Bad guys you quickly/later realized weren't actually evil.
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Since no one has mentioned it already, I guess I'll throw the first stone: Illidan
Yes, Illidan always cared for power, he always wanted to be stronger and he wasn't above working demons, what's supposed to be his arch-nemesis (both as a demon hunter and as a Night Elf), to get it. However, he did truly want to help his people, he would let Sargeras remove his eyes and replace them with orbs of fire to get the power to save them. He's definitely in the gray area when it comes to morality but he ultimately wishes the best for his own people. That is, naturally, until they choose that he is either supposed to be locked and caged in a dark hole or dead. The Frozen Throne intro really says it all, he is called betrayer but he was in fact betrayed by his own people. And from there, he just slowly descended into madness until he was put out of his misery.
And since we're on the topic, I might as well just add Kael'thas. He was good, he did everything in his power to help a superior who absolutely hated him and his kin, and when that proved impossible and he had to accept other help to make sure he could establish safety for the very people who hated him, he was shunned and caged. He was a hero, but he was not treated as such. Then Illidan showed him a way, he gave him the ability to secure a future for his people, he was their savior. Again, that was ended when he received his almost-mortal wound by Arthas and turned to insanity, and Kael'thas took the exact same path as his supposed master and started making deals with demons in order to get more power.
TL;DR Both Illidan and Kael'thas were good guys who were turned to evil by the people they were trying to protect.
Yes, Illidan always cared for power, he always wanted to be stronger and he wasn't above working demons, what's supposed to be his arch-nemesis (both as a demon hunter and as a Night Elf), to get it. However, he did truly want to help his people, he would let Sargeras remove his eyes and replace them with orbs of fire to get the power to save them. He's definitely in the gray area when it comes to morality but he ultimately wishes the best for his own people. That is, naturally, until they choose that he is either supposed to be locked and caged in a dark hole or dead. The Frozen Throne intro really says it all, he is called betrayer but he was in fact betrayed by his own people. And from there, he just slowly descended into madness until he was put out of his misery.
And since we're on the topic, I might as well just add Kael'thas. He was good, he did everything in his power to help a superior who absolutely hated him and his kin, and when that proved impossible and he had to accept other help to make sure he could establish safety for the very people who hated him, he was shunned and caged. He was a hero, but he was not treated as such. Then Illidan showed him a way, he gave him the ability to secure a future for his people, he was their savior. Again, that was ended when he received his almost-mortal wound by Arthas and turned to insanity, and Kael'thas took the exact same path as his supposed master and started making deals with demons in order to get more power.
TL;DR Both Illidan and Kael'thas were good guys who were turned to evil by the people they were trying to protect.
I'm just going to run through a mental list of all the games/franchises I own and decide if they really are evil or not.
Crash Bandicoot - Yep, Cortex is evil. But he's just a lackey for Uka Uka anyway, who is also evil.
Spyro the Dragon (original series) - Yep, every boss evil, save for possibly Gnasty Gnorc, who is simply trying to deal with the extreme racism shown to him and his entire species by the dragons. Yes, in the first Spyro game, you play a racist who wants to enact a 'Final Solution' against an entire species of creatures that are forced to live in a (ghetto) Wasteland.
Warhammer 40K Fire Warrior - Well, we're dealing with Chaos as the bad guys here, so yes, evil. The Imperial Guard and Space Marines aren't included here because they have a (admittedly fragile) truce with the Tau, and this only breaks (and is subsequently fixed) because of the Chaos presence.
Final Fantasy XII - Arguably, no, the villain isn't evil. Yes, he is an imperialistic douche, but the entire plan (and Venat's plan too) revolved around freeing humanity, viera, moogles, bangaa, etc. from the rule of a worse race of god-like creatures that were using these races throughout history for their own purposes. The expansion of the Arcadian Empire was just a side effect, albeit one that was pretty bad, though even then the Arcadian citizens seemed perfectly happy witht heir rule, and Vayne did at least make an effort to get his new subjects to like him, and tried to earn their respect...
