Aurora Police Defend ‘Stand Down’ Orders; Twice Walked Away From Arresting Man Who Terrorized Apartment Residents

Eacaraxe

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Please try your fellow forum users with respect.
I want realistic results now and not some wild fantasy that isn't going to help us or help anyone now or in the future.
No you want Chamberlainian appeasement in the vain hopes the same people who created the problems will magically make it better of their own volition. At some point you have to figure out reform and change happen when the current regime is forced to implement reform upon existential threat, and this Aaron Sorkin masturbatory fantasy of politicians simply seeing the light and changing when shown facts and figures is useful idiot porn, and has as much relation to actual politics as actual porn has to sex. After the past four months that distinction damn well ought be so clear as to be undeniable to even the most brain-dead liberal, yet here we are all the same dealing with the climate change denial of criminal justice reform.

You want to insult me for being realistic here and wanting to actually save people NOW and make their lives better now and have actual realistic plans to do so that have a measurable direct cause and effect. You just promote a fantasy.
No, I am insulting you for burying your head in the sand and cleaving to fantasies of voluntary reform on the part of police, police unions, unelected bureaucrats, appointed justices, and elected officials up to and including the presidency. You like to claim you want to save anyone at any time, but the rank truth you need to confront is you're not saving a damn person, nor or later, not as long as you're buying into lies and promises of "reform" -- when those same "reforms" are the cause of the current problems we now face.

That's the delusion, here. You're the one harboring it, and no I won't give that delusion, or you, an iota of respect for cleaving to it. Because you're engaging in denialism and apologia.

...no one is going to revolt and eliminate the police and go live under militia/gang /cartel rule, nor do people want to.
You already do, for chrissake. This is the Gilded Age 2.0, period, end of story. The militas, gangs, and cartels are on Wall Street and K Street. If nothing else get that through your thick goddamn skull.

...instead of work to find actual viable workable solutions you can get actual support on?
There are no viable or workable solutions on the table. Because the policies being marketed as "solutions" are the causes of the problems. Cut the Orwellian gaslighting bullshit.

Living under cartel rule sucks btw, I have no idea why you think this is some great solution.
US went through that phase once, when the Mafia ran the political machines and most key operations and businesses in the country. Worked pretty fuckin' well actually, considering that time coincided with the greatest period of uninterrupted economic growth and prosperity in American, if not global, history, which by amazing coincidence also happened to be the greatest period of labor rights and organizational power. You can thank the mob for Pax Americana. Ain't exactly coincidence the cracks started to show and the country started slipping down the drain from the point Bobby Kennedy started bird-dogging the mob.

Mexico's poverty rate is INSANE. There is a reason why most people are actually opposed to that. It is terrible.
Okay, here we go.

Mexican Gini coefficient:

By comparison, US Gini coefficient:

Mexican indexed GDP:

Mexican raw GDP:

Mexican poverty rate:

Most that I've heard peg the midpoint of Calderon's presidency, definitely Nieto's, as the real beginning of cartel rule in Mexico. Funny how after nearly twenty years of promised rapid economic growth and reform post-NAFTA, from Salinas to Calderon under the dubious stewardship of Coca-Cola and Chase Manhattan, the best was a short-term boom from US corporations shorting the Mexican economy, followed by middling improvement if not stagnation. Then the cartels took over, shit started getting done, and key economic performance indicators started trending upwards; funny how that worked out.

Far be it for me to suggest anything similar be done in the US, but I wonder if perhaps the prospect of being unceremoniously and tortuously beheaded in a ditch was a motivator for Mexican bureaucrats to do their goddamned job rather than kowtow to Wall Street gringos for cookies and head-pats.

Where human life is worth nothing for the insanely violent drug cartels.
As opposed to here in the US where it's considered sacrosanct and corporations would never treat human life as disposable numbers with affixed, usurious values that only exist to buffer profit?


 

stroopwafel

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Please do not engage in personal attacks.
No you want Chamberlainian appeasement in the vain hopes the same people who created the problems will magically make it better of their own volition. At some point you have to figure out reform and change happen when the current regime is forced to implement reform upon existential threat, and this Aaron Sorkin masturbatory fantasy of politicians simply seeing the light and changing when shown facts and figures is useful idiot porn, and has as much relation to actual politics as actual porn has to sex. After the past four months that distinction damn well ought be so clear as to be undeniable to even the most brain-dead liberal, yet here we are all the same dealing with the climate change denial of criminal justice reform.


No, I am insulting you for burying your head in the sand and cleaving to fantasies of voluntary reform on the part of police, police unions, unelected bureaucrats, appointed justices, and elected officials up to and including the presidency. You like to claim you want to save anyone at any time, but the rank truth you need to confront is you're not saving a damn person, nor or later, not as long as you're buying into lies and promises of "reform" -- when those same "reforms" are the cause of the current problems we now face.

That's the delusion, here. You're the one harboring it, and no I won't give that delusion, or you, an iota of respect for cleaving to it. Because you're engaging in denialism and apologia.


