Atheists and Theists are both right

[NeverAiling]

I can't go to sleep now. Someone is WRONG on the internet.

lol

Blackout I hope you have fun with that philosophy. I wish I had never read this, but there's not really much I can say. It's a weird feeling. I guess I'm one of those really annoying people that just mummbles aimlessly instead of being properly speechless.

I'll stop now.

 

[Sane Man]

No, automatic respect for religion and belief proposed by moderates merely lays the groundwork for fundamentalists. I say rubbish to it all. Get rid of it all. I don't respect them because they believe in garbage.

Let me put it to you this way. I love my mother and she's a very smart woman. I also think she's a moron for believing in god. I do not respect her for her faith. I actually am ashamed that a college educated woman could actually believe the shit that is in the bible.

Religion and automatic respect for it in all of its inane forms is hobbling this country. It hobbles this world. I will not respect you for ludicrous bullshit. Especially if that ludicrous bullshit leads one to murder nonbelievers.

So you respect atheist leaders who have killed more people in the last century than all wars combined, all murders, and any deaths (how small they were) that religion has caused in that century? You believe the purported myth that religion is the main cause of wars, which is wholly inaccurate and ignorant for someone that is suppose to be "beyond religion" because of your intellect. According to your logic we better not respect most people on these forums, because they are atheist. How narrow-minded of you.

Please.

 

[PsykoDragon]

...

I kinda got lost in the whole thing, but...

The goal then is not to have the "right belief." The goal is to work out our karma. I've found the best method for working out ones karma is to do so as part of a community. Heaven is a life of meaning and compassion. Hell is a life of suffering without purpose. We can transcend hell for all if we can find a way to work together. This is true whether God exists or not.

I liked this. Pretty much what I say to my friends about my atheism is "I don't care about the fact that I don't believe in God or His existence, what's important to me is that I learn to be kind & just." When they ask me how I know the right way to be kind & just, my response is, ironically, "The good parts that I believe in to be true in all religions, along with natural instinct that I have been taught by my parents, as they are responsible for the person I am today."

 

[cuddly_tomato]

Well, then let's just respect the hell out of the belief that non-believers need to die. That is what you're proposing. The 19 hijackers on 09.11.01 were nothing if not true believers. What else could make educated middle class men hijack and fly planes into buildings?

Well then lets just respect the hell out of the "Godlike atheist" who went on a shooting spree in a Finnish school in order to promote "Social Darwinism"...

"It's time to put NATURAL SELECTION & SURVIVAL OF THE FITTEST back on tracks! [http://www.news.com.au/heraldsun/story/0,21985,22722981-663,00.html]"

Now, how retarded would it be of me to associate all atheists and people who believe in natural selection with that person?

You are doing the exact same when you associate Archbishop Desmond Tutu [http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Desmond_Tutu#Church_reform] with 9/11 highjackers.

From your posts in the other threads it is clear that you are not an atheist but are merely theophobic. I will say just one thing to you - start being more tolerant or forever live your life as a jackass. The choice is yours.

 

[Cowabungaa]

No one is right, No one is wrong. The truth of god is subjective to the faith of a person. What they believe is the reality to them.

Not really, since when is the existance of something bound to an opinion? I can beleive I have a Ferrari on my doorstep, but that doesn't make it so. Similair with the existance of supreme beings/deity's, fairy's or the Loch Ness monster. Believing in them doesn't suddenly make them real. They could be, obviously, but it's not our choice whereither they do or not. Our control on reality is extremely limited.

Anyway, I don't get all the fuss about atheïsme. Most people on earth, if not all, are atheïsts for at least a fair amount of the total deity's 'known' today. The people we call atheïsts here, usually include just óne more deity. Fact that that is one of the most popular one's today makes it a lot more contraversial, apperantly.

 

[r0botosaurus]

I'm going to tell you something that my Religion & Society teacher told me once.
Agnostics are the only people who are right. You can say that you believe in God 100% or that you don't believe in God at all, but in the end, you really don't know, and you can't really prove it either way. When theists gang up on agnostics they say "what's wrong? You can't make up your mind, you pussy? Come on, leap of faith!" And the Agnostic says "exactly. Leap of faith."

 

[bluerahjah]

Men never do evil so completely and cheerfully as when they do it from religious conviction. -Blaise Pascal

'I have ass-mark too' - Kyle Gass

Quotes do not constitute argumentative proof. Sorry, but i needed to call this one.

HAHAHA, the best post ever. And such a great movie.

On topic : I don't really feel the need to delve head first into this as, like everyone, I have my own beliefs, or in this case non-beliefs thanks to many years of, well let's just call it "Judith-ism". (Referring to the song Judith by A Perfect Circle.)

 

[Simriel]

No one is right, No one is wrong. The truth of god is subjective to the faith of a person. What they believe is the reality to them.