Assassin's Creed - Depends on your worldview. I do side with the Assassins here, but the Templars do genuinely believe they're doing what's best for humanity as well, even if they are trying to get power themselves. I can't really see the Templars as evil, simply greedy and misguided, but also genuinely interested in the wellbeing of humanity, even if that wellbeing would be given through lies and deceit.
Alan Wake - It's the Dark Presence. And Mr Scratch. Yep, 100% pure evil. No questions.
Bioshock - Well, again, this depends on your worldview. Nobody, I'd say, is evil as such. Everyone simply has their own conflicting views, and instead of talking about them like reasonable people, they decide to start a civil war. This applies to Bioshock 2 as well, and the effect of said war on every character involved. Those who aren't involved are simply mentally disturbed, not evil, and the Splicers are all simply the survivng addicts of a pretty bad drug culture. No evil here, just political extremism and lack of self control.
Final Fantasy XIII - We can look at it two ways here. On the one hand, all the Fal'Cie want is to find a way of bringing back their own goddess, which any religious person would see as admirable. On the other hand, the plan does involve the deaths of millions of humans, the near extinction of the species, and the manipulation of humanity over hundreds if not thousands of years. I wouldn't really consider the Fal'Cie to be evil, as such, but they certainly push the boundaries.
Fallout 3 - The main villains here are the Enclave. I don't see them as being evil, again, it's simply political extremism on their part. They reckon the country has gone to pot and needs a strong uniting force to return it to what it once was, which again is rather admirable. They simply aren't the best way of doing so, and are too free and easy with using questionable methods and brute force to do so, and are a bit obsessed with gathering power for themselves. Not evil, just misguided extremists. As for slavers, raiders, and so on, they're just greedy murderous bastards, so if you consider real-life killers or slavers or pirates to be evil, then yes, they are in F3 too.
Gears of War - The entire series pretty much deals with this question as a whole, doesn't it? I'd argue the Locust, and later the Lambent, aren't evil. They're simply dealing with what they see as a threat to their survival and existence, i.e. humanity. The fact that humanity view these enemies in much the same way is the crux of the matter, and we are playing as humans so naturally we'll see things better from humanity's point of view. If the game had been released where you play as Locust, killing humans, we'd see the matter a lot differently. On that note, isn't there a Gears 3 DLC pack where you play a campaign as General RAAM? Or hasn't it been released yet?
Halo - Again, entire series here (including Halo Wars and Reach - shut up, I liked them both, and ODST, okay?), including the expanded universe (books, comics, anime, etc.). No, the Coveant aren't evil. Each individual race has it's own motives and reasons for being part of the Covenant, which would take a lot of time to tell (and so I won't talk about them here). Suffice to say, the closest to evil you'll get with them is the Prophets, and even they aren't evil. The race as a whole are simply decadent, hedonistic and lazy, but otherwise no harm and perfectly decent creatures. The Hierarchs (the three leaders) are pretty much just power hungry, with Truth being the most manipulative and smartest of the three, and the entire Covenant War is his fault anyway after he manipulated the new Brute Chieftan Tartarus to attack Harvest 27 years before the games - when the former Brute leader, Maccabus, was actually pushing for peaceful first contact and getting on well with these 'humans'. As for the Flood, they aren't evil either - they're simply genetically created by the Precursors as a weapon, and the Gravemind is simply trying to propogate the species - perfectly natural. Forerunners aren't evil, as the books show - yes, they fought a war with humanity, but not without justification, and on the whole were a very humanlike species anyway. Finally, the Precursors haven't been given enough background yet to make such a judgement (not until we see the rest of the Forerunner Trilogy, and Halo 4, yet...).
Tom Clancy's H.A.W.X. - Yes, I have this game. Yes, I enjoy it. No, I can't make a judgement, since I haven't yet completed it, and thus don't know enough about the main villain or villains yet.
Project Gotham Racing 4 - It's a racing game. There are no villains. Fool.
