Banned Escapists To Be Granted Amnesty On New Forums.

[Saelune]

So the thing with moderation, at least for me, is that as long as things stay civil and people aren't making personal attacks, or threats, or you know, saying very clearly obvious things that you shouldn't say, I leave it alone.

I think civil discourse has really taken a hit from social media and people not being able to discuss different ideas without getting dogpiled or attacked. That's where Kyle and I very much disagreed with one another, because he wanted to literally "teach" people to think the right way, which is always going to take you down a path of people thinking "you're better than them and they're wrong because I'm always right".

That's not how you moderate a discussion, and if you're going to have a forum, people need to be able to speak their mind. But it's a private forum, and we make the rules, so technically, yes. If I don't like something you say I can sure as hell ban you for whatever reason I want and there's nothing you're going to do about it, but if I do that then what's the point of having a forum unless you just want it to be an echo chamber.

I don't step in until things either are taken too far, or people make a personal threat, or insult against someone because that shows me they're incapable of having a civil discussion and that's not the kind of people I want in this community. I'll still treat it on a case by case basis, but yea, the average age of someone reading The Escapist is like 25-34, so if by that point you can't discuss something without making an ass of yourself, then you're probably not gonna fit in our community.

With all that said, people do seem to forget forums are private and by that nature, free speech isn't a thing on these things. It's a privilege to speak on a private forum, or any private setting. Some moderators take that too far to do exactly what I said, remove anyone they disagree with, but if you want a true discussion forum with people from all different backgrounds and ideals, then you're probably not going to run a forum that way.

At this point in this forum's life history, I think it's safe to say that every possible approach to moderation has been tried, by different consecutive administrations, with varying degrees of success (or sometimes no success at all).

As you say, we've had the jackbooted and ironfisted approach with the likes of Kyle and other predecessors. That didn't work for the reasons you mentioned; it becomes too oppressive, the userbase is trimmed ruthlessly, and it leads to an echo chamber.

But we've also had your approach as well. The "please be civil" / "no personal attacks" / "don't be a jerk" approach, where everything else is fair game.
The problem with this - and we've seen this manifest itself time and time again - is that certain users have developed ways of getting around this. In particular, through the use of extreme and excessive passive-aggressiveness.

The comment has been made, by many a user, that the passive-aggressiveness that permeates here, is actually more annoying and more off-putting than just letting everyone jump straight to full-blown insults. And with the way the rules are worded, and the way the passive-aggressiveness is usually crafted, it often flies under the radar most of the time.

I think your approach to moderation is one of the better ones, but please keep in mind the pitfalls that have befallen previous site admins. The passive-aggression on this forum often seems to take them by surprise.

I've seen that plenty too. It's pretty easy to tell when someone isn't engaging in good faith, and that will be taken into account when moderating. Some of it folks are just going to have to deal with obviously if they're not overstepping our rules.

Either way, I've had a lot of success with the YouTube community, of all places, in cultivating a more positive community just by being involved in discussions and setting the tone of our community threads there. Even on the website I think we've mostly accomplished this by kicking out the bad actors swiftly and giving room for reasonable people to share their voice.

Hell, the conversation on the first Slightly Civil War was actually really clean and productive which was a nice big surprise this week. Long as we set the right tone, I think we'll be fine.

I'd prefer we don't become anything like ResetEra haha.

Just remember, civility is not about being polite to Nazi ideology, it is about not condoning Nazi ideology.

And do not be a school principal about it either. Punish the bullies, rather than waiting for the bullied to fight back then punishing them for standing up for themselves.

 

[gsilver]

I'm not deeply into this board, so while I can't comment too much on some of the more infamous cases, I have occasionally clicked on users who got banned, and some of the posts didn't even seem that bad to me. Worth a delete and a warning via PM? Probably, but there seemed to be a lot of banned users around here, way more than other forums.

 

[Johnny Novgorod]

I'm not deeply into this board, so while I can't comment too much on some of the more infamous cases, I have occasionally clicked on users who got banned, and some of the posts didn't even seem that bad to me. Worth a delete and a warning via PM? Probably, but there seemed to be a lot of banned users around here, way more than other forums.

