Arkham City.... Sexist?

[Sixcess]

Yes, yes it is.

It's not even a good portrayal of Catwoman. Go read the Brubaker/Cooke run on her own book from a few years back. Yes, she was sexy. Yes, she wore a leather catsuit. But... said catsuit didn't fit like an improbable second skin, and there were no high heels on her boots, and she didn't wander around with the mask off and the suit unzipped nearly to the crotch. And don't get me started on the puns. Who did they get to write this? Someone who'd only ever watched the 60s tv show?

That's what bugs me about AC, and has done since the first piece of Catwoman art was released for it (where she's tied up in a typical woman-in-peril pose naturally) The portrayal of Catwoman in AC isn't even accurate to her comic book portrayal. Or at least her comic portrayal when she was being written by grown ups. Sadly the relaunch has put her title in the hands of lesser 'talents'.

Sigh...

 

[Dastardly]

Inherent problem with this prattle. The game isn't sexist, the characters calling her ***** are. They are narcissists, sociopaths, psychopaths, and you're wondering if they are using '*****' too much? While being kicked in the face? Seriously?

I'm completely hip to the feminist scene but I am pretty sure the word '*****' would come out of me if I was Kicked In The Face by a woman. This argument is nonsensical and more than a little trite when you consider this is one woman who by all definitions, IS a *****, getting called one. Luckily, the point of this game is that the ***** gets her kicks in and the people she kicks have it coming.

Now to see my post get cherry picked...

It's not that the characters are using the word "*****" too much. It's that the writers depended entirely too much, and too broadly, on the word "*****" to convey whatever it is they're trying to convey. They did not recognize the problem of the same phrase being repeated over and over and over throughout hours of gameplay.

Are Catwoman and Quinn the same characters? No. They're supposedly very different. So, why can't the writers treat them differently? The complaints aren't about the use of the word. It's about the overuse of the word, and how it's applied to all of the female characters--with the weak justification that "this is how convicts would talk."

Recall, it isn't just Catwoman getting called a *****. It's all of the female characters. Even Batman gets a variety of different insults, and he's just one guy. Maybe "bitchiness" is part of Catwoman's character. And that's fine. But Quinn? She's more "psycho" than "*****," but they couldn't resist calling her a *****, too. Talia? Ivy? Are all women with any kind of strength or independence "bitches?"

That's the view the game is unintentionally putting forward. Accidental sexism may not be malicious, but it can be just as destructive as intentional. After all, if I accidentally hit someone with my car, is their leg any less broken?

 

[Anodos]

And they present it as a bunch of goons calling a woman a *****.

They show a great number of aspects that present an overall troubling tone.

A tone that generally respects the male members of it's cast more than female ones.

Not convinced. Is it sexist when the enemy calls your male character a "************"? Same thing.

The key here is that they're enemies, and were supposed to take cues that calling someone a ***** is bad, because they do it. This isn't even subtle, this is basic distinguishing between heroes and villains.

Also, Heather Mason in Silent Hill 3 says the following line to Claudia:

"SHUT your STINKING MOUTH, BIIITCH!"

Notice the general lack of respect involved here. Is it OK now because a girl said it? That opens up a can of worms with double standards.

I think everyones missing the point of the article. Its mostly because its overused and EVERYWHERE.
Imagine if they used shitface instead. "Hey shitface" "lets go get shitface!" "Stop shitface!" "shitface is coming!" "My favorite word is "shitface" "what time is it?" "its shitface 30" "give me back the jewel, shitface" "hes getting away, shitface!" "hey shitface" "shitface, we are going to fight to the death now!" "stop stealing things, shitface!" "shitface, stop stealing things all the time!" "shitface, i need your help with something"

And then when they meet batman there like "im going to fight you now"

The article said its not a huge deal, just....weird....dont they ever say anything else? lol

 

[Kingsnake661]

So, Kotaku recently posted an article how Arkham City might contain some elements of sexism. Take a look. [http://kotaku.com/5851358/batman-arkham-citys-weird-*****-fixation] What do you all think? Is the overuse of the word "*****" in this context just simply unfortunately lackluster writing? Or is it something more?

Some takes on this from others:
http://filmcrithulk.wordpress.com/2011/10/19/goddammit-video-games-the-first-few-hours-of-arkham-city-is-lots-of-fun-but-super-duper-sexist/
http://gameoverthinker.blogspot.com/2011/10/will-arkham-city-be-this-years-other-m.html

I think if they called her "My fair lady" it would brake my immersion. *shrug* I dismiss the language as situationly correct more or less. And for the sexism... it's a videogame, they are sexist in nature, and it's CATWOMAN... It's part of her gimick.

