Arkham City.... Sexist?

[SyphonX]

It's Kotaku. Part of the Gawker network. If you don't know that the Gawker network is vapid and sensational by now, then here is your cue.

They just want to create chaos where there is none. Getting site-traffic along the way.

Political Correctness can die in a fire, so shall the people exploiting it for their own personal gain.

 

[Ampersand]

It would be kind of weird if they didn't call her that wouldn't it.....what do you say when you get punched in the junk repeatedly?
"son of a bii....madame!!!"

 

[Dr. Crawver]

while they raise decent points, the trouble is the people portrayed in these games, the shear lowlifes, their real world equivilants mostly see women in the same light. It seems gratuitous because it is in the real world. Hell, I mostly hang out with intelligent people and some of the filth they'll spew out about women is frightening. The people here act as if it doesn't go on. It's wrong, but I think we should focus more on the real world issues, rather than those mirrored by a game

 

[Dr Snakeman]

Just being picky, but it's fine for a roomful of violent thugs to beat up a lone woman with baseball bats and the like, but calling her a ***** while you shatter her ribcage into a calcium themed jenga set is too far?

I find this sentence hilariously true. For some reason, there's this idea that you can have all the violence you want, but mean words are a no-no.

This isn't sexist. The people who wrote those articles are bored/stupid/both. Nothing more needs to be said, except: I really need to play Arkham City. It looks even cooler than I thought it would be.

 

[SyphonX]

So far, I'm yet to see a single well thought out argument that this game DOESN'T pull some crap, and all I'm seeing in defence of it is the argument equivalent of people shrugging their shoulders and just turning around and walking away.

Um, and I've yet to see a valid point for why anyone should be concerned at all. There probably doesn't need to be a "valid argument" because the problem simply doesn't exist, or is entirely too asinine to begin with.

Sexism, really? Really?

 

[Transhuman Plus]

I know this is the internet and all, but could you at least TRY and read some of the articles of the opposing viewpoint?

So far, I'm yet to see a single well thought out argument that this game DOESN'T pull some crap, and all I'm seeing in defence of it is the argument equivalent of people shrugging their shoulders and just turning around and walking away.

One of the major arguments of Film Critic Hulk is:

"? SO WHAT THE FUCK IS THE POINT OF THIS SHIT IN ARKHAM CITY?

OH WAIT, THERE IS NONE. THERE IS NO FUCKING CONTEXT FOR THE THINGS. THEY ARE JUST PRESENTED AT FACE VALUE WITH ABSOLUTELY NO OTHER REDEEMING VALUE BEYOND TITILLATION AND SEEPING OUT OF THE WRITERS COLLECTIVE ID AS SOME SORT OF AXE TO GRIND WITH WOMEN."

He/ she couldn't be more wrong. The constant use of the word adds to the gritty, darkened atmosphere of the game. The "context" is that it fits.

If Kirk Hamilton from Kotaku hadn't decided to jump on the indignation wagon (because nothing gets site traffic like controversy) this would have ended with a rambling nonsensical rant on Film Critic Hulk, and we everyone reading this wouldn't have wasted their time on an imagined inequity.

 

[MidnightCat]

I enjoyed Film Critic Hulk's article, but I'm going to reserve judgement until after I've played Arkham City. I have to say though, that considering the other names they could be calling Catwoman, "*****" is fairly tame. Replace "*****" with, say, "whore" and I'd be worried, but so far having the NPCs call Catwoman a ***** seems appropriate considering the context.

 

[xdom125x]

I think the inmates call Catwoman a ***** so much and don't do the same towards Batman because they think they could actually beat Catwoman. Why? Most inmates have a size advantage over her, they are stupid, too goddamn proud to think they could be beaten by her, and are sexist (although this can be considered an extrapolation of stupid, if you like). While on the other hand, most of them see Batman as a freaking force of nature, so they don't call him a *****.

Why don't they use more pun-based insults? Because when a run of the mill thug is in a fight, he won't be thinking "gee what would be a great quip to insult this woman". He'd be thinking more "ow, that b**** just kicked me in my face". Also, using puns could actual hurt that thugs reputation.

And couldn't those article have focused more on the (implicit or explicit) threats of rape towards Catwoman instead? Those seemed kind of worse than the (debateable) overuse of the b- word.

