Armed civilian, 17, shoots 2 dead during Kenosha happening

[Revnak]

Personally I think if someone wanted to build an actual Black Panther-esque community defense militia to intimidate cops from continuing to murder with impunity I’d be down with that but our hyper alienated society makes that largely impossible as well as our legal system immediately labeling them a gang and arresting every member of leadership with anti-gang legislation.
Ultimately we will continue to have nothing but murder militias, gun clubs, and larpers because our legal system has been setup to make anything else impossible without great effort that could be spent organizing in more useful manners.

 

[Mister Mumbler]

Where are you getting that, "because he had an illegal weapon, self-defense is off the table"? Because that's not what the law says.

Of course. Nobody is arguing that.

In response to my argument about using an illegal weapon to kill someone in self-defense a few pages ago. And @Specter Von Baren, that would be true if, like our actual shooter, he failed to posses the proper license for the handgun, which considering he's probably an actual resident of Wisconsin, I'm more inclined to believe had the proper license than our shooter.

Honestly, the reason I feel the need to bang on this drum so hard is the fact that we've spent 30+ pages arguing about whether or not this fucking kid killing two people and seriously wounding a third is justified, but the fucking second the teams get flipped it gets rightfully called as an outrageously overblown act of violence that shouldn't have happened and...ugh, just some fucking consistency would be nice, you know?

EDIT: Words and stuff to make it clearer.

 

[Kwak]

Personally I think if someone wanted to build an actual Black Panther-esque community defense militia to intimidate cops from continuing to murder with impunity I’d be down with that but our hyper alienated society makes that largely impossible as well as our legal system immediately labeling them a gang and arresting every member of leadership with anti-gang legislation.
Ultimately we will continue to have nothing but murder militias, gun clubs, and larpers because our legal system has been setup to make anything else impossible without great effort that could be spent organizing in more useful manners.

Imagine if every cop-stop of a black citizen was immediately surrounded by a phalanx of black panther onlookers holding rifles, respectfully, just keeping an eye on things.
Beautiful.

 

[Revnak]

Imagine if every cop-stop of a black citizen was immediately surrounded by a phalanx of black panther onlookers holding rifles, respectfully, just keeping an eye on things.
Beautiful.

That is indeed why they killed the Panthers.

 

[deleted20220709]

DELETED

 

[Buyetyen]

I am not sure it is so much a legal problem as a cultural problem. If white guys buys a ton of 5.11 and HelikonTex gear and some AR15 derivative semi-auto rifles, make themselves a "war banner" (preferably with a skull or animal motif) and steal the name of a historical militia unit, that's a-ok. If black or Latino guys all buy shirts of a matching color and a bunch of handguns and shotguns and set a rotation schedule for patrolling the block, that's a criminal gang. It has nothing to do with laws and everything with how public perception colors similar actions taken by people of different ethnicities.

The laws are written and enforced reflective of and perpetuate that cultural bias. They're joined at the hip. As race and class so often are. American conservatives see the gun as a mythic weapon. It is the symbol of American exceptionalism. What they acknowledge far less often is that ever since the inception of the country the gun has also been the symbol of white hegemony. They freak the fuck out at people of color arming themselves because that's supposed to be the exclusive privilege/right of white people. The second amendment was originally written to appease slave owners and put down slave revolts. While they'll never admit that today, the right in America never stopped thinking of the 2A on some level in the context of its original intent.

 

[Specter Von Baren]

In response to my argument about using an illegal weapon to kill someone in self-defense a few pages ago. And @Specter Von Baren, that would be true if, like our actual shooter, he failed to posses the proper license for the handgun, which considering he's probably an actual resident of Wisconsin, I'm more inclined to believe had the proper license than our shooter.

Honestly, the reason I feel the need to bang on this drum so hard is the fact that we've spent 30+ pages arguing about whether or not this fucking kid killing two people and seriously wounding a third is justified, but the fucking second the teams get flipped it gets rightfully called as an outrageously overblown act of violence that shouldn't have happened and...ugh, just some fucking consistency would be nice, you know?

EDIT: Words and stuff to make it clearer.

The man, Grosskreutz, is not allowed to possess a firearm due to his criminal history.

As to your second comment, I assume you're talking about the Portland incident thread? I have no idea what's going on with that yet so I can't make any comment one way or the other at this time. Once we have more information then I'll make an assessment.

 

[Houseman]

In response to my argument about using an illegal weapon to kill someone in self-defense a few pages ago. And @Specter Von Baren, that would be true if, like our actual shooter, he failed to posses the proper license for the handgun, which considering he's probably an actual resident of Wisconsin, I'm more inclined to believe had the proper license than our shooter.

Honestly, the reason I feel the need to bang on this drum so hard is the fact that we've spent 30+ pages arguing about whether or not this fucking kid killing two people and seriously wounding a third is justified, but the fucking second the teams get flipped it gets rightfully called as an outrageously overblown act of violence that shouldn't have happened and...ugh, just some fucking consistency would be nice, you know?