But then, everyone is so easily offended these days. I wonder when the skinheaded street thugs are going to complain about there portral in videogames. LOL >.<

 

[Knight Captain Kerr]

The bad guys call you a *****. So the the bad guys are bad guys. I don't see what is wrong with this.

 

[Fox242]

Oh gee, they use the word "*****". For cryin' out loud, what do you expect from a bunch of goons! Plus, she is a bit of *****. That's her personality and a bit of tactic in that the way she acts infuriates her opponents and causes them to screw up in their rage. Aye, why are we still on shit like this?

 

[DeathWyrmNexus]

Inherent problem with this prattle. The game isn't sexist, the characters calling her ***** are. They are narcissists, sociopaths, psychopaths, and you're wondering if they are using '*****' too much? While being kicked in the face? Seriously?

I'm completely hip to the feminist scene but I am pretty sure the word '*****' would come out of me if I was Kicked In The Face by a woman. This argument is nonsensical and more than a little trite when you consider this is one woman who by all definitions, IS a *****, getting called one. Luckily, the point of this game is that the ***** gets her kicks in and the people she kicks have it coming.

Now to see my post get cherry picked...

It's not that the characters are using the word "*****" too much. It's that the writers depended entirely too much, and too broadly, on the word "*****" to convey whatever it is they're trying to convey. They did not recognize the problem of the same phrase being repeated over and over and over throughout hours of gameplay.

Are Catwoman and Quinn the same characters? No. They're supposedly very different. So, why can't the writers treat them differently? The complaints aren't about the use of the word. It's about the overuse of the word, and how it's applied to all of the female characters--with the weak justification that "this is how convicts would talk."

Recall, it isn't just Catwoman getting called a *****. It's all of the female characters. Even Batman gets a variety of different insults, and he's just one guy. Maybe "bitchiness" is part of Catwoman's character. And that's fine. But Quinn? She's more "psycho" than "*****," but they couldn't resist calling her a *****, too. Talia? Ivy? Are all women with any kind of strength or independence "bitches?"

That's the view the game is unintentionally putting forward. Accidental sexism may not be malicious, but it can be just as destructive as intentional. After all, if I accidentally hit someone with my car, is their leg any less broken?

Here is your problem...

Harley Quinn is a psychotic ***** and LITERALLY Joker's submissive slave, another definition of *****. Catwoman is a lying, thieving *****. Ivy is the ***** that makes independent and strong women look bad through her actions, IE crimes, and obvious contempt for other people. Talia is her daddy's *****, doing all the wrong things for all the wrong reasons.

So no, it is a versatile word for the versatile villainesses. Want to notice something else? They are bitches because of their attitudes, crimes, and general treatment of other people. THAT is the defining point of a *****, not strength and independence.

The use of the word ***** is lacking creativity and that relates to the problem is stock phrases and lazy writing. However, stock phrases and lazy writing does not immediately equal sexism. Let's not missidentify the problem.

Also, don't lump strong and independent women with manipulative, psychotic, and/or contemptuous women, it insults them and weakens fighting actual sexism.

Catwoman views her independence as an excuse to manipulate and steal
.
Harley Quinn and Ivy use their strength to maim, murder, and terrorize. And saying Harley is independent is a joke. One of her defining flaws is her mental dependency on the Joker.

Talia uses her skill to serve her father's insanity, she is probably the only one I can say was called a ***** when something else would work better. Again, lazy writing, not sexism.

Again, they are not bitches because they are strong/independent. They are bitches because of what they do with said power. Just like calling a man a bastard because he is being a bastard.

Now if Batman called Batgirl an uppity *****, then we would have a problem.

 

[Dragonpit]

Uh huh...I can think of several different counterpoints to this argument.

1. One word can have different meanings given a different context. That was the case here. (This is for the first of the three articles, obviously.)

2. Batman spent his time turning his superhero identity into one FEARED by criminals. Catwoman, a burglar by nature, not so much.

3. Catwoman kicks ass both figuratively and literally. All that, as pointed out by Rocksteady in the past, was done in order to point out that she's roughly Batman's equal.

4. From the point of view of a writer, how else are you going to show comtempt and/or disrespect for her?

...No, really. Tell me.

 

[Dastardly]

The use of the word ***** is lacking creativity and that relates to the problem is stock phrases and lazy writing. However, stock phrases and lazy writing does not immediately equal sexism. Let's not missidentify the problem.