 

[jthwilliams]

LayZ writting

 

[ACman]

...Calling a woman a ***** while she's beating you up is sexist now?

Are you fucking kidding me?

Welp, see you guys. I'm going to go shoot myself because this world is obviously fucking insane now.

The point is that Rocksteady have produced a world where the only serious real world insult used is a pejorative term used to insult a woman.

If the profanity was a bit more free and heavy then it wouldn't seem so out of place.

 

[Sentox6]

But I do think it's dangerous to pretend that incidents like these aren't a problem for the future of the industry.

That strikes me as a little dramatic. If something like this is a genuine problem for the gaming industry, then the music industry should be six feet under by now [http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=O2ieT7PJFSU].

 

[AndyFromMonday]

It's offensive to many female players because the writers didn't bother to write better dialogue about the female characters.

The dialogue in general is quite shit and what you're saying is bullshit. "*****" is not used in the context of describing the female characters in the game. It's an insult and is in no way actual dialogue. If you want actual dialogue, listen to the other female characters in the game. Hell, one is a fucking doctor. Why the hell would the writers portray a female character as a doctor if they were so inherently misogynistic?

It's unrealistic for them all to use the exact same insult to the exclusion of all others. As plenty of others have pointed out, there's a number of alternatives, both gendered and non-gendered. "Freak", "Scum", "Piece of Shit" all would have worked. Or if you really want the thugs to come off as misogynist, there are alternatives like "hussy" that you can use and still keep your teen rating. Imagine this was an "E"-rated game and instead of "*****" they all used the word "meanie". That's what's so unrealistic about it.

So basically, what you're saying is that you have a problem with the writing and not the insults themselves. Good. I'm glad you pulled your head out of your ass.

It's lazy writing that applies only to the female characters. When it came to the female characters they got lazy.

Batman is also insulted quite often, most of the times with the word "freak" and even ***** sometimes. This isn't misogyny, it's just lazy writing.

Nope, profanity is perfectly fuckin' fine with me. I know exactly what the thugs are saying, thank you and i'm perfectly OK with that, too. What offends me are the writers' insulting my intelligence and doing it in a (probably unintentionally) sexist way.

How do they insult your intelligence again?

Seriously, find me one reputable source that claims the word "*****" is now gender neutral and no one thinks of it as a misogynist slur anymore.

Xbox Live.

Why is Batman only referred to as a ***** once or twice in passing, while Catwoman and the other female characters are referred to as bitches almost constantly?

Laziness.

 

[mstickle]

What got me was when fighting as Catwoman all the insults were pretty rapey but insults to Batman were about killing him. Where's the threats of killing Catwoman and threats of rape to Batman. It is set in a prison after all...

I'm not usually bothered by this stuff but constant threats of sexual assault and pretty much only that actually put me off wanting to continue to play Catwoman's combat challenges.I understand the context and that low-life types are obviosly going to say stuff like that, but for some reason in Arkham City it seems really over the top.

 

[Gethsemani_v1legacy]

Also, the whole realism element should NEVER be used as an argument in regards to Batman. Because he's a vigilante, who dresses like a BAT, to beat up genius criminals who dress like clowns, who for some reason have sway over vast numbers of hardened criminals/borderline superhumans.

This. But also: Batman is a cartoon superhero. He is, specifically, a pre-teen friendly superhero. He lives in a city where notorious criminals range from a midget criminal mastermind to psychotic prankster and onto a man who has to live in sub-zero temperatures and a woman who has control of plants. 'Realism' doesn't matter. Consistency might matter (as in the internal consistency of the imaginary city of Gotham City) but there are far better ways to show that these people are evil thugs in a highmax prison than having them spout the same sexist derogative over and over.

See, I think Hulk presented his case pretty well. This isn't about consistency or realism or even about what children can hear. It is about the fact that Arkham City contains all this dialogue that comes of a sexist, but doesn't seem to care, realize or even think about it. It could have been a meaningful thematic point for the Catwoman levels, to have her interrupt, object and proceed to kick ass to (in the heavy handed, cartoon way) show that sexism is stupid and superheroes kick sexist ass (or Batman could have done it in a later level). But we get nothing like that. In the words of TVtropes, this is at best a broken Aesop.