[small]For the record, I also have the two main Kingdom Hearts games, but won't be judging those because quite frankly I've not got enough information. I haven't played any of the other games in the series yet save Chain of Memories, which I've never gotten very far in anyway. And these are simply the games I have for PS2 and Xbox 360. I do have more games, on PC and Nintendo DS, but I have too many to remember by heart, so I won't be adding any more to this here list. Sorry guys
.[/small]
Crash Bandicoot - Yep, Cortex is evil. But he's just a lackey for Uka Uka anyway, who is also evil.
Spyro the Dragon (original series) - Yep, every boss evil, save for possibly Gnasty Gnorc, who is simply trying to deal with the extreme racism shown to him and his entire species by the dragons. Yes, in the first Spyro game, you play a racist who wants to enact a 'Final Solution' against an entire species of creatures that are forced to live in a (ghetto) Wasteland.
Warhammer 40K Fire Warrior - Well, we're dealing with Chaos as the bad guys here, so yes, evil. The Imperial Guard and Space Marines aren't included here because they have a (admittedly fragile) truce with the Tau, and this only breaks (and is subsequently fixed) because of the Chaos presence.
Final Fantasy XII - Arguably, no, the villain isn't evil. Yes, he is an imperialistic douche, but the entire plan (and Venat's plan too) revolved around freeing humanity, viera, moogles, bangaa, etc. from the rule of a worse race of god-like creatures that were using these races throughout history for their own purposes. The expansion of the Arcadian Empire was just a side effect, albeit one that was pretty bad, though even then the Arcadian citizens seemed perfectly happy witht heir rule, and Vayne did at least make an effort to get his new subjects to like him, and tried to earn their respect...
Assassin's Creed - Depends on your worldview. I do side with the Assassins here, but the Templars do genuinely believe they're doing what's best for humanity as well, even if they are trying to get power themselves. I can't really see the Templars as evil, simply greedy and misguided, but also genuinely interested in the wellbeing of humanity, even if that wellbeing would be given through lies and deceit.
Alan Wake - It's the Dark Presence. And Mr Scratch. Yep, 100% pure evil. No questions.
Bioshock - Well, again, this depends on your worldview. Nobody, I'd say, is evil as such. Everyone simply has their own conflicting views, and instead of talking about them like reasonable people, they decide to start a civil war. This applies to Bioshock 2 as well, and the effect of said war on every character involved. Those who aren't involved are simply mentally disturbed, not evil, and the Splicers are all simply the survivng addicts of a pretty bad drug culture. No evil here, just political extremism and lack of self control.
Final Fantasy XIII - We can look at it two ways here. On the one hand, all the Fal'Cie want is to find a way of bringing back their own goddess, which any religious person would see as admirable. On the other hand, the plan does involve the deaths of millions of humans, the near extinction of the species, and the manipulation of humanity over hundreds if not thousands of years. I wouldn't really consider the Fal'Cie to be evil, as such, but they certainly push the boundaries.
Fallout 3 - The main villains here are the Enclave. I don't see them as being evil, again, it's simply political extremism on their part. They reckon the country has gone to pot and needs a strong uniting force to return it to what it once was, which again is rather admirable. They simply aren't the best way of doing so, and are too free and easy with using questionable methods and brute force to do so, and are a bit obsessed with gathering power for themselves. Not evil, just misguided extremists. As for slavers, raiders, and so on, they're just greedy murderous bastards, so if you consider real-life killers or slavers or pirates to be evil, then yes, they are in F3 too.
Gears of War - The entire series pretty much deals with this question as a whole, doesn't it? I'd argue the Locust, and later the Lambent, aren't evil. They're simply dealing with what they see as a threat to their survival and existence, i.e. humanity. The fact that humanity view these enemies in much the same way is the crux of the matter, and we are playing as humans so naturally we'll see things better from humanity's point of view. If the game had been released where you play as Locust, killing humans, we'd see the matter a lot differently. On that note, isn't there a Gears 3 DLC pack where you play a campaign as General RAAM? Or hasn't it been released yet?