You already do, for chrissake. This is the Gilded Age 2.0, period, end of story. The militas, gangs, and cartels are on Wall Street and K Street. If nothing else get that through your thick goddamn skull.


There are no viable or workable solutions on the table. Because the policies being marketed as "solutions" are the causes of the problems. Cut the Orwellian gaslighting bullshit.


US went through that phase once, when the Mafia ran the political machines and most key operations and businesses in the country. Worked pretty fuckin' well actually, considering that time coincided with the greatest period of uninterrupted economic growth and prosperity in American, if not global, history, which by amazing coincidence also happened to be the greatest period of labor rights and organizational power. You can thank the mob for Pax Americana. Ain't exactly coincidence the cracks started to show and the country started slipping down the drain from the point Bobby Kennedy started bird-dogging the mob.


Okay, here we go.

Mexican Gini coefficient:

By comparison, US Gini coefficient:

Mexican indexed GDP:

Mexican raw GDP:

Mexican poverty rate:

Most that I've heard peg the midpoint of Calderon's presidency, definitely Nieto's, as the real beginning of cartel rule in Mexico. Funny how after nearly twenty years of promised rapid economic growth and reform post-NAFTA, from Salinas to Calderon under the dubious stewardship of Coca-Cola and Chase Manhattan, the best was a short-term boom from US corporations shorting the Mexican economy, followed by middling improvement if not stagnation. Then the cartels took over, shit started getting done, and key economic performance indicators started trending upwards; funny how that worked out.

Far be it for me to suggest anything similar be done in the US, but I wonder if perhaps the prospect of being unceremoniously and tortuously beheaded in a ditch was a motivator for Mexican bureaucrats to do their goddamned job rather than kowtow to Wall Street gringos for cookies and head-pats.


As opposed to here in the US where it's considered sacrosanct and corporations would never treat human life as disposable numbers with affixed, usurious values that only exist to buffer profit?


To be honest you kinda sound like a schizophrenic who forgot his meds.
 

Thaluikhain

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No you want Chamberlainian appeasement
While there is, of course, many legitimate criticisms to be made of Chamberlain, when the UK (still led by Chamberlain) and France did declare war on Germany, nothing happened (in the West) for a few months, then Germany conquered France and Belgium and chased the British forces off the mainland. You can argue the likelihood of that happening in 1938, or, for that matter, the likelihood of that happening if war was declared in 1939 and if the Germans just got lucky, but still, plunging the world into the greatest war it'd ever seen is not something to be done lightly.

In hindsight, we can say it was the correct decision, but not really that is was such an easy one to make.
 

stroopwafel

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While there is, of course, many legitimate criticisms to be made of Chamberlain, when the UK (still led by Chamberlain) and France did declare war on Germany, nothing happened (in the West) for a few months, then Germany conquered France and Belgium and chased the British forces off the mainland. You can argue the likelihood of that happening in 1938, or, for that matter, the likelihood of that happening if war was declared in 1939 and if the Germans just got lucky, but still, plunging the world into the greatest war it'd ever seen is not something to be done lightly.

In hindsight, we can say it was the correct decision, but not really that is was such an easy one to make.
Not just that but it was also shortly after WW1 where almost an entire generation of young men was slaughtered in the trenches.
 

dreng3

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And I see I'm being talked about behind my back in this thread, yet again. Anyone have any questions about comments and statements I've made in the past they'd like to make now that I'm here?
Your views on police, policing, and the ideal structure of society are completely out there and should be summarily rejected. But it Houseman still wasn't making a fair argument so the attacks on you weren't totally fair.
 

Silvanus

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No, I am insulting you for burying your head in the sand and cleaving to fantasies of voluntary reform on the part of police, police unions, unelected bureaucrats, appointed justices, and elected officials up to and including the presidency. You like to claim you want to save anyone at any time, but the rank truth you need to confront is you're not saving a damn person, nor or later, not as long as you're buying into lies and promises of "reform" -- when those same "reforms" are the cause of the current problems we now face.

That's the delusion, here. You're the one harboring it, and no I won't give that delusion, or you, an iota of respect for cleaving to it. Because you're engaging in denialism and apologia.
OK, if we're going to talk about the success rates of the two approaches, what exactly has been accomplished vis-a-vis criminal justice overhaul in the United States by means of revolution? Bugger all. Because whilst the United States has a huge number of disadvantaged people and people ready and willing to protest and disobey, it has no real will or wish for revolution.

Reform via the democratic processes has a poor success rate. Improvement has come grindingly slowly (if/when it comes at all), and has often slipped backwards, under the oversight of an intransigent and defensive police bureaucracy.

But this is a better success rate than revolution, which has accomplished precisely nothing in this particular arena. We can forgive people for resorting to the only approach that has accomplished anything at all.
 