Lazy writing is the superficial problem. It shows a lack of creativity when someone stays in the same place. But when we look at where that place is, that's where we see the subtle sexism. You're write that lazy writing doesn't immediately equal sexism. In this case, it reveals an immature and lazy attitude toward the characterization of female characters. That attitude is where the sexism can be found.

Also, don't mistakenly believe every instance of sexism has to be a monumental thing. If I were to believe men should get harsher punishments for stealing than women, that would be sexist of me. Or in the opposite direction, same thing. It's not intense sexism, it's not malicious, but it's there.

The writers are hitting a major problem. Yes, the views of a fictional character do not necessarily reflect the views of the author... but when you, as a writer, say the same thing over and over and over, it's hard for folks not to think that maybe, on some level, you really mean it. You've got to consider your audience.

 

[SidingWithTheEnemy]

Sorry, but I can't take this whole discussion seriously.
She clubs social rejects into submission (does she kill them sometimes, I don't know the game so tell me) because they are "the bad guys". There is this whole superheroic vigilantism going on and you are seriously wondering about the language-use? The language? Hello?

Let me quote Colonel Kurtz here for a moment:

We train young men to drop fire on people. But their commanders won't allow them to write "fuck" on their airplanes because it's obscene!

Sorry, but in my humble opinion this discussion is no longer ridiculous it is disturbing and unsettling.

Come on people, please!

 

[Dastardly]

Ok! I am not going to finish reading this response for 1 and only 1 reason. You have no idea what you are talking about.

This is a circular argument. You aren't basing this on any recognizable logic, nor are you behaving in a way that fosters discussion.

It is not my opinion, while I do agree that she is sexual, I do not think that I have the creative right to redefine any character made by another person.

...

Seriously please look something up before you call someones opinion wrong. (especially when as an opinion it can't technically be wrong, just different from your own.

Please be clear. Is this your opinion, or is it not? At one point, you say it isn't. You cite the interpretation of one of the men to write for Catwoman, and declare it cold, hard fact regardless of evidence to the contrary. Then, you say it's an opinion, and so it can't be called wrong.

But then, of course, you also call my opinion wrong. You'll understand, please, if the inconsistency makes it hard for me to understand what you're actually saying.

His name is Bob Kane, he created and wrote batman along with most all of his villains.

And now he doesn't. Characters evolve over time, particularly in the hands of new writers. Catwoman became something else, something better. She became a character. After all, can we not recognize that sexism was more than a bit of a social problem during the era in which Bob created Batman? Writing for female characters has evolved since that time. The Arkham City iteration of Catwoman represents a step backward, then, and not just a failure to step forward.

Sorry to pop your argument bubble but you put no effort into it when there is a whole lot of backing to look up. Thank you for the insults and please feel free to not reproduce you raising children would just equal that many more ignorant opinionated people who feel that they know something about a character beyond its creator. Also GOOGLE is awesome, it can teach you so much. (its www.google.com you then type whatever you aren't sure about into the blank text bar labeled search. Afterwords you push the button labeled search. Now you can learn so much before you speak. Im sure so many will appreciate it. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Catwoman

Thats the link to the wikipedia about how she was created. Give it a read YOu might learn something.

So that you can be aware, this in particular is why your post has been reported. I don't want to mislead you by thinking it's because we disagree.

 

[DeathWyrmNexus]

The use of the word ***** is lacking creativity and that relates to the problem is stock phrases and lazy writing. However, stock phrases and lazy writing does not immediately equal sexism. Let's not missidentify the problem.

Lazy writing is the superficial problem. It shows a lack of creativity when someone stays in the same place. But when we look at where that place is, that's where we see the subtle sexism. You're write that lazy writing doesn't immediately equal sexism. In this case, it reveals an immature and lazy attitude toward the characterization of female characters. That attitude is where the sexism can be found.

Also, don't mistakenly believe every instance of sexism has to be a monumental thing. If I were to believe men should get harsher punishments for stealing than women, that would be sexist of me. Or in the opposite direction, same thing. It's not intense sexism, it's not malicious, but it's there.

The writers are hitting a major problem. Yes, the views of a fictional character do not necessarily reflect the views of the author... but when you, as a writer, say the same thing over and over and over, it's hard for folks not to think that maybe, on some level, you really mean it. You've got to consider your audience.

Lazy stock writing doesn't equal sexism... Let that sink in and repeat it a few times.

I pointed out the flaws in your strong/independent women are automatically bitches argument. Now you are just strawmanning into the writer laziness becomes sexism because... reasons. And that is the problem.