Halo - Again, entire series here (including Halo Wars and Reach - shut up, I liked them both, and ODST, okay?), including the expanded universe (books, comics, anime, etc.). No, the Coveant aren't evil. Each individual race has it's own motives and reasons for being part of the Covenant, which would take a lot of time to tell (and so I won't talk about them here). Suffice to say, the closest to evil you'll get with them is the Prophets, and even they aren't evil. The race as a whole are simply decadent, hedonistic and lazy, but otherwise no harm and perfectly decent creatures. The Hierarchs (the three leaders) are pretty much just power hungry, with Truth being the most manipulative and smartest of the three, and the entire Covenant War is his fault anyway after he manipulated the new Brute Chieftan Tartarus to attack Harvest 27 years before the games - when the former Brute leader, Maccabus, was actually pushing for peaceful first contact and getting on well with these 'humans'. As for the Flood, they aren't evil either - they're simply genetically created by the Precursors as a weapon, and the Gravemind is simply trying to propogate the species - perfectly natural. Forerunners aren't evil, as the books show - yes, they fought a war with humanity, but not without justification, and on the whole were a very humanlike species anyway. Finally, the Precursors haven't been given enough background yet to make such a judgement (not until we see the rest of the Forerunner Trilogy, and Halo 4, yet...).
Tom Clancy's H.A.W.X. - Yes, I have this game. Yes, I enjoy it. No, I can't make a judgement, since I haven't yet completed it, and thus don't know enough about the main villain or villains yet.
Project Gotham Racing 4 - It's a racing game. There are no villains. Fool.
[small]For the record, I also have the two main Kingdom Hearts games, but won't be judging those because quite frankly I've not got enough information. I haven't played any of the other games in the series yet save Chain of Memories, which I've never gotten very far in anyway. And these are simply the games I have for PS2 and Xbox 360. I do have more games, on PC and Nintendo DS, but I have too many to remember by heart, so I won't be adding any more to this here list. Sorry guys
.[/small]
The Helghan in the Killzone franchise.
Not necessarily the 'good' guys but compared to the mess that was the I.S.A they were good enough for me.
Not necessarily the 'good' guys but compared to the mess that was the I.S.A they were good enough for me.
I feel the ideal bad guy isn't evil for the sake of evil. One of my favorite villains is Kain from the Legacy of Kain series, more specifically in the Soul Reaver games.
Sorry but Snape is evil. If Harry had not been the son of a woman that Snape had some sort of psychotic obsession over you think he would have lifted a finger to help him? I doubt it. Remember during Voldermorts first rise he willingly joined the death eaters and according to Rowling if Lily hadn't been killed by Voldemort Snape would have been a loyal Death eater to the end.Urgh76 said:
Can't really call him a game character, but he was in a few.
Always.
-Storm cloaks are racist, but it's obvious they don't want to kick everyone out. Hell I was a wood elf and made my way up the ranks in their military, if they were so racist they wouldn't even let me join.nuba km said:
-Ulfric killed the king in consensual duel, it's like an ancient battle right the Nords practiced.
-The empire is clearly at the whim of the High elves , if they weren't they wouldn't have banned the worship of Talos which is their most popular god.
Basically in my eyes the empire is already as good as dead, if they willing to ban the worship of their most popular god then it shows how far they've gone. Making Skyrim independent would both allow the nords to worship Talos again and create another barrier to high elev domination.They could also work with the empire to fight the elves.
1. They can't lock contend of the game out to a player just because he isn't playing a certain race.thedo12 said:
2. fair enough
3. Talos wasn't a god he was a man who drove the NATIVE elves of skyrim underground in the name of the nords, nearly committing genocide, the native elves were then forced into slavery and blinded by the dwemer turning them into the falmer and now talos is worshiped like a god for it, even though he was just a man.
Basically the empire is trying to stop the nords worshiping a man who nearly committed genocide as it is incredibly offensive to any elf. The only problem being is that they have to work with a group of elitist to accomplish this, which they don't like.
Stormcloaks are still merely asserting their right to self determination for Skyrim. It's already been mentioned that how Ulfric took the throne was entirely within the law of Skyrim. As the legitimate ruler of the land he has every right to break away from the Empire, if he feels it is no longer in the interest of Skyrim.pffh said:
I certainly didn't agree with everything the Stormcloaks stood for, but the Empire was trying to impose its will on a foreign land, even if that was at the behest of the Altmer.
