Arkham City.... Sexist?

[Zeterai]

Calling her a 'mangy feline' is cliché kitsch? Fine. How about 'sneak', 'coward', 'thief' etc. which all point to her being a burglar?

There's a secondary issue here, which I think is also within the point you're arguing: It's the Mamet Dammit. The obligatory use of swearing and foul language to declare, 'Look, we're in a real, nasty setting!' And again, it's regarded as lazy writing and poor design. You can get to the same point without over-using this stuff. (The line is always: If you notice the swearing, it's the Mamet Dammit. If not, it's just actual cadence.)

The issue is not the word '*****'. The issue is the overabundant use of the word '*****', and this is the point those who make the 'it's bad people saying it' argument are missing.

No, we're not missing the point. That is, in fact, the point iteself - uneducated, murderous, thugs in real life really are likely to be sexist too. If they are portrayed as such in a game, all the better. They're meant to display exactly how an angry, defeated thug handles that defeat when it comes at the hands of someone a fraction of his size and weight, wearing tight leather and nominally using a whip as a weapon. These sorts of people in real life also swear copiously, as they haven't got a good enough vocabulary to do otherwise. To be really fair, they're usually racist and homophobic as well, but that's offtrack.

You want to see lazy writing and poor design? Play Space Marine. "SPACE MARINE! KILL THE SPACE MARINE!" is repeated ad nauseum for the entire game when there are plenty of in-universe alternatives. Arkham City didn't use the realistic alternatives because that would have just caused more problems than artifically limiting themselves to one term. The difference is that Relic just didn't bother to diversify the Orkz, whereas Rocksteady couldn't diversify the language because people would complain of sexism. And they're still doing it anyways. Beautiful.

 

[Corporal Yakob]

"That damnable woman broke my arm! Have at her fellow goons!"

Granted I've not played Arkham City yet (will do soon hopefully) so all I can realy offer are jokes but if people are going down the "its sexist!" route, shouldn't they be focusing on the camera angles on Catwoman, who comes across as less "ass-kicking femme fatale" and more "now to bend over unecessarily in this fight so everyone can see down my top"?

 

[BlindChance]

No. Those terms could not have been used. Because they're bloody stupid. Sorry, but I cannot fathom a hardened, murdering criminal saying "Damn you, you little sneak!" without breaking the game's decidedly dark tone. They're outright silly, and have no place being uttered by someone who has real intent to cause actual harm to you. You'll note I already explained this, and it was ignored.

And this is now at the flat 'disagreement' point. I don't see "I'm going to wring your neck, you fucking little sneak!" as particularly inappropriate, especially when the gameplay is, y'know, sneaking around and knocking people unconscious.

We're back at Mamet Dammit, though: The use of, and acceptance of, profanity as the only proof of verisimilitude. This is flatly false -- You can, and should, find other ways to express it, even in stressful situations.

And as for ignoring you... actually, I thought I was taking your point (you'll note I said I saw it; the point being the limited range here due to other more offensive terms being off limits) and disagreed with it. I'm disagreeing with you, and you're disagreeing with me (vehemently) but we're not ignoring each other.

 

[Irony's Acolyte]

As I asked Lilith, how is this in any way inappropriate to the story and setting? Cat jokes are cliche kitsch not "dark and gritty" or very likely to come from the mouths of thugs unless they go the "pussy" route which they were probably unable to for rating reasons.

Calling her a 'mangy feline' is cliché kitsch? Fine. How about 'sneak', 'coward', 'thief' etc. which all point to her being a burglar?

There's a secondary issue here, which I think is also within the point you're arguing: It's the Mamet Dammit. The obligatory use of swearing and foul language to declare, 'Look, we're in a real, nasty setting!' And again, it's regarded as lazy writing and poor design. You can get to the same point without over-using this stuff. (The line is always: If you notice the swearing, it's the Mamet Dammit. If not, it's just actual cadence.)

The issue is not the word '*****'. The issue is the overabundant use of the word '*****', and this is the point those who make the 'it's bad people saying it' argument are missing.

But it isn't over abundantly used. It's entirely realistic for a bunch of prison thugs to be constantly swearing. In fact, the lack of 'fuck' is more unrealistic than the number of times '*****' is used. I mean, 'fuck' can be used for all sorts of things in sentences. Nouns, verbs, adverbs, adjectives. It would no doubt be used frequently by a bunch of angry criminals in a conflict.

You keep saying that the fact that bad people are saying it doesn't hold water. Why not? Bad people are doing bad things[/B]? What is this world coming to where criminals are mean and disregard other people's feelings?

 

[BlindChance]

Granted I've not played Arkham City yet (will do soon hopefully) so all I can realy offer are jokes but if people are going down the "its sexist!" route, shouldn't they be focusing on the camera angles on Catwoman, who comes across as less "ass-kicking femme fatale" and more "now to bend over unecessarily in this fight so everyone can see down my top"?

I think those arguing the point certainly see those aspects as pointing to the wider issue, along with Harley Quinn's more revealing attire (seriously, what was wrong with the.. y'know, Harlequin outfit?) and the weird fixation on Poison Ivy's panties.