If we had a stock phrase of Asshole in another video game, would we automatically consider the writer to have an anal fetish? Seriously, it is a stock insult that applies to the person kicking the face of the person saying the insult. Nothing more or less. *sigh*

 

[ckam]

I disagree with MovieBob's comparison to Other M mostly because the developers for M put the sexism in a positive light, while Arkham puts in a negative light.

Yes, it's sexist, but that might just be a lack of imagination from the writers or they just wanted to make the cannon fodder dimwits.

 

[DRes82]

If the writer of that blog is completely serious, then he should probably just stop playing video games. Just the idea of the article is ridiculous. Batman franchise is sexist in its portrayal of Catwoman? Really?

Anyways, I have a feeling that the guy just wrote it to stir up some nerdrage and get some hits for his blog.

 

[Dastardly]

Lazy stock writing doesn't equal sexism... Let that sink in and repeat it a few times.

I pointed out the flaws in your strong/independent women are automatically bitches argument. Now you are just strawmanning into the writer laziness becomes sexism because... reasons. And that is the problem.

If we had a stock phrase of Asshole in another video game, would we automatically consider the writer to have an anal fetish? Seriously, it is a stock insult that applies to the person kicking the face of the person saying the insult. Nothing more or less. *sigh*

And lazy writing doesn't excuse sexism, either. This is an example that is both lazy writing and subtle sexism -- because the lazy writing is exclusively applied to the female characters. If it were only lazy writing, we'd see the same laziness as applied to Batman. We don't.

You've provided your view on why Catwoman, Ivy, Quinn, etc. are "bitches." You've also provided your view on why they are not "strong/independent women." We do seem to gloss over the fact that Catwoman is, in this game, a "good guy" character (albeit with "bad guy" methods). But that's immaterial. To the bad guys, Talia is the "*****" because she stands against them.

The problem isn't whether or not a given character is "a *****." The problem is that this is the only thing we seem to call any of them in this game. No variety, no allowance for differences between them. Batman gets called many things, but all of the women are forced to share one narrow and oft-repeated label: "*****."

It is an example of lazy writing that demonstrates a mildly sexist attitude behind it.

(If it were an overuse of "asshole," we would see it applied to Batman and Robin, too. That's just lazy writing -- but equally applied to both sexes. In this case, the laziness is directly targeted at the female characters. And that's what makes it a little more than just laziness.)

 

[HentMas]

OF COURSE ITS RACIST!! SHE IS CATWOMAN! THEY SHOULD CALL HER PUSSY NOT *****

waith what?? oh... sexist... yah, its sexist too

 

[Dastardly]

So, for this game to not be sexist, it would need a greater variety in insults for females?

To quote every person who has seen an Amnesia-monster: What the hell?

Oddly enough, yes. Because it would demonstrate more understanding that women can be just as different as men. Each woman in the game has a very different personality. If Batman can have more than one insult just for him, why shouldn't each of these women get their own (if not several)?

And those insults do not have to be exclusively feminine. It's not "either we call her a ***** or a ****." You could call a woman a "nutjob." You could call her a "psycho." You could call her a "jerk." Whatever. Not every insult has to be female-specific.

A little bit more variety would keep the game from stepping on the word "*****" far too often, and that would help them avoid this very accidental, I'm sure, instance of sexist writing.

 

[DeathWyrmNexus]

Lazy stock writing doesn't equal sexism... Let that sink in and repeat it a few times.

I pointed out the flaws in your strong/independent women are automatically bitches argument. Now you are just strawmanning into the writer laziness becomes sexism because... reasons. And that is the problem.

If we had a stock phrase of Asshole in another video game, would we automatically consider the writer to have an anal fetish? Seriously, it is a stock insult that applies to the person kicking the face of the person saying the insult. Nothing more or less. *sigh*

And lazy writing doesn't excuse sexism, either. This is an example that is both lazy writing and subtle sexism -- because the lazy writing is exclusively applied to the female characters. If it were only lazy writing, we'd see the same laziness as applied to Batman. We don't.

You've provided your view on why Catwoman, Ivy, Quinn, etc. are "bitches." You've also provided your view on why they are not "strong/independent women." We do seem to gloss over the fact that Catwoman is, in this game, a "good guy" character (albeit with "bad guy" methods). But that's immaterial. To the bad guys, Talia is the "*****" because she stands against them.

The problem isn't whether or not a given character is "a *****." The problem is that this is the only thing we seem to call any of them in this game. No variety, no allowance for differences between them. Batman gets called many things, but all of the women are forced to share one narrow and oft-repeated label: "*****."

It is an example of lazy writing that demonstrates a mildly sexist attitude behind it.