Read: Iraq 2003 - America>Britain. I didn't support my government because on balance it was just acting at the behest of Bush. I certainly didn't support Saddam Hussein either, but that didn't make it right to invade.
Teyrn Loghain (Dragon Age: Origins), Saren (Mass Effect) and Queen Myrrah (Gears of War 3) did what they did because they think it was best for their followers. It turns out the character you play as got in the way of their plans. Loghain was unaware, Saren was brainwashed, Myrrah had no choice.
And the Covenant, most of them at least. The Prophets told the other Covenant races that killing the humans and activating the halo rings would trigger their ascension into some place resembling Heaven. The other Covenant races were lied to so it wasn't exactly their fault.
Bonus:
The case is completely different for the Agency in Crackdown. You think you're doing the right thing, taking out all these gangs for the the Agency and make the citizens safe. It turns out the Agency were the bad guys after all and now the citizens have their at most trust with them. I don't understand the ending completely, but the narrator guy did an evil laugh at the end so that's enough for me to be convinced he's evil.
And the Covenant, most of them at least. The Prophets told the other Covenant races that killing the humans and activating the halo rings would trigger their ascension into some place resembling Heaven. The other Covenant races were lied to so it wasn't exactly their fault.
Bonus:
The case is completely different for the Agency in Crackdown. You think you're doing the right thing, taking out all these gangs for the the Agency and make the citizens safe. It turns out the Agency were the bad guys after all and now the citizens have their at most trust with them. I don't understand the ending completely, but the narrator guy did an evil laugh at the end so that's enough for me to be convinced he's evil.
Yeah, but I'm pretty sure he was still evil. Remember his monologue about how if he couldn't have the kingdom, nobody could, and he'd destroy it before he let it be ruled by somebody else? Although, I suppose it could have been an illusion on the part of Teresa to get you to go through with the revolution--I never trusted her since the ending of Fable 2 (she's way too similar to Kreia from KotOR 2 not to keep a close eye on her). Logan didn't seem half as insane when the revolution actually happened.x EvilErmine x said:
The Agency had actually funded/created all the organizations you were destroying to make the public think they needed the Agency's absolute despotic control. So yes, Agency was the badguy all along. The people your killing are evil too - if anything, the PLAYER is the well intentioned villain, being the unknowing executioner for a despotic law enforcement organizationAerosteam 1908 said:
I am disappointed by the lack of Golbez from FFIV in this topic. The guy basically kills one of your first mages, always ruins your shit during the game, mind controls your best friend, and then you find out that the guy was basically on your side, fighting a greater evil on the moon.
Well there is Magus from Chrono Trigger. Ya think he's the biggest issue pertaining to Lavos, but he's really just out to defeat Lavos in his own way. More of an anti-hero than a villain afterwards.
Very much this. The Witcher series has always dealt with morally grey awreas, and the bad guys of the games exemplifies the underlying theme that the books have stated from the beginning. Not everything that looks 'evil' really is, and the whole idea of choosing the 'lesser evil'. Other than Emperor Emhyr, there are very few transparently evil characters in the series.BathorysGraveland said:
Um...while he wasn't evil per say, he wasn't on your side for a good 3 quarters of the game. He himself was mind controlled and being used as a tool by Zemus...so all that killing and mind control Golbez was doing wasn't really him doing it for the greater good.Thatrocketeer said:
Illadin is just a selfish little junkie, was always about what he wanted... kael was the selfless patriotic leader who sacrificed and whatnot
I think it was pretty well established that Kain isn't evil...well, you know what I mean - he wasn't the bad guy, at any rate.Clive Howlitzer said:
OT: The heroes from Dungeon Keeper. On one hand they want to destroy everything you've worked so hard for, but on the other they probably just don't want to be enslaved, tortured and killed (not exactly in that order, either) which is a weird but possibly valid point of view.