Atheists and Theists are both right

[Captain Blackout]

This outta be interesting. First a couple of ground rules:
1. Theism = Belief in god or gods. I'm using a very general definition since a strict definition requires that said god(s) are understood through revelation. Deism says god(s) are understood through natural observance and logic. Basically I'm saying both methods are valid and calling belief in god(s) no matter method of understanding Theism.
2. Because the term God often calls to mind the Fatherly figure of the Judeo-Christian spectrum I want to make it clear that when I say God I'm talking about the primary supernatural force, regardless of specific traditions. I'm a Taoist Christian most days. I'm also a fundamentalist Christian and a misanthropic atheist but I'm leaving those out for this thread. When I mention God I'm referring to the same being Jesus (outside of his Jewish background), Lao Tzu and Native Americans pointed to when they referred to Abba, the Tao, or the Great Spirit. Three views of the same thing.
Ok here goes:
We live in a physical universe ruled by natural laws. There is no need for God for the universe to exist. Even life may well be nothing more than energy organizing itself as it cascades down from higher potentials to lower ones. I think of the Mandlebrot set as an image of what such a thing might look like: Energy achieving high levels of complexity because the upper potential is so far above the lower potential that much room exists for much to happen. We may well be nothing more than self-aware biological machines barely all that different in the end from cockroaches. And yet...
Lao Tzu recognized a force in the universe. He called it "older than the gods." The gods he was referring to were the pantheons of China, the native traditional expressions of the world as they understood it. Many people the world over have felt a connection to the divine and I find it unlikely that they're all completely wrong.
So why this world where suffering exists in abundance and God seems absent? For me it seems the following things are true if God exists:
This world is a home to all spirits present with the ability to choose what they believe in. In order for atheists to have a home the universe must look natural, else atheism would fail quickly. Those who reach for the divine can find it. Those who reach for rationality can find it. Throughout our lives we work out our karma, often with great suffering. Suffering is not evil when viewed across many lives for each spirit (yes I just invoked some form of re-incarnation)
The goal then is not to have the "right belief." The goal is to work out our karma. I've found the best method for working out ones karma is to do so as part of a community. Heaven is a life of meaning and compassion. Hell is a life of suffering without purpose. We can transcend hell for all if we can find a way to work together. This is true whether God exists or not.
I'm certain I will get flamed. Fine. Make sure your flames are intelligent. As a practicing pirate I love to return fire and have been known to do so liberally. Personally I'd prefer an intelligent discourse. Either way I'll have fun (unless my thread is totally stupid and no one cares.)

 

[Lavi]

Better yet, people need to stop thinking they're better than one another when neither can prove anything at all. We all need a little respect for each others' beliefs.

 

[Compatriot Block]

Hmmmm. Very thought-provoking.

 

[MaxFan]

So the goal of things is not to find out what's true and believe that? Seems a rather strange sentiment to me. Might as well stop anything to do with science or religion.

 

[Jaga Jazzist]

Well yes it's very easy to get everything 'figured out' when you're only rationalising things based on your own definitions and generalizations. But not everyone shares the same views on deism, theism or atheism as you do and I hardly think they'll be inclined to change their own definition of what life and love is based upon someone else's Tuesday evening ponderings.
I mean pointing out that there really is no 'better games console' because everyone likes different games doesn't seem to have worked and that's nowhere near as complex or important as, oh, the meaning of life.
Sorry

PS Where does Agnosticism fit into this?

Edit: I'm not saying necessarily it's a bad theory, it's just I think it has no practical use whatsoever.

 

[versusterminus7]

Better yet, people need to stop thinking they're better than one another when neither can prove anything at all. We all need a little respect for each others' beliefs.

Amen! ... or, amen used in this context

 

[Delicious]

I'm certain I will get flamed. Fine. Make sure your flames are intelligent. As a practicing pirate I love to return fire and have been known to do so liberally. Personally I'd prefer an intelligent discourse. Either way I'll have fun (unless my thread is totally stupid and no one cares.)

Your post is stupid because it is long and composed of words.

Yargh! Arm the cannons!

