Aurora Police Defend ‘Stand Down’ Orders; Twice Walked Away From Arresting Man Who Terrorized Apartment Residents

Houseman

Elite Member
Legacy
Apr 4, 2020
1,636
414
88


This is what some of you wanted with police reform, right? Convicted felon free to terrorize an apartment complex for two days, including
- exposing himself to kids
- throwing a rock through a window
- brandishing a golf club
- vandalizing a vehicle with spray paint

“He destroyed everything I had that was breakable. They tased him then they left when they should have arrested him. There’s a man in our house trying to do whatever damage he can do with a golf club and he’s not stable and you just leave? I’m speechless, I’m speechless. I don’t know what to say,” said Raffa.

At least the guy wasn't shot and killed, or otherwise "brutalized", right? At least his life and well-being matters more than the property and well-being of neighbors, right?
This is a good thing, right?
 
Last edited:

Silvanus

Elite Member
Legacy
Apr 26, 2020
678
365
68
Country
United Kingdom
This is what some of you wanted with police reform, right? Convicted felon free to terrorize an apartment complex for two days

[...]

This is a good thing, right?
See, in other threads you often claim you're just after genuine discussion in good faith, and then you post stuff like this that makes it so blindingly obvious that isn't the case.
 

Houseman

Elite Member
Legacy
Apr 4, 2020
1,636
414
88
See, in other threads you often claim you're just after genuine discussion in good faith, and then you post stuff like this that makes it so blindingly obvious that isn't the case.
I fully expect some people to say "Yes. This is a good thing. This is how it should have been handled".
 
  • Like
Reactions: Specter Von Baren

Xprimentyl

Made you look...
Legacy
Apr 10, 2020
474
364
68
Plano, TX
Country
United States
Gender
Male
This is what some of you wanted with police reform, right? Convicted felon free to terrorize an apartment complex for two days, including

...

At least the guy wasn't shot and killed, or otherwise "brutalized", right? At least his life and well-being matters more than the property and well-being of neighbors, right?
This is a good thing, right?
Police reform need not entail neutering them and their ability to uphold and enforce the law; there are both appropriate and inappropriate ways to to do those things. If these cops "stood down" from a clear threat and did nothing, they were wrong. Had they showed up guns blazing in response to vandalism and indecent exposure that too would have been wrong. There's a genuine discussion to be had here, but if you insist on being hyperbolic and assuming anyone with a reasonable opinion other than yours is de facto the polar opposite of yours, well...

"Oh, you people get outraged when an unarmed person is killed by the cops; you want reform, therefore you clearly want anarchy" is essentially what his gotcha opinionism equates to, in tone at least.
 

Specter Von Baren

Annoying Green Gadfly
Legacy
May 4, 2020
1,403
434
88
I don't know, send help!
Country
USA
Gender
Cuttlefish
Police reform need not entail neutering them and their ability to uphold and enforce the law; there are both appropriate and inappropriate ways to to do those things. If these cops "stood down" from a clear threat and did nothing, they were wrong. Had they showed up guns blazing in response to vandalism and indecent exposure that too would have been wrong. There's a genuine discussion to be had here, but if you insist on being hyperbolic and assuming anyone with a reasonable opinion other than yours is de facto the polar opposite of yours, well...


"Oh, you people get outraged when an unarmed person is killed by the cops; you want reform, therefore you clearly want anarchy" is essentially what his gotcha opinionism equates to, in tone at least.
But.... This is exactly what was asked for. Everyone was saying the use of force is bad and this is a case of no force being used. The bad faith is not on Houseman but anyone that now flip flops on their position now that it is no longer theoretical.
 

Silvanus

Elite Member
Legacy
Apr 26, 2020
678
365
68
Country
United Kingdom
The sole purpose of the thread is to rile people up, by presenting the most childishly transparent strawman possible and then acting like there's a genuine question there. That's bad faith. And it's worth remembering next time Houseman acts as if he's only asking questions and people won't engage. People shouldn't mistake it for anything but a ploy.

But.... This is exactly what was asked for. Everyone was saying the use of force is bad and this is a case of no force being used.
This is patently false. Nobody has argued that people committing crimes simply shouldn't ever be stopped/arrested. It's a ludicrous strawman, and anybody who's actually read the content of the posts in the various threads about police brutality is able to see that this was never said.