 

[BlindChance]

Snip.

Snip.

At this point we're going in circles. I assert they could have found ways to express the same ideas with force without resorting to sexualized insults. You in turn argue that I'm wrong, and the comments I'd have preferred wouldn't have the same force. As such, I'm prepared to call it for now, since there's no resolution to that debate.

That said, Zeterai, yes, your point is well made. The vast majority of insults that get directed in women in real life are sexualized, because our society as a whole is deeply sexist. That said, it doesn't mean that if the makers of the game should repeat this, if they are able to avoid repeating this in their game. I feel they could have. You don't.

Edit: Eh, you know what, that's not enough. A better statement: Yeah, your point. This isn't a hill I'm willing to die on, more or less, and you're right on the issue of force. That said, it's still deeply uncomfortable to play as a result (even I really noticed the seriously uncomfortable undercurrents in the courtroom scene and felt squicked out) and I'm remain unconvinced they shouldn't have tried to at least reduce the number of personal insults versus generic threats of violence, or something.

 

[Zeterai]

Snip.

Snip.

At this point we're going in circles. I assert they could have found ways to express the same ideas with force without resorting to sexualized insults. You in turn argue that I'm wrong, and the comments I'd have preferred wouldn't have the same force. As such, I'm prepared to call it for now, since there's no resolution to that debate.

That said, Zeterai, yes, your point is well made. The vast majority of insults that get directed in women in real life are sexualized, because our society as a whole is deeply sexist. That said, it doesn't mean that if the makers of the game should repeat this, if they are able to avoid repeating this in their game. I feel they could have. You don't.

It's not that I feel they couldn't avoid it, I feel that avoiding the issue entirely would have lost an important aspect of what makes it an issue in the first place. A storytelling medium is only really viable if it uses real situations or ideas in it - the cannon fodder villains have to be made human in order for their death to have any real impact on an emotional level. Recreating a person in a game by necessity includes recreating their flaws - in this instance, sexism is one of those flaws. The fact that the faceless mooks have this depth makes them more tangible than if they simply died quietly, or with a word that doesn't evoke any real emotions.

The problem is that people can easily tell when a human's been artificially limited - the goons being limited in vocabulary just makes one realize they're scripted characters, not actual people, since real human beings in their role would most definitely say anything and everything they can think of to express their hatred of the one person who's easily defeating them - they can't hurt Catwoman physically, so they need to at least attempt to hurt her verbally.

 

[TheStatutoryApe]

The issue is not the word '*****'. The issue is the overabundant use of the word '*****', and this is the point those who make the 'it's bad people saying it' argument are missing.

Bad/lazy writing isn't sexism. And I'll concede that I have not played the game and so I can not really comment on the frequency of use in the scripting but I have generally found that all the enemy dialog usually becomes over used within an hour of starting a game. What may have been only slightly annoying, lazy, and poorly written becomes a damn ice pick in your ear.

 

[LilithSlave]

Wait up. Lilith, I'm on your side, but your history here is out. Batman's origins are in the detective comic genre ("Detective Comics", ala DC, made him to try and capitalize on the booming superhero genre) and it's a genre a lot darker than the superhero one as a rule. Check out some Dick Tracy; it's filled with nasty stuff. Over time, he did fall prey to the '60s trademark campiness, before Frank Miller did The Dark Knight Returns, an attempt to return Batman to his darker roots. It's from here that the wider "Dark Knight" conceptualization of Batman comes from, and it's one that Arkham City is playing in very clearly. (Catwoman notably gets a Long Halloween costume option... one that is WAY better than her campaign costume, I note... in challenge mode. The Long Halloween was a direct sequel to one of Frank Miller's works.)

Well then, I retract my statement. I apologize.

 

[BlindChance]

It's not that I feel they couldn't avoid it, I feel that avoiding the issue entirely would have lost an important aspect of what makes it an issue in the first place. A storytelling medium is only really viable if it uses real situations or ideas in it - the cannon fodder villains have to be made human in order for their death to have any real impact on an emotional level. Recreating a person in a game by necessity includes recreating their flaws - in this instance, sexism is one of those flaws. The fact that the faceless mooks have this depth makes them more tangible than if they simply died quietly, or with a word that doesn't evoke any real emotions.

Maybe, but if nothing else, I do think there's a difference in tone. Note that when you're down to one or two mooks left, there's a lot less insulting Batman going on.

The problem is that people can easily tell when a human's been artificially limited - the goons being limited in vocabulary just makes one realize they're scripted characters, not actual people, since real human beings in their role would most definitely say anything and everything they can think of to express their hatred of the one person who's easily defeating them - they can't hurt Catwoman physically, so they need to at least attempt to hurt her verbally.

Yeah, this is a good point, and it is worth noting that when you do hear feline based insults, it's coming from the bosses like The Riddler... that is, the ones with more vocabulary, etc. As you said. And also (as my fiancée pointed out to me elsewhere) we didn't, and shouldn't, harangue David Simon over the constant use of homophobic slurs against the character of Omar Little. It fit the setting, it made sense. But it was also tempered by the fact that we get a lot of scenes where Omar's interacting with the cops, with his crew, etc. We get a break from the refrains.