EDIT: Words and stuff to make it clearer.

I was inaccurate.

When I said "nobody is arguing that", I meant that nobody is arguing that "he used a weapon he should not have had" and "I would still catch a manslaughter charge of some kind still due to the illegal weapon I used to defend myself", not "self-defense doesn't matter because he used a weapon he should not have had"

That's the part you repeated most recently: "he was carrying an illegal weapon and therefore self-defense is inapplicable here."

That's the part I am asking you to explain your reasoning on. Why do you believe that self-defense gets taken off the table when an illegal weapon is involved? You have never explained why you believe this to be true.

Because it appears to me that you think that crimes combine, or it's some sort of all-or-nothing gamble. You seem to think that, if he gets off on self-defense, all charges are dropped and he walks away a free man without any legal repercussions at all. Conversely, you seem to think that if he's guilty of one thing, then he's guilty of everything. But these are all just speculations because YOU HAVEN'T EXPLAINED YOUR REASONING.

So if you could answer my question and explain why you think that self-defense no longer applies because he has an illegal weapon, and point to where the law says this, I'd appreciate it.

 

[Specter Von Baren]

Not that I have ever heard of.. Maybe in other tribes oral histories, but then again, those might just have been red headed vikings by the way they were described. XD

(Note: Feel free to ignore my ramblings here)

Ohhh! Actually now that I think about it, there's an interesting through line here. As far as I'm aware, tales of giants predominantly come from the European continent. A lot of those stories, of giants and trolls, come from the northern Nordic countries. The Vikings had visited the Americas. There are legends in various places that speak of giants in America. Maybe the giants were Nordic people or some other race of humans?

And if we want to go even further down the "wooweewoo" hole, what modern legends do we have of large giant/trollish beings? Big Foot!

And if we want to make this even SPICIER, we can link these tales of giant all the way back to Jewish stories of the Nephilim!

Ohhhhh, that is a SPICY meatball!

 

[Houseman]

Here's what an actual lawyer has to say on the subject:


@Mister Mumbler notice how in the description he says "Yes, Kyle probably broke the law in that he was a minor open carrying a firearm. However, Kyle breaking that law does not mean he forfeits his right to self-defense if it is justified." which directly contradicts what you have said.

 

[Iron]

Kenosha Police arrested 175 people last week

Unrest has continued in Kenosha, Wisconsin, after last weekend's police shooting of Jacob Blake, a 29-year-old Black father. Follow here for the latest.

edition.cnn.com

Kenosha Police: Out of 175 arrested, 102 are from OUT OF STATE. In total they have addresses listed from 44 different states.
Local protest MY ASS.
Hey guys what about people crossing state lines to burn a police station? Smash up cars? Burn businesses and houses? Is that ok?

 

[lil devils x]

Kenosha Police arrested 175 people last week

Unrest has continued in Kenosha, Wisconsin, after last weekend's police shooting of Jacob Blake, a 29-year-old Black father. Follow here for the latest.

edition.cnn.com

View attachment 686
Kenosha Police: Out of 175 arrested, 102 are from OUT OF STATE. In total they have addresses listed from 44 different states.
Local protest MY ASS.
Hey guys what about people crossing state lines to burn a police station? Smash up cars? Burn businesses and houses? Is that ok?

You are realizing that the events leading up to these arrests brought MANY people from out of state right? These arrests include protesters and the right wing wannabes next action heroes. The more this shit was on the news, the more people came out of the woodwork from other states because of it, just like the militia that showed up there. Most of the local protesters have homes to go home to rather than be arrested...

You are realizing that these are not just protesters being arrested right? Where is it showing they were arrested for burning up cars? Looks like drugs, weapons and burglary charges. They SHOULD be arresting people for burning up cars but if they are they didn't talk about it here.

 

[Iron]

You are realizing that the events leading up to these arrests brought MANY people from out of state right? These arrests include protesters and the right wing wannabes next action heroes. The more this shit was on the news, the more people came out of the woodwork from other states because of it. Most of the local protesters have homes to go home to rather than be arrested...

You are realizing that these are not just protesters being arrested right?

I thought the police didn't arrest right wingers, like how they didn't arrest kyle. People here said that the police is corrupt, racist, and that ACAB. So now they're doing their jobs, when the numbers aren't flattering? N I C E
I read the reddit for the city from day 2, before it got private. There had been people invading their city since day 1 burning shit in the city.

 

[lil devils x]

I thought the police didn't arrest right wingers, like how they didn't arrest kyle. People here said that the police is corrupt, racist, and that ACAB. So now they're doing their jobs, when the numbers aren't flattering? N I C E
I read the reddit for the city from day 2, before it got private. There had been people invading their city since day 1 burning shit in the city.

They certainly better have started after they started murdering people. The police can be corrupt and still arrest right wingers AFTER they are in the spotlight for doing a shitty job at is as well. The numbers are not flattering to who? Who is supposed to be flattered by numbers of arrests? None of that even makes sense.