The idea is either a tiresome ploy to rile people up (as in the OP), or people are just filling in the blanks with their own extreme assumptions about their political opponents.
 

happyninja42

Elite Member
Legacy
May 7, 2020
1,427
621
118
The sole purpose of the thread is to rile people up, by presenting the most childishly transparent strawman possible and then acting like there's a genuine question there. That's bad faith. And it's worth remembering next time Houseman acts as if he's only asking questions and people won't engage. People shouldn't mistake it for anything but a ploy.



This is patently false. Nobody has argued that people committing crimes simply shouldn't ever be stopped/arrested. It's a ludicrous strawman, and anybody who's actually read the content of the posts in the various threads about police brutality is able to see that this was never said.

The idea is either a tiresome ploy to rile people up (as in the OP), or people are just filling in the blanks with their own extreme assumptions about their political opponents.
Yeah it is funny how "we'd like cops to not run around in freaking unmarked combat armor and humvees that are insanely unnecessary for the job they are doing, and we'd like for them to not all behave like they are in a freaking dirty harry film, where the proper response is shoot first and fuck questions later." translates to "ok well you clearly just don't want ANY police protection and want pure chaos and anarchy."
 

Xprimentyl

Made you look...
Legacy
Apr 10, 2020
474
364
68
Plano, TX
Country
United States
Gender
Male
But.... This is exactly what was asked for. Everyone was saying the use of force is bad and this is a case of no force being used. The bad faith is not on Houseman but anyone that now flip flops on their position now that it is no longer theoretical.
The use of EXCESSIVE force is what "everyone was saying" is bad; the omission of that critical word is what has allowed virtue-signaling police advocates to construct their straw men and ensured these discussions have gone nowhere on countless occasions. Literally no one [in here] has said they wanted "no/powerless police," and yet we've been presented with this "evidence" of more bad police doing their jobs poorly/negligently as an "A-HA!! See what happens when you police reform advocates get your way???" "Our way" is accountability, both when the cops take action or inaction. The cops in the OP's article should have arrested that guy, and George Floyd, already in custody, should not have had his neck knelt on for nearly 9 minutes which killed him; there's a rational world in which both of those are true statements; sadly, it's apparently not the one we live in.
 
Last edited:

Avnger

Trash Goblin
Legacy
Apr 10, 2020
215
180
48
Country
United States
I fully expect some people to say "Yes. This is a good thing. This is how it should have been handled".
That's probably because you have completely failed to actually read and understand other people's posts instead of injecting what you want to see.
 
  • Like
Reactions: MrCalavera

Specter Von Baren

Annoying Green Gadfly
Legacy
May 4, 2020
1,403
434
88
I don't know, send help!
Country
USA
Gender
Cuttlefish
The sole purpose of the thread is to rile people up, by presenting the most childishly transparent strawman possible and then acting like there's a genuine question there. That's bad faith. And it's worth remembering next time Houseman acts as if he's only asking questions and people won't engage. People shouldn't mistake it for anything but a ploy.
Explain it to me then. How are the incidents not equivalent?

This is patently false. Nobody has argued that people committing crimes simply shouldn't ever be stopped/arrested.
Then how can they be stopped and arrested if force is off the table? This is an example of the police not resorting to force. Why do you find this example inaccurate?

The use of EXCESSIVE force is what "everyone was saying"
What is considered excessive?
 

Xprimentyl

Made you look...
Legacy
Apr 10, 2020
474
364
68
Plano, TX
Country
United States
Gender
Male
What is considered excessive?
Force above and beyond what is merited to deescalate a given situation. But what? Are you trying to imply the absurdity of a single, objective definition of "excessive" that covers any and all police interactions and, by extension, the futility of attempting meaningful reform? Because I like the definition I supplied; I think it's flexible enough to give level-headed cops all the leverage they need to do their jobs the right way.
 
  • Like
Reactions: MrCalavera

dreng3

Elite Member
Apr 24, 2020
234
136
48
Country
Denmark
But.... This is exactly what was asked for. Everyone was saying the use of force is bad and this is a case of no force being used. The bad faith is not on Houseman but anyone that now flip flops on their position now that it is no longer theoretical.
It is, infact, possible to arrest and detain people without having to use excessive force. What most of us want from police reform is for police to be held to a reasonable standard when it comes to use of force and for police to be trained in deescalation tactics. Some also want a closer look at whether or not there is a racial bias in policing. Furthermore a look at some policing powers that seem unjustified or excessively used would also be good, take no-knock raids and civil asset forfeiture.