I think there's maybe another element as well in this. That, by virtue of the game style Batman is, you're constantly facing down hateful characters with little time spent against less hateful ones. As such, the gendered insults(which I accept fit the strokes of the setting) are simply a much greater volume of the whole experience than is comfortable. I think there's still some room they could have used to temper this, but yeah. Overall, I cede the point and the argument as a whole.

 

[AndyFromMonday]

This is similar to the whole "Left 4 Dead is RACIST!" fiasco a while back. Just writers trying to get some attention by creating controversy. Move along, people.

 

[BlindChance]

This is similar to the whole "Left 4 Dead is RACIST!" fiasco a while back. Just writers trying to get some attention by creating controversy. Move along, people.

Oh, wait up. Look, I'm persuaded by the arguments that the sexist elements here aren't as bad as I first thought, but to say they're on a par with that thing is a going a bit far.

 

[idodo35]

while its kind of sexist thats not such a big deal there are bigger issues then mild sexism in a game featuring CATWOMAN (seriously...) also harley IS a crazy *****...

 

[AndyFromMonday]

This is similar to the whole "Left 4 Dead is RACIST!" fiasco a while back. Just writers trying to get some attention by creating controversy. Move along, people.

Oh, wait up. Look, I'm persuaded by the arguments that the sexist elements here aren't as bad as I first thought, but to say they're on a par with that thing is a going a bit far.

There are no sexist elements. Calling a woman a ***** is not sexist. The only way this game could have been sexist is if it implied that all women are bitches which it does not do.

 

[Angelus SnV]

Ok...last time i checked, Comic books, th'movies they're based on, and thus th'games, are all supposed to be "escapisim" and "fantastical idealisim"...i mean, we all know th'logicality of a guy in that costume bein' taken seriously/feared/not killed in th'first night of his ordeals...not to mention every gorram one of his rogue's gallery. I know they all have some degree of realisim to 'em (specifically th'fact that all of Batman's rogues tend to have some kind of mental disorder), but at they're friggin' core it's a comic book story people!

I am SO GORRAM TIRED of this sexisim thing goin' on with comics! Women wanna complain that "no real world woman looks like this", or "women are just there to be oggled, not to be taken seriously", and this is all because of their costumes. Do i think they're completely wrong in these arguements, of course not. I do however think that it's a lil' lopsided because it's 99% of the time women gripin' about the women in comics...nobody ever complains about the fact that the men in comics also wear form-fitting costumes, Hawkman (among others, but he's th'first one that pops in m'mind) runs around with no shirt on, and every gorram one of these guys have muscles on top of muscles...

Th'point is, IT'S A FANTASY PEOPLE!!! IT'S NOT MEANT TO BE TAKEN LIFE-OR-DEATH-SERIOUSLY!!! All of the men are beyond physical perfection, and so are the women....it's entertainment, just enjoy yourself and be entertained!!!

/Rant

 

[Nackl of Gilmed]

You know what is sexist? Sex and the City. You know what isn't? Arkham City.

Any slash fiction writers who happen to be reading this, please get started immediately on 'Sex and Arkham City'. That would probably be hilarious.

Slightly more on-topic, Catwoman was one of the original "let's let some of the female characters be self-capable and independent" things, wasn't she? It's an old trope now, but she's had it for awhile. And as others have said, sexist characters don't make for sexist texts. The guys who attempt to degrade Catwoman because of her gender get their heads caved in by the truckload, because they're brainless henchmen. The full extent of their character is 'thug who works for murderous super-criminal.' Stereotypically not the most equitable type.

 

[DracoSuave]

And so, looking at context is irrelevant to determining message? Really?!

No, context is absolutely relevant. But it also doesn't let you off the hook. Again, I argue: The real question here is the insults not being delivered. Where are the cat insults? The only one I've heard is in the Riddler challenges, where he asks that the thugs make sure she doesn't claw up the furniture. It's few and far between. But you hear '*****' on every second line. That speaks volumes about the designer's understanding of Catwoman, and how the emphasis is less on cat, more on woman, and especially more on sex object.

I have yet to get to the level where my avatar is going through waves of women in leather with whips calling them bitches after every punch. Instead.....

If it were to accuse it of laziness, it would have a problem with that being a lazy portrayal of feminism.

How the hell do you get to there?

...it appears to be strawman two-dimensional misogynist mooks being beaten the crap out of by an empowered feminine force.

The context is VERY important.

 

[userwhoquitthesite]

I actually tried to read that article in full.
That was a mistake.

Maybe the author should quit bitching about a nonexistent issue in a stupid game set around an idiotic premise involving ridiculous characters who really make no goddamn sense anyway in a universe so riddled with crippling plot-fucks that it has become its own bloated parody, and learn how to write an editorial without a failure of a gimmick that makes his already hopeless article seem less like a sad man with too much time on his hands who decides to read too much into minutiae, and more like a pretentious critic who suffered brain damage in a drunken car accident.

What a beautiful run-on that was, huh?

Anyway, if it wasn't clear above, it's not sexist, it's just immature, which are two entirely different things.