This is just another stop in the line of developers that, openly or not, admit that they don't care much for things like message or politics, because they develop games to be "fun". If "fun" happens to be misogynist... Well hey, girls not better be part of it. (The latter is admitedly an exaggeration, but that's the feeling I get from the gaming community occasionally)

 

[Kramcake2516]

Hardened criminals who haven?t even seen a woman for years let alone been hit by one sexist? Surely not lol

 

[Transhuman Plus]

Is it an imagined inequity? If Batman were referred to as Prick, every single time he is mentioned in conversation, instead of a respectful 'him' or 'The Bat', that would be equal.

That wouldn't flow at all.

There's dozens of harsh words the prisoners could use to insult batman, but only two that really stick out for Catwoman (***** and "the c word"). When she's fighting the prisoners, it wouldn't be realistic at all to have them launch into a soliloquy about how much they hate Catwoman. Besides the 'oofs' and 'ahs' the most common phrases that wouldn't feel out of place or forced if you heard them over and over (which is a concern for fight dialogue) are probably: "Get the *****", "kill that you *****" and "You scratched my face, you *****!". They wouldn't say "Get her" like it's a bar brawl from the 80's.

These are hardened and psychotic criminals, and the '***** heavy' dialogue is what the setting (prison) warrants. They're not going to speak like they're at a tea party in Bristol and talk about the weather. The writers are going to use whatever insulting language they can include while keeping the game T-rated. Thank god ***** was still on the table.

I can agree that the 'context' is that this 'environment' is hostile towards women, but is that really much better? But the design of the female characters themselves suggest something that creeps out of the fiction, because not only does the 'environment' view women(to paraphrase) as something to beat up/jerk to, we're expected to believe the female characters (with the exception of Talia) actually dress themselves as borderline sex slaves, bondage suggestions and all. And I doubt it's to make them faster in a fight, as some have argued...

Harley Quinn's costume suits her personality perfectly, desperately trying to get the joker's approval while ditsy enough to forgive his abuse. Catwoman on the other hand is a prostitute in most continuities, and her promiscuous appearance and demeanour could be interpreted as a reaction to sexual abuse.

 

[cobra_ky]

But I do think it's dangerous to pretend that incidents like these aren't a problem for the future of the industry.

That strikes me as a little dramatic. If something like this is a genuine problem for the gaming industry, then the music industry should be six feet under by now [http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=O2ieT7PJFSU].

It would be if the music industry didn't already have a broad spectrum of female voices in it, from rap to country. If "Get Low" was the only depiction of women in the music industry, then yes, they would have a problem.

It's also not necessarily a lethal problem for the game industry; it's managed to get by just fine, so far. But it's something that will limit the industry's growth in future if they are unable to reach out to female consumers.

It's offensive to many female players because the writers didn't bother to write better dialogue about the female characters.

The dialogue in general is quite shit and what you're saying is bullshit. "*****" is not used in the context of describing the female characters in the game. It's an insult and is in no way actual dialogue. If you want actual dialogue, listen to the other female characters in the game. Hell, one is a fucking doctor. Why the hell would the writers portray a female character as a doctor if they were so inherently misogynistic?

Dialogue in this case referring to all the voice acting in the game. I get the sense that we're not really speaking the same language here.

I'm not going to address the obvious red herring here. My argument is that the writers were negligent in this one regarding the female characters, and that constitutes unintentional sexism. I never made any claims about misogyny.

It's unrealistic for them all to use the exact same insult to the exclusion of all others. As plenty of others have pointed out, there's a number of alternatives, both gendered and non-gendered. "Freak", "Scum", "Piece of Shit" all would have worked. Or if you really want the thugs to come off as misogynist, there are alternatives like "hussy" that you can use and still keep your teen rating. Imagine this was an "E"-rated game and instead of "*****" they all used the word "meanie". That's what's so unrealistic about it.

So basically, what you're saying is that you have a problem with the writing and not the insults themselves. Good. I'm glad you pulled your head out of your ass.

Considering that's been my position the entire time, i'm not sure why you think my head was ever up there in the first place.

It's lazy writing that applies only to the female characters. When it came to the female characters they got lazy.

Batman is also insulted quite often, most of the times with the word "freak" and even ***** sometimes. This isn't misogyny, it's just lazy writing.