(If it were an overuse of "asshole," we would see it applied to Batman and Robin, too. That's just lazy writing -- but equally applied to both sexes. In this case, the laziness is directly targeted at the female characters. And that's what makes it a little more than just laziness.)

My view? Are you kidding? Care to dispute my claim about these women? Care to show me how their actions are noble or nonbitchy? Seriously? Try it. Also, I never said they weren't strong people, I simply said that they are bitches because of WHAT THEY DO WITH THEIR STRENGTH! That is the entire problem...

No, lazy writing demonstrates... lazy writing. Or simply a lax desire to voice more reactions for characters who only exist to get beaten down.

Also, Catwoman isn't the protagonist of the game and has considerably less play time, IE she isn't the focus of the game and thus fewer characters will talk to her or about her. You are looking to be insulted instead of the game actually panning out that way. At this point, you're just pulling this into Nuh Uh, Uh Huh territory. Sooo, I think I am going to be done talking to a wall now.

 

[minuialear]

My two cents, based on reading most of the comments so far:

I think saying that the writers meant to write the thugs as sexist is giving them too much credit. And even if it was a conscious choice, the fact that (as one of the cited articles points out), there seems to be no context to their universal sexism (because practically EVERY SINGLE ONE who throws an insult incoporates "*****" in some fashion) other than "they're criminals so DUH they're sexist" (which makes no sense, because not ALL criminals are bigots), coupled with the severity of the slur thrown at the female characters, compared to what is flung at Batman (he doesn't universally get called a "bastard" or an "asshole" or some other typically male-only insult; he gets called these and other less gender-centric names), makes for a disturbing picture.

On top of that, the use of "*****" wasn't the only problem pointed out; another was the sexualization of the female characters.

Catwoman dressing up in a tight-fitting catsuit and flirting with people used to be the thing she did to a) do her job, and b) get what she wanted/needed from others when necessary. She'd flirt with Batman or some other dude to get access to a place or to flee the scene; regardless of the intent, she was always in control of her sexuality and was using it to further her own agenda, which made her a strong female character despite the fact that sometimes she acted like a slut. Through this, her sexual behavior had a purpose, and made sense.

But that Catwoman isn't exactly the one you see in Arkham City (or in her more recent comics, for that matter). Catwoman in the game is sexualized for the sake of eye-candy more so than for any practical purpose. Those camera angles showing off her curves aren't exactly helping her escape from the police; when the only people in her way are a bunch of thugs she plans to just mow down (and who aren't in any way distracted by the fact that her boobs are hanging out when they're coming at her), one can't argue that the choice to have her costume partially unzipped serves any purpose. Not only that, but she also gets tied up in provocative ways obviously just meant to appeal to players, among other things. (Chains circling her boobs? Seriously?) The power of her sexuality has been taken from her and is flaunted by the producers for the purpose of pandering to the players, and therein lies the problem.

And she is not the only one who has been affected by this fanservice attitude. Harley Quinn was never as sexualized during her conception as she is in either Arkham Asylum or Arkham City (in fact she was a parody of fangirls and/or a portrayal of an doe-eyed victim of domestic violence in many if not most of her appearances). Besides walking around in a skin-tight suit, nothing she did was ever on-par with what Catwoman does, and yet in these games she's dressed more like a slut, and starts acting a little more like one too?

All of this combined makes for an even more depressing picture. No one (that I've seen so far) has stated that the producers/writers/etc themselves are raging sexist bigots, and I don't believe that they are either. HOWEVER, what they've produced, on the whole, does ring with a sexist undertone; not in the sense that the game screams "women suck" or anything like that, but in the sense that the game goes the "we're going to treat women differently than men in an unnecessary manner" and "we're going to change the female characters to pander to horny teenagers" route more so than is necessary.

 

[ACman]

Wouldn't it be better to change it to this?

The developers have taken this blog in cosideration and will now change the dialogues into these:

That'll teach her to screw with Two-Face."

"She deserves it. You saw what she did to him in the court. It was only a matter of time before he got a little payback."

""I'll make you meow!"

"He sent Paulie B over to blow her secret hideout sky-high."

"She'll come straight back here? And when she does, I want you guys to blow that her apart!

"He had her just where he wanted her and she broke free."

"Ha, I only took half. The rest I gave away. I win!"

"Help us decide if we should kill the *****(Can't change them all!) who tried to steal from us, or let her go to do it again."

"Two guns, Catwoman!"

Hmm, better or worse?

The use of ***** where if they were referring to Batman they would have said he, him, or Batman is jarring and gives the game a sexist tone overall.

Not an intentional one but it's there none the less.

And the Bativerse used to be such a happy place.