 

[PayNSprayBandit]

[youtube=J4MUpBiKtBc

 

[CapnGod]

Better yet, people need to stop thinking they're better than one another when neither can prove anything at all. We all need a little respect for each others' beliefs.

Well, then let's just respect the hell out of the belief that non-believers need to die. That is what you're proposing. The 19 hijackers on 09.11.01 were nothing if not true believers. What else could make educated middle class men hijack and fly planes into buildings?

If you say we must respect religion and beliefs, then we must respect the worst. We must respect the Jonestowns and the suicide bombers.

I do not respect your religion or your beliefs, much like you don't respect mine. At least I don't believe in a perfect sky fairy who has to impress us by incarnating as his own son and then get crucified just so I could agree with myself not to let you burn in a hell of my own creation for all eternity.

 

[Lavi]

Better yet, people need to stop thinking they're better than one another when neither can prove anything at all. We all need a little respect for each others' beliefs.

Well, then let's just respect the hell out of the belief that non-believers need to die. That is what you're proposing. The 19 hijackers on 09.11.01 were nothing if not true believers. What else could make educated middle class men hijack and fly planes into buildings?

If you say we must respect religion and beliefs, then we must respect the worst. We must respect the Jonestowns and the suicide bombers.

I do not respect your religion or your beliefs, much like you don't respect mine. At least I don't believe in a perfect sky fairy who has to impress us by incarnating as his own son and then get crucified just so I could agree with myself not to let you burn in a hell of my own creation for all eternity.

Who said I didn't respect you? It works both ways you know. Religious people need to respect people of other religions and athiests. As for extremists, you hate them for what they do, not what they believe. Not all religious people are gonna go bombing.

 

[Captain Blackout]

So the goal of things is not to find out what's true and believe that? Seems a rather strange sentiment to me. Might as well stop anything to do with science or religion.

Science and religion have their roles. At their best they are tools for us to use while working with one another. More importantly, in a world where truth often seems relative and the big questions are often impossible to answer how shall we live our lives with uncertainty? The best answers I've come up with is embrace the uncertainty and take care of one another no matter the personal beliefs.

Well yes it's very easy to get everything 'figured out' when you're only rationalising things based on your own definitions and generalizations. But not everyone shares the same views on deism, theism or atheism as you do and I hardly think they'll be inclined to change their own definition of what life and love is based upon someone else's Tuesday evening ponderings.
I mean pointing out that there really is no 'better games console' because everyone likes different games doesn't seem to have worked and that's nowhere near as complex or important as, oh, the meaning of life.
Sorry

PS Where does Agnosticism fit into this?

First, this isn't a "Tuesday evening pondering." You want the full skinny then buy the book if I ever write it. This is a forum thread and I've bogged the first post down enough. Secondly I pulled the definition of theism from dictionary.com. If I had a term that covered weak theism and deism together I would use it. Maybe you could suggest one? Atheism = belief there's no God, ergo, the universe is natural. You have a different definition in mind? I'm curious to hear it. Third I'm not trying to change anyone's definition of live and love. Those terms have their own definitions. I am looking to view life from both sides (theist and atheist) at the same time. Love (not the silly crap in many movies) = compassion. You want to understand compassion? Read either the Tao Te Jhing or Existential Psychotherapy. Preferably both.
I do not go in well for poorly formulated deconstruction without something more to replace what has been deconstructed.
Finally: Agnosticism fits well. Poor agnosticism = I don't know and I don't care. Good agnosticism = I don't know, so I'll do the best I can with what I do know. We don't need the ultimate answers to love each other. We just need to reach out without prejudice, look at the world from another point of view, and help each other with our karma.

 

[Captain Blackout]

I'm certain I will get flamed. Fine. Make sure your flames are intelligent. As a practicing pirate I love to return fire and have been known to do so liberally. Personally I'd prefer an intelligent discourse. Either way I'll have fun (unless my thread is totally stupid and no one cares.)

Your post is stupid because it is long and composed of words.

Yargh! Arm the cannons!

Hrmm.....so more pictures and less long.....I can't *****, it seems an intelligent reply.