Not really, since when is the existance of something bound to an opinion? I can beleive I have a Ferrari on my doorstep, but that doesn't make it so. Similair with the existance of supreme beings/deity's, fairy's or the Loch Ness monster. Believing in them doesn't suddenly make them real. They could be, obviously, but it's not our choice whereither they do or not. Our control on reality is extremely limited.

Anyway, I don't get all the fuss about atheïsme. Most people on earth, if not all, are atheïsts for at least a fair amount of the total deity's 'known' today. The people we call atheïsts here, usually include just óne more deity. Fact that that is one of the most popular one's today makes it a lot more contraversial, apperantly.

I didn't say it WAS reality. But faith shapes what is reality to them. The truth is always subjective.

 

[gibboss28]

I can prove god exists right now: The Platypus.
Yes. Yes. And yes. (I just preemptively answered all your questions in reverse order.)

...Dogma?

 

[Falseprophet]

Atheism = belief there's no God, ergo, the universe is natural. You have a different definition in mind? I'm curious to hear it.

Atheism = belief there's no God or gods, period, full stop. This does not preclude atheists from believing in supernatural BS.

An Ayn Randian libertarian, a Stalinist, a Theravada Buddhist, a Raelian and a secular humanist are all technically atheists, but there's probably little else they agree on.

When I was a 21-year-old student of postmodernist philosophy, I devised a lot of metaphysical theories of everything too. They all seem kind of pointless now. Hegel once claimed the greatest scandal of Western philosophy was its inability to formulate a metaphysics that worked. But I think it was Heidegger who retorted the greatest scandal was the belief that it was necessary to have a system of metaphysics.

 

[Zersy]

(unless my thread is totally stupid and no one cares.)

Actually this was very intresting and worth my time

all though it didn't make that much sense at first

but overall i like this post

 

[elmaxx]

I didn't say it WAS reality. But faith shapes what is reality to them. The truth is always subjective.

Reality is determined by your own focus.

Faith can be many things, but for argument's sake, in a religious sense, let's say faith is the belief that a supernatural force will shape my destiny. That is a very mundane way of seeing things. I honestly prefer the more general approach of the word: loyalty or allegiance to a cause or a person: "keep the faith". For example.

What cause?

That makes an interesting question. A good friend once said, there is no "God" because our vision of him changes according to our preconceived ideas and beliefs that guide us.

I think that statement was very true, some people see god as a grumpy old man that passes judgment on our choices and actions. Others see Science as God, their findings show how the universe works and its something so much bigger than our intelect, a constant source of amazement and inspiration. I prefer to think that God is the omnipresent force that keeps harmony in the chaos of the whole universe.

A ha... but what about religion? its just a bunch of rules, it can be zen, it can be poetry, it can be a political leaning (left/right/green/whatever), whatever guides your thoughts, actions or lack thereof. So your God will be in a very ironic sense, someone or something that may represent your values, something or someone based on your "image".

About the truth being subjective?

hmmm... yeah it can be subjective, as in you as an individual hold a series of thoughts and experiences that make you believe and act as you usually do.

But, it is also important to keep things objective, in the sense that every individual is unique, and had a 50% chance of being of the opposite gender, 1/billion chance of being born as another species, 1/xxxx of being born as whatever, or not, chaos may be what brought us here... but if you ask me, there is so much harmony within this chaos is just mind boggling.

Everyone is special.

Also, it is quite important to be inclusive when being subjective, the collective thoughts might reward us with better insights into our own nature than you may be aware of.


Good thread, i like. I just hope i provided something to it

Oh, and yeah, i consider myself a christian. its a rather decent set of rules that i like. And in all honesty i would love to see what Jesus give for food at his place when he comes around a second time

 

[Cowabungaa]

No one is right, No one is wrong. The truth of god is subjective to the faith of a person. What they believe is the reality to them.

Not really, since when is the existance of something bound to an opinion? I can beleive I have a Ferrari on my doorstep, but that doesn't make it so. Similair with the existance of supreme beings/deity's, fairy's or the Loch Ness monster. Believing in them doesn't suddenly make them real. They could be, obviously, but it's not our choice whereither they do or not. Our control on reality is extremely limited.

Anyway, I don't get all the fuss about atheïsme. Most people on earth, if not all, are atheïsts for at least a fair amount of the total deity's 'known' today. The people we call atheïsts here, usually include just óne more deity. Fact that that is one of the most popular one's today makes it a lot more contraversial, apperantly.

I didn't say it WAS reality. But faith shapes what is reality to them. The truth is always subjective.

And @ Elmax:
Not really. Reality or 'truth' (it's a difficult word) is the same for all of us, this planet is no different for you or for me, it came into existance because of the same events for you and for me. What's really different is the way we percieve reality, we all create an image of reality, that's subjective. But reality itself is not. Either a deity exists (whereither it exists in a different dimension, or it's only visible when you do certain things, whatever) or it does not, either a fairy exists or it does not. You may beleive what you want, but that doesn't actually change the answer to the question "Does exists?". The answer is already there, we just haven't found it (yet), so all we can do is have an opinion about it.