What is considered excessive?
Shooting him once it was established that he wasn't an active threat? Kneeling on his back for ten minutes? Tasing him once he is handcuffed?
All of those are examples of excessive force. The police in this case responded with an adequate amount of force, however it should have been followed by an arrest and detainment until a prosecutor or judge could make a decision as to whether or not he was guilty of crimes that should result in further detainment in a prison.
 

Specter Von Baren

Annoying Green Gadfly
Legacy
May 4, 2020
1,403
434
88
I don't know, send help!
Country
USA
Gender
Cuttlefish
It is, infact, possible to arrest and detain people without having to use excessive force. What most of us want from police reform is for police to be held to a reasonable standard when it comes to use of force and for police to be trained in deescalation tactics. Some also want a closer look at whether or not there is a racial bias in policing. Furthermore a look at some policing powers that seem unjustified or excessively used would also be good, take no-knock raids and civil asset forfeiture.


Shooting him once it was established that he wasn't an active threat? Kneeling on his back for ten minutes? Tasing him once he is handcuffed?
All of those are examples of excessive force. The police in this case responded with an adequate amount of force, however it should have been followed by an arrest and detainment until a prosecutor or judge could make a decision as to whether or not he was guilty of crimes that should result in further detainment in a prison.
I'm not talking about that, I'm talking about the Tulsa shooting.

Force above and beyond what is merited to deescalate a given situation.
Do you consider the force used in the Tulsa videos to be excessive? Would you say that is an accurate example of excessive force?
 

Xprimentyl

Made you look...
Legacy
Apr 10, 2020
474
364
68
Plano, TX
Country
United States
Gender
Male
Do you consider the force used in the Tulsa videos to be excessive? Would you say that is an accurate example of excessive force?
Assuming you're talking about the two cops shot by a pedestrian, yes, that was excessive on the shooter's part for a multitude of reasons, the foremost being attempted and successful murder; those cops didn't deserve that. The existence of bad cops and the desire for police reform that weeds them out and properly trains and equips good cops to do their job the right way does not exonerate criminals or criminal activity. In fact, had those officers been in any position to return fire and kill that man, that would have been well within their right and not excessive at all. See? It's possible to be anti-bad cop and anti-criminal at the same time; most rational people are.
 

Houseman

Elite Member
Legacy
Apr 4, 2020
1,636
414
88
If these cops "stood down" from a clear threat and did nothing, they were wrong.
The use of EXCESSIVE force is what "everyone was saying" is bad
It is, infact, possible to arrest and detain people without having to use excessive force.
Okay, so "zero force" is going too far, and excessive force, as the name implies, is also going too far.
Where's the right balance? I don't think there's ever going to be one.

The moment force is used, it can quickly go from a struggle to someone ending up dead. Either the suspect pulls out a concealed weapon or goes for an officer's gun, and someone gets pumped full of holes.

That guy reached in his car? Pumped full of holes.
A guy stole an officer's taser and fired it a them? Pumped full of holes.
Officers try to talk a guy out of his car for seven minutes, before escalating to taser and pepper spray? Suspect pulled out a gun and pumped the officers full of holes.

People riot about police brutality even when the officers were doing everything right. I'm not sure there's anything they can do that would be considered a winning move, hence this thread.
 
Last edited:

Xprimentyl

Made you look...
Legacy
Apr 10, 2020
474
364
68
Plano, TX
Country
United States
Gender
Male
Except these people:
So this thread is solely in response to them and not the larger group that has discussed reasonable police reform for dozens upon dozens of pages across as many threads? Fine, you got me on a technicality: SOME people have said "no/powerless police." Your OP would have served perfectly in direct response to those posters and didn't necessarily merit its own thread I'm sure you were aware would garner responses of the less radical police reformer advocates, y'know, MOST of us?
 

Houseman

Elite Member
Legacy
Apr 4, 2020
1,636
414
88
I'm sure you were aware would garner responses of the less radical police reformer advocates, y'know, MOST of us?
Of course. I don't see this as a bad thing. Everyone should be free to chime in on whether or not:
- they think the officers acted correctly or incorrectly
- whether or not this is what certain people want out of the police when they protest or say "reform" or "defund" or "abolish"
- whether or not the outcome of such desires are good or bad.