 

[Jaga Jazzist]

Better yet, people need to stop thinking they're better than one another when neither can prove anything at all. We all need a little respect for each others' beliefs.

Well, then let's just respect the hell out of the belief that non-believers need to die. That is what you're proposing. The 19 hijackers on 09.11.01 were nothing if not true believers. What else could make educated middle class men hijack and fly planes into buildings?

If you say we must respect religion and beliefs, then we must respect the worst. We must respect the Jonestowns and the suicide bombers.

DERP DERP DERP DERP DERP DERP WOO DERP DERP.

Respecting someone's beliefs and respecting the individual person are two different things. It's more about respecting a person's beliefs and then hating the shit out off them for what they chose to do because of those beliefs.


Also making cheap potshots at religion is so passé, don't you think? I mean 'perfect sky fairy'? Loll, man I'm pretty sure it's 2009 now.

 

[sheic99]

I can prove god exists right now: The Platypus.
Yes. Yes. And yes. (I just preemptively answered all your questions in reverse order.)

Therefore proving the existence god and disapears in a flash of smoke.

 

[Seldon2639]

You make an interesting point of the possible cohabitation of the different theistic beliefs, but little justification for a convalescence of theism and atheism. At the core of your argument, you make the argument from design for the existence of god (or some supernatural force). That's fine, but doesn't really bridge the gap between belief and non-belief. If what you mean about both being right is that both agree that energy exists in the universe, of course they're both correct. But, they also both believe that the universe exists (aside from the crazy epistemologists). It is the nature of that energy and of that universe that is the question.

You view the question through the schema of your beliefs. That's fine (and what most people do), but it doesn't allow you to unify things which cannot be unified. Instead, you arrive at an Unitarian Universalism argument wherein any way one seeks "truth" is on the correct "path". But that's still not compatible with a belief that there is no "path". At the crux of this is the idea that there is a duality of existence: rational and supernatural. That's fine, now just take out the "supernatural" part, and you'll have atheism down. Take out the "rational" part, and it'll be theism. But to accept that there is supernatural elements to anything is to reject the fundamental conclusion of atheism (and existentialism): this is all there is.

The idea that we're all working through karma in our own ways is charming, and a good way to make the "why can't we all get along" argument, but it presumes that karma exists. Yes, I know, you see that "many people the world over have felt a connection to the divine and I find it unlikely that they're all completely wrong", but there's no evidence that they're not all completely wrong. Remember, many people the world over have believed that earth was the center of the universe, or that a heavier object falls faster than a lighter one. Universality of belief does not render said belief correct.

 

[Captain Blackout]

Quick note: There's a group, I dunno name, trying to reform extremist muslims. Consists of psychologists and imams amongst others.
Basic beliefs are left intact, murderous actions are dealt with. And they've had some success. This is helping each other work out karma in a very practical sense.

 

[MaxFan]

So the goal of things is not to find out what's true and believe that? Seems a rather strange sentiment to me. Might as well stop anything to do with science or religion.

Science and religion have their roles. At their best they are tools for us to use while working with one another. More importantly, in a world where truth often seems relative and the big questions are often impossible to answer how shall we live our lives with uncertainty? The best answers I've come up with is embrace the uncertainty and take care of one another no matter the personal beliefs.

So where does your personal belief that we should embrace uncertainty and take care of others come from?

...in a world where truth often seems relative...

Seeming and being are not the same thing, last I checked.

 

[CapnGod]

No, automatic respect for religion and belief proposed by moderates merely lays the groundwork for fundamentalists. I say rubbish to it all. Get rid of it all. I don't respect them because they believe in garbage.

Let me put it to you this way. I love my mother and she's a very smart woman. I also think she's a moron for believing in god. I do not respect her for her faith. I actually am ashamed that a college educated woman could actually believe the shit that is in the bible.

Religion and automatic respect for it in all of its inane forms is hobbling this country. It hobbles this world. I will not respect you for ludicrous bullshit. Especially if that ludicrous bullshit leads one to murder nonbelievers.

 

[Captain Blackout]

How much trouble am I going to get into with the mods if I keep posting replies to folks? I really want to be a part of this discourse but I do NOT want to break escapist rules...