 

[Chris_24]

No, automatic respect for religion and belief proposed by moderates merely lays the groundwork for fundamentalists. I say rubbish to it all. Get rid of it all. I don't respect them because they believe in garbage.

Let me put it to you this way. I love my mother and she's a very smart woman. I also think she's a moron for believing in god. I do not respect her for her faith. I actually am ashamed that a college educated woman could actually believe the shit that is in the bible.

Religion and automatic respect for it in all of its inane forms is hobbling this country. It hobbles this world. I will not respect you for ludicrous bullshit. Especially if that ludicrous bullshit leads one to murder nonbelievers.

So you respect atheist leaders who have killed more people in the last century than all wars combined, all murders, and any deaths (how small they were) that religion has caused in that century? You believe the purported myth that religion is the main cause of wars, which is wholly inaccurate and ignorant for someone that is suppose to be "beyond religion" because of your intellect. According to your logic we better not respect most people on these forums, because they are atheist. How narrow-minded of you.

Please.

No, he's saying you shouldn't respect their BELIEFS, but you should respect the people. And I seriously doubt any of these atheist leaders who killed people did it because of their atheism. Even if it was to do with atheism most likely they did it because they held some kind of irrational belief, ie. religion should be destroyed by force.

It's the irrational belief that shouldn't be respected, especially if it causes harm, like religion. Sure, most religious people are nice, but like saneman says it's their irrational beliefs [faith] that lay the groundwork for fundamentalists. The 'nice' moderate religous people provide a sort of protection for the fundamentalists because the fundamentalists sound like they are just twisting the religion since they are in the minority, when in fact, I would say, the moderates are the ones twisting it (in a good way ) from the immoral belief it really is, into something more acceptable, picking and choosing nice bits from whatever holy book they choose. The fundamentalists have a lot of faith in the whole religion and even if there are a few peaceful passages in their holy book, they are easily manipulatable (if that's a word) by other fundamentalists/ extremists because of their faith, and being taught to trust authority, who could persuade them into violence.

...But that's just what I think.

Ps. First post!

 

[wowcrendor]

I hate whenever people bring religion into games, movies, etc. I am Christian myself, but I don't go around yelling at people that aren't. If I like pizza, and you don't, I'm not going to shove pizza in your face until you eat it. I feel people should respect each other, and just keep your beliefs to yourself.

 

[confernal]

Better yet, people need to stop thinking they're better than one another when neither can prove anything at all. We all need a little respect for each others' beliefs.

Well, then let's just respect the hell out of the belief that non-believers need to die. That is what you're proposing. The 19 hijackers on 09.11.01 were nothing if not true believers. What else could make educated middle class men hijack and fly planes into buildings?

If you say we must respect religion and beliefs, then we must respect the worst. We must respect the Jonestowns and the suicide bombers.

I do not respect your religion or your beliefs, much like you don't respect mine. At least I don't believe in a perfect sky fairy who has to impress us by incarnating as his own son and then get crucified just so I could agree with myself not to let you burn in a hell of my own creation for all eternity.

Wait... that would be an oxymoron of itself since it could be someones belief that killing people is what they have to do... yet at the same time it could be someone elses belief that no one should kill them... So were back to square one.

 

[Red Right Hand]

What's the crux of my arguement? Simply that we CAN'T answer some questions i.e. Does God exist. We have to choose. Atheism and Theism are choices.

But WHY do we have to choose! Is it not accaptable to have the nice thought that there is a higher power waiting for us to save us from sin, but on the other hand have a nice thought that we are truly free, that nothing matters, we can think and do as we please with no divine power intervening in the afterlife!

 

[cuddly_tomato]

No, he's saying you shouldn't respect their BELIEFS, but you should respect the people. And I seriously doubt any of these atheist leaders who killed people did it because of their atheism. Even if it was to do with atheism most likely they did it because they held some kind of irrational belief, ie. religion should be destroyed by force.

Ahhh. Hate the sin not the sinner.

You know when homophobic people say they don't hate gay people, but they just hate the fact aome people are gay? Well... erm... you might want to take a look at them and then yourself sometime.

 

[Chris_24]

Wheras you're saying what? Hate the sin AND the sinner? Or NOT hating the sin or the sinner at all?

 

[baker80]

I really love it when people like this guy go all philosophical. It's really the only proof you'll ever need that there is a reason why proper philosophers are supposed to get years of education before anyone takes them even remotely seriously. We have a name for this kind of thing where I come from, we call it "pub philosophy." It means that you're basically randomly spewing out a bunch of crap that makes sense only to someone who's completely drunk.

Basically, that's what we have here. It takes a really special kind of person to start a discussion off by saying "I'm a Taoist Christian most days. I'm also a fundamentalist Christian and a misanthropic atheist." It also takes a huge willingness to take mutually exclusive ideas and obfuscate and butcher and misrepresent them horribly, all to make them fit together like some kind of mutated, slime-oozing Frankenstein of theology - and then be insulted when people call you out on it.