Most times it is "just" a warning. But those stack, and 8 equals a ban.

 

[Trunkage]

I'm not deeply into this board, so while I can't comment too much on some of the more infamous cases, I have occasionally clicked on users who got banned, and some of the posts didn't even seem that bad to me. Worth a delete and a warning via PM? Probably, but there seemed to be a lot of banned users around here, way more than other forums.

There was a time here when minor infractions didn't get removed after a set period. I have one feom a while ago and I dont know how and when or even if it's going to be removed

So a bunch of minor infractions over many years lead to bannings. Ezekiel was the most recent example

 

[Thaluikhain]

Where at all, in any of my statements, did I ever indicate that civility was about being polite to "Nazi ideology". Why is that even something you felt the need to remind me of?

Not wanting to speak for Saelune, but I myself saw a potential problem before here:

saying very clearly obvious things that you shouldn't say

What does "clearly obvious" mean? Any number of people have any number of ideas about that. We'd not need moderators to enforce rules if everyone agreed on the rules in the first place, after all.

If you want it clearly stated, anyone that comes into our forums spouting Nazi ideology is gonna get banned on the spot. But we're also not going to just label people Nazis or alt-right, or SJWs or whatever other term is now a thing in popular culture. I'm not allowing any of that garbage. Zero tolerance for it.

So, for example, I can spout almost but not quite Nazi ideology and that's fine as long as I barely stay on this side of the line, but should Saelune call me a Nazi they get in trouble?

Now, I'm not saying that to be petty, that sort of thing was a problem on the forums in the old days and just wasn't really addressed properly. For that matter, the alt-right hides behind rules of civility all over. That's not to say I suspect you personally, or the Escapist of supporting or ignoring them, just that it's an ongoing issue and I'm not at all surprised to see people skeptical about how this will turn out.

 

[Saelune]

Where at all, in any of my statements, did I ever indicate that civility was about being polite to "Nazi ideology". Why is that even something you felt the need to remind me of?

Not wanting to speak for Saelune, but I myself saw a potential problem before here:

saying very clearly obvious things that you shouldn't say

What does "clearly obvious" mean? Any number of people have any number of ideas about that. We'd not need moderators to enforce rules if everyone agreed on the rules in the first place, after all. Hug

If you want it clearly stated, anyone that comes into our forums spouting Nazi ideology is gonna get banned on the spot. But we're also not going to just label people Nazis or alt-right, or SJWs or whatever other term is now a thing in popular culture. I'm not allowing any of that garbage. Zero tolerance for it.

So, for example, I can spout almost but not quite Nazi ideology and that's fine as long as I barely stay on this side of the line, but should Saelune call me a Nazi they get in trouble?

Now, I'm not saying that to be petty, that sort of thing was a problem on the forums in the old days and just wasn't really addressed properly. For that matter, the alt-right hides behind rules of civility all over. That's not to say I suspect you personally, or the Escapist of supporting or ignoring them, just that it's an ongoing issue and I'm not at all surprised to see people skeptical about how this will turn out.

I am not one to throw around the term ?Nazi? at people unless they?re an actual Nazi. If someone is literally coming into to the forums to promote things like genocide, or anti semistism then of course they?re getting the boot. The same goes for people being hateful, racist, whatever. I have no tolerance for it.

You?re taking what I?m saying and assuming that we?re gonna let people straddle the line on those things, and I?m categorically telling you that people that do that sort of thing on our forums aren?t gonna be allowed to do it.

I?ve ran my own communities for 10+ years, and I?ve moderated all of them, and I?ve never had a community overrun with literal Nazis or really, assholes in general.

I don?t put up with it, and so the people worried about our current 3 strikes your out system shouldn?t be worried about it if they want the forums to stay friendly and clean. We?re not gonna police everyone, and if there?s someone doing bad shit, they?re gonna be reported, and we?re gonna take care of it.

The Lunatic. The Lunatic is a Nazi but it took for fucking ever for them to finally be banned for it.

I said what I said because of all the people on here who have done everything short of outright praising Hitler and not getting punished for it. Because of all the people advocating for white supremacy and anti-LGBT and anti-women views getting a pass and everyone pointing it out being put down or worse for it.