Of course there have been people invading their city from day 1 burning shit. That is why the police should have done a better job from the beginning because they KNEW that shooting an unarmed black man in the back 7 fucking times is going to bring hellfire down on their city and should have prepared for it. No one said otherwise. That doesn't mean that there weren't local protesters there. They were, they spoke publicly about what happened. More people showing up both good and bad does not somehow change any of the other stuff that was happening and I am not sure why you think it would. Police should have been prepared for all of it because it isn't like this is the first time this has happened. You expect protesters to show up, you expect those hoping to exploit the protests to show up for personal gain, you expect the right wing extremists to show up.. ALL these people always do when something like this happens, that is why the police should have been prepared for it. No one was not expecting this to happen. TBH those numbers look low considering what was actually happening here.

 

[Iron]

They certainly better have started after they started murdering people. The police can be corrupt and still arrest right wingers AFTER they are in the spotlight for doing a shitty job at is as well. The numbers are not flattering to who? Who is supposed to be flattered by numbers of arrests? None of that even makes sense.

Of course there have been people invading their city from day 1 burning shit. That is why the police should have done a better job from the beginning because they KNEW that shooting an unarmed black man in the back 7 fucking times is going to bring hellfire down on their city and should have prepared for it. No one said otherwise. That doesn't mean that weren't local protesters there. They were, they spoke publicly about what happened. More people showing up both good and bad does not somehow change any of the other stuff that was happening and I am not sure why you think it would. Police should have been prepared for all of it because it isn't like this is the first time this has happened. You expect protesters to show up, you expect those hoping to exploit the protests to show up for personal gain, you expect the right wing extremists to show up.. ALL these people always do when something like this happens, that is why the police should have been prepared for it. No one was not expecting this to happen.

Coming from out of state to protect a business is wrong but coming out of state to burn a business is ok?

 

[lil devils x]

Coming from out of state to protect a business is wrong but coming out of state to burn a business is ok?

Show me anywhere in any of these threads were anyone said that or even remotely insinuated that. If that is what you gathered from above, you need to reread it until you no longer gather that. The militias coming = bad. The people coming to exploit the protests = bad. It was pretty clearly laid out above. BOTH of those things are equally BAD. It is the police's job to protect the businesses, not some stupid kids from out of state that just wind up telling people to get out of their cars at gunpoint and murdering them. Adding more bad to an already bad situation does not somehow amount to good no matter how you try to spin it.

 

[Houseman]

That's the problem with taking sides. When someone on the "bad" team does a thing, you criticize it, but when someone on the "good" team does a thing, you have to scramble to make up reasons as to why what they did was justified.

 

[Thaluikhain]

Ohhh! Actually now that I think about it, there's an interesting through line here. As far as I'm aware, tales of giants predominantly come from the European continent. A lot of those stories, of giants and trolls, come from the northern Nordic countries. The Vikings had visited the Americas. There are legends in various places that speak of giants in America. Maybe the giants were Nordic people or some other race of humans?

Aw, you missed the chance to say that if Viking humans visited the Americas, and Vikings believed in giants, then perhaps Viking giants visited the Americas as well.

I don't think giants are predominantly European, though. Compare the Tibetan Yeti or the Australian Yowie (or some Australian Bunyips, they vary), and I'm sure there's others.

 

[Revnak]

Kenosha Police arrested 175 people last week

Unrest has continued in Kenosha, Wisconsin, after last weekend's police shooting of Jacob Blake, a 29-year-old Black father. Follow here for the latest.

edition.cnn.com

View attachment 686
Kenosha Police: Out of 175 arrested, 102 are from OUT OF STATE. In total they have addresses listed from 44 different states.
Local protest MY ASS.
Hey guys what about people crossing state lines to burn a police station? Smash up cars? Burn businesses and houses? Is that ok?

I don’t think the being from out of state mattered aside from federal statutes for bringing guns. If somebody does think crossing state lines should be viewed as an incriminating factor, I’m confused. At most it shows someone is particularly ideologically motivated. It’s also an absurdly easily manipulated statistic since “arrests” boil down to the guys the cops decide to keep. Further, it’s self-selecting since those coming from out of state would be less likely to move in groups, have an accessible way out of being bottled in, have somewhere within walking distance to go to avoid arrest, etc. Ultimately this doesn’t amount to much meaningful information.

 

[Iron]

I don’t think the being from out of state mattered aside from federal statutes for bringing guns. If somebody does think crossing state lines should be viewed as an incriminating factor, I’m confused. At most it shows someone is particularly ideologically motivated. It’s also an absurdly easily manipulated statistic since “arrests” boil down to the guys the cops decide to keep. Further, it’s self-selecting since those coming from out of state would be less likely to move in groups, have an accessible way out of being bottled in, have somewhere within walking distance to go to avoid arrest, etc. Ultimately this doesn’t amount to much meaningful information.

Anarchist tourist, this is what it is. Come to Kenosha, burn some buildings and smash cars. Bash the Fash! It's ok to hit a nazi! Fight the good fight!