty stuff. Over time, he did fall prey to the '60s trademark campiness, before Frank Miller did The Dark Knight Returns, an attempt to return Batman to his darker roots. It's from here that the wider "Dark Knight" conceptualization of Batman comes from, and it's one that Arkham City is playing in very clearly. (Catwoman notably gets a Long Halloween costume option... one that is WAY better than her campaign costume, I note... in challenge mode. The Long Halloween was a direct sequel to one of Frank Miller's works.)

Arkham City's problems descend directly from its own choices, it's not a fault of the wider interpretation of Batman. Long Halloween's Catwoman has none of these problems, and Batman: Year One's Catwoman had fewer of them. Both are in the same tradition.

 

[Irony's Acolyte]

I dunno, I'm a guy. Maybe it all comes across differently to women.

I don't like the idea that only woman get to decide what's sexist against them. It's just used by certain people to shut down debate.

Not the point. It's just that people are much more likely to notice unfairness when they're on the receiving end.

Something that a woman might view as sexist will often be regarded by us guys as just business as usual.

And to decide who's right, we debate. Judgement should not automatically fall to the woman on this.

Well considering that the use of '*****' has two different meanings depending on what gender it's directed towards, I think women should be deferred to when trying to figure out whether something dealing solely with women is offensive or not.

If it doesn't affect guys in the same way, why should we have as much say?

 

[ShadowsofHope]

...

What, you expect low life thugs that are generally uneducated and meatheads to tell Catwoman to "please get off of me and stop kicking me in the face, kind lady"? I'm sorry, but manners generally fly out the window when you are getting beat on by anyone, and the profanities are going to start flying. Calling a woman a "*****" when she kicks you in the face with high heels is no different from calling a man a "dick" or "bastard" for punching you square in the nose.

The thugs in the game don't care if you are Batman, Catwoman or even fucking Superman. They are going to cuss you out, and they are going to try and kill you. The personalities of the criminal thugs themselves are immature and sexist towards women - quite obvious if you ever walk into a prison in real life as a woman and let the prisoners see you, not the developers. Reality can and will always be sexist in scenario's against either gender, it's an unfortunate fact of life, but also one that doesn't just go away because we pretend it doesn't happen.

Equality at it's very most base should pretty much be this for the genders: "If it's not okay for a guy to do it, it's not okay for a woman to do it, either. If it's okay for a woman to do it, it's okay for a man to do it as well."

 

[Zeterai]

There's a relatively small limit to actual terms one can apply to a woman, in this context. Most of them are intrinsically sexual, being references to prostitution. Having the villains scream "Slut!" or "Whore!" would have caused no end of sexism accusations, despite Catwoman being at her core a very sexual character. Really, they fall back on ***** because there just aren't many well defined phrases to substitute it with that won't cause even more problems for them.

And note that saying something ridiculously silly like "That damned cat!" is part of causing more problems because nobody will take the thugs seriously. They needed an insult that gets the point across that a bad person is angry, but that won't get the studio slammed for sexism by implying she sells her body for money. End result: They STILL get slammed for sexism.

I think there's a term for this. White Knighting. Taking abject offense at something that really isn't all that offensive to begin with, that has nothing to do with oneself, and leveling complaints and accusations about it as loudly as you can. It absolutely matters who said the terms in game, no amount of arguing will change this fact - angry, sexually frustrated thugs are getting beaten to hell and back by a woman in skintight leather, and you expect them to remain gender neutral? Even if there were overt sexism on display by these characters (which there really isn't), that'd be a GOOD thing, as it would depict utter realism. Put another way. If Catwoman walked into an average bar and started beating the crap out of men, would it be realistic to have a tattooed biker muttering about "that damned kitty cat"? No. It would not. Sexism exists in real life, and trying to pretend it doesn't only makes it worse. Portraying it as coming from lowlife thugs who can't come up with a better insult than gender while getting their asses handed to them is unarguably empowering.

To be honest, I wish they really HAD used overly sexist terms when insulting Catwoman, as it would have reinforced how sexism is itself a crutch used by people who can't handle being beaten by a woman. Instead, they resort to overuse of the word ***** because the studio is justifiably terrified of people throwing a tantrum because they're oversensitive, and can't understand the deeper meanings behind actually addressing sexism in a game.

Which they do anyways.

This is why we can't have nice metaphors.

 

[BlindChance]

If it doesn't affect guys in the same way, why should we have as much say?

Our interpretation of the game should have just as much weight, based on a close reading of the game in question.

That the alleged infraction is serious is something we should be willing to concede, since we're insulated from its effects and ergo are not in as good a position to judge.

So in other words, a man making a "No, it's not sexist, and here's why..." is more than fair. A man saying, "Shut up, it's not that big a deal" isn't.

 

[Frozen Donkey Wheel2]

1. It's the BAD GUYS that are calling her a *****.

That claim has already been given a rebuttal to:

HULK BET THAT SOME PEOPLE MAY TRY TO DEFEND THIS HORSESHIT DISPOSITION BY SAYING IT?S OKAY BECAUSE THE ONES SAYING IT ARE THE ?BAD GUYS.? WHICH ISN?T ACTUALLY TRUE BECAUSE LOTS OF THE SECURITY GUARDS AND A GOOD GUY FROM LAST GAME ALL CHIP IN WITH THE ?*****? TALK JUST AS MUCH AS EVERYONE ELSE. (2) AND IS THERE ANYTHING ABOUT THE WAY BATMAN OR CATWOMAN RESPOND TO ANY OF THIS THAT MAKES HULK THINK OTHERWISE? IS THERE ANYTHING ABOUT THE WAY IT?S SHOWN TO MAKE HULK THINK IT?S ANYTHING MORE THAN SEXIST FUN MEANT TO ELLICIT A FEW PAINFUL LAUGHS FROM AN AUDIENCE WHO DOESN?T KNOW ANY BETTER?

Oddly enough, I already explained why that's a shit argument in my first post, but you conveniently deleted it. See:

Couple of very obvious problems with this one:

1. It's the BAD GUYS that are calling her a *****. It's the BAD GUYS beating her up. That means the game is taking a bunch of sexist assholes and saying, "See these guys? Don't be like them!" And hell, even if BATMAN called her a *****, the game still wouldn't be sexist. And here's why:

2. It's not sexist to call a single woman a *****. It's only sexist if you say ALL women are bitches. I mean, lets face it...Catwoman is not exactly Mother Teresa. But guess what? It's OK for Catwoman to be a total ***** without implying sexism. Just because SHE'S a *****, that doesn't mean that all women are bitches.

3. I'm sure these thugs have nothing but compliments for Batman, then? Wait, I forgot. Only women can be victims of sexism.

I really hate living in a culture where all of this is not EXTREMELY obvious.

I'll leave the rest of it up here too, since I'm assuming you didn't bother reading the first time.