Again, I didn't say misogyny. It's lazy writing that disparately affects the female characters. Batman gets a wider variety of insults.

Nope, profanity is perfectly fuckin' fine with me. I know exactly what the thugs are saying, thank you and i'm perfectly OK with that, too. What offends me are the writers' insulting my intelligence and doing it in a (probably unintentionally) sexist way.

How do they insult your intelligence again?

By expecting me to find crappy writing acceptable.

Seriously, find me one reputable source that claims the word "*****" is now gender neutral and no one thinks of it as a misogynist slur anymore.

Xbox Live.

Oh sure, that's a representative sample of society as whole. Xbox live consists primarily of young men being assholes because they're anonymous on the internet and they can be. It's probably the last place i'd recommend anybody wanting to learn about the English language.

Why is Batman only referred to as a ***** once or twice in passing, while Catwoman and the other female characters are referred to as bitches almost constantly?

Laziness.

So we can agree that when it came to writing insults for the female characters, the writers got lazy?

 

[AndyFromMonday]

Dialogue in this case referring to all the voice acting in the game. I get the sense that we're not really speaking the same language here.

I'm not going to address the obvious red herring here. My argument is that the writers were negligent in this one regarding the female characters, and that constitutes unintentional sexism. I never made any claims about misogyny.

But it doesn't constitute sexism. All it constitutes is lazy writing. The only insult hurled towards batman is ***** and freak and the only insult hurled towards Catwoman is *****. This isn't lazy writing that led to unintentional sexism, this is just lazy writing.

Considering that's been my position the entire time, i'm not sure why you think my head was ever up there in the first place.

Now hold on a second. During this entire discussion your entire argument boiled down to "X insult is directed towards a woman, therefore it's sexist". The writing might be bad, but it's not sexist. Get over it.

Again, I didn't say misogyny. It's lazy writing that disparately affects the female characters. Batman gets a wider variety of insults.

I don't think you understand exactly what sexism is. And you're right, Batman does get a wider variety of insults ranging from ***** and freak to... well that's about it actually. In order for the writing to be inherently sexist it needs to "involves hatred of, or prejudice towards a gender as a whole or the blind application of gender stereotypes" for non-artistic reasons. I fail to see how the writing in Arkham City does this.

By expecting me to find crappy writing acceptable.

I didn't know the writing insulted your intelligence. Maybe you're to easily offended. If the writing insults your intelligence so much maybe you should not play the game or in case you just can't do that then maybe you should consider turning the volume off.

Oh sure, that's a representative sample of society as whole.

But random dictionary definitions do? Or rather the people behind that definition? It couldn't be that the meaning of the word changed or that it's never used with the original meaning, right? That has never happened before. The meaning of a word never changes.

So we can agree that when it came to writing insults for the female characters, the writers got lazy?

No, we can agree that the writing was poorly executed as a whole. There's nothing inherently sexist about the usage of the word ***** just like there's nothing inherently sexist about the usage of the word "dick" or "bastard".

 

[BrionJames]

Sounds like the guy writing the article has a problem with women, if this is such a problem for him. As everyone has said in posts above me, ***** is what criminals who have been in federal and state penitentiary's refer to women as, especially violent criminals. As far as I'm concerned it just makes me want to kick their ass' more. Right?

 

[DracoSuave]

snip

I'm going to assume you simply missed my post where I pre-empt and address your point, it's #311.

But I've already addressed that in the greater circle of character creation, saying, 'it's ok for this female to act like a slut, because she is one' is NOT acceptable when talking about serious character creation.

Why not? Is there something inherently wrong with sexual promiscuity?

This isn't a case of the chicks being like this for satire or to highlight the problems of it, this just is what it is, and I think it's a bit mad that not only do we not give a shit, but we actively argue amongst ourselves whether this even exists.

The word 'chick' devalues your argument, you know.

snip

I give you a challenge Mr. The Writers are lazy, guy.

Come up with 5 insults to Catwoman that have the same punch as 'You cut me, you *****!', carry the same tone of the piece, but can get by a T-rating.

Oh and one more thing?

They can't suck. If they sound camp, or 60s Batmanish, or like something that'd end up in a screen shot describing the Joker's boner... they'll be rejected swiftly.

Let's see some non-lazy writing here.