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Revnak

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OK, if we're going to talk about the success rates of the two approaches, what exactly has been accomplished vis-a-vis criminal justice overhaul in the United States by means of revolution? Bugger all. Because whilst the United States has a huge number of disadvantaged people and people ready and willing to protest and disobey, it has no real will or wish for revolution.

Reform via the democratic processes has a poor success rate. Improvement has come grindingly slowly (if/when it comes at all), and has often slipped backwards, under the oversight of an intransigent and defensive police bureaucracy.

But this is a better success rate than revolution, which has accomplished precisely nothing in this particular arena. We can forgive people for resorting to the only approach that has accomplished anything at all.
Burning down one precinct building has done decades of democratic work in Minneapolis. There are still plans to disband the current police force there I believe. In all honesty, direct action is getting the goods here, and to say otherwise is factually incorrect.
 

Silvanus

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Burning down one precinct building has done decades of democratic work in Minneapolis. There are still plans to disband the current police force there I believe. In all honesty, direct action is getting the goods here, and to say otherwise is factually incorrect.
Direct action =/= revolution.

Those are plans which, if they come to fruition, will be implemented by the City as a result of pressure exerted by direct action. There's quite a few extra steps. That's patently different to overthrowing the ruling class in Minneapolis and appointing our own breakaway gov.
 

Eacaraxe

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Bugger all.
Bugger all other than Shay's Rebellion, Bleeding Kansas, John Brown's attack on Harper's Ferry, the New York draft riots, the Bonus Army, the Coal Wars, and the Black Panthers, you mean. Whether it succeeds or fails, quite contrary to what you would claim the peasants arming themselves and burning shit seems to have a shockingly-high success rate at pressuring politicians to enact policy.

You seem to miss the fact "the ballot or the bullet" worked, because "the bullet" in fact was the alternative and civil rights activists had the means, capability, will, and intent to use them, should the government not accede to allowing the ballot. And here we are fifty years later in a political climate in which some of the most systemically white supremacist policy in post-bellum US history -- gun control -- has been thoroughly captured by the "left". And by stunning coincidence, the government's since reversed its position on "the ballot" and has preemptively chosen to employ "the bullet" for its own sake. Exactly how do you expect this to play out?
 

Revnak

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Direct action =/= revolution.

Those are plans which, if they come to fruition, will be implemented by the City as a result of pressure exerted by direct action. There's quite a few extra steps. That's patently different to overthrowing the ruling class in Minneapolis and appointing our own breakaway gov.
Baby steps. If electoralists get incrementalism, so should we.

But more seriously, the pressure is the point. No Marxist worth a damn would make the argument that organizing is solely valid when it is done for revolutionary efforts. Direct Action in favor of reforms builds solidarity and community. It proves to people that things can be done. It shows that voting in replaceable careerists is not in fact the only option. It makes future organizing easier by bettering the conditions of the people.

Electoralist strategies betray all that. Remember that Minneapolis had repeatedly elected reformist mayors who did absolutely nothing to reform the police. It took fire to change that. Direct Action is the only way to change American policing, electoralism will get us nowhere.
 
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Revnak

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I too would prefer that. I'm sure Eacaraxe and Agema could give us a fine discussion on the topic if Agema trips into this mess.
What founding fathers are you interested in? The cool ones who hated slavery but were kinda monarchists and all smugglers or propagandists or the boring Virginians who the world would be better off without?
 

Specter Von Baren

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What founding fathers are you interested in? The cool ones who hated slavery but were kinda monarchists and all smugglers or propagandists or the boring Virginians who the world would be better off without?
All of them. I have a unique interest in Gouverneur Morris because of how much he seemed to involve himself in the Constitutional Convention yet is not remembered like the others. But I find all of them interesting, especially in all of them interacting together.
 

Revnak

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All of them. I have a unique interest in Gouverneur Morris because of how much he seemed to involve himself in the Constitutional Convention yet is not remembered like the others. But I find all of them interesting, especially in all of them interacting together.
Virginians are universally terrible so I can’t agree with you.
 

Revnak

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It's not a matter of liking someone ya know. Even brutal warlords or gruesome killers can be fascinating to learn about despite finding them repugnant.
Nonono, they’re terribly boring too. Jefferson was just bad at everything except being a lawyer/politician and he found that to be morally repugnant. He was probably the gem of the lot.
 

Eacaraxe

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What founding fathers are you interested in? The cool ones who hated slavery but were kinda monarchists and all smugglers or propagandists or the boring Virginians who the world would be better off without?
Pretty much this, the "founders" were two camps.

1. The jagholes who started the French and Indian War and profited off it, got their land grants revoked in the Proclamation of 1763, and were buttmad they were expected to pay for the war.

2. Smugglers, propagandists, and other scofflaws and rogues who made a shitload of money off the French and Indian War and subsequent taxation to pay for the war, and were buttmad the Brits wised up to their grift.

I mean God forbid anyone west of the Atlantic look too close at the fine print and notice the Boston Tea Party, for example, was a protest over a tax cut.