Literally, see the problem is, they know that. So they use dog whistles to do it. They use attempts at subtly and vague stand-ins to dance around the rules of what counts as bigotry, but you and I and everyone else knows.

I HOPE you prove me wrong, I sincerely do. No, seriously, please prove me wrong! I WANT my cynicism and doubt to be wrong, I WANT the Escapist to thrive again, I WANT things to be great! I would not keep coming back otherwise.

I just want to know you have heard my concerns and actually are taking them into consideration.

 

[Drathnoxis]

The Lunatic. The Lunatic is a Nazi but it took for fucking ever for them to finally be banned for it.

Lunatic was banned before Nick even made an account here. Let's give him a chance to prove himself and not drag up baggage from before his time.

 

[Red Sentinel]

The Lunatic. The Lunatic is a Nazi but it took for fucking ever for them to finally be banned for it.

Lunatic was banned before Nick even made an account here. Let's give him a chance to prove himself and not drag up baggage from before his time.

This thread is literally about letting Lunatic (and everyone else) back in again.

People have a right to be concerned.

 

[McElroy]

I guess it's all fine and cool to bring up some "concerns", but those that were once banned can't exactly defend themselves, now can they?

 

[Signa]

The Lunatic. The Lunatic is a Nazi but it took for fucking ever for them to finally be banned for it.

Lunatic was banned before Nick even made an account here. Let's give him a chance to prove himself and not drag up baggage from before his time.

This thread is literally about letting Lunatic (and everyone else) back in again.

People have a right to be concerned.

We're not letting "everyone" back in. The current mods are informing me of folks that really shouldn't be let back in for a variety of reasons. I've heard enough about some folks to know they're not getting back in. We're just talking smaller infractions here, and again, it's a case by case basis.

Just so you're clear here, Nick, "Nazi" is a word that's being thrown around at those that aren't allowed to defend themselves, because some people here are not willing to ignore or engage with them. I've been in a Discord server with a bunch of these Escapist pariahs for over two years now, and not one has been seen spouting national socialist ideals, or even white supremacist ideals. Not even in private with others who have been forced out or wronged by this community for not agreeing with everything that's said.

Skipping over the 5 or so ranty topics that just popped into my head that don't really need to be addressed unprompted, I hope you're taking the information you receive with a grain of salt, from literally everyone. There's been a lot of bad blood between two sides of the community, and even the mod team, and no one that I see still posting here will ever give someone a charitable chance if they disagree with something they said. I don't envy you throwing yourself into the middle of it all, and I hope they don't tear you apart. From what I've seen while I occasionally lurk, you're an actually cool dude that's probably going to bow to the pressure from the very loud, obnoxious people still posting here, still making participation in this community impossible if you're not already part of the in-group. I'd like to join your V2 forums, and get a fresh start, since I've been related to this community for a third of my life, but the lack of openness and welcoming I've seen will prevent that. If this is to be the fresh start you want it to be, everyone should be let back in so you can ban the ones that actually misbehave, instead of letting that bad blood get in the way all over again.

Good luck out there.

 

[Saelune]

I guess it's all fine and cool to bring up some "concerns", but those that were once banned can't exactly defend themselves, now can they?

They had their entire time before being banned to prove they do not deserve to be banned.

The Lunatic. The Lunatic is a Nazi but it took for fucking ever for them to finally be banned for it.

Lunatic was banned before Nick even made an account here. Let's give him a chance to prove himself and not drag up baggage from before his time.

This thread is literally about letting Lunatic (and everyone else) back in again.

People have a right to be concerned.

We're not letting "everyone" back in. The current mods are informing me of folks that really shouldn't be let back in for a variety of reasons. I've heard enough about some folks to know they're not getting back in. We're just talking smaller infractions here, and again, it's a case by case basis.

Just so you're clear here, Nick, "Nazi" is a word that's being thrown around at those that aren't allowed to defend themselves, because some people here are not willing to ignore or engage with them. I've been in a Discord server with a bunch of these Escapist pariahs for over two years now, and not one has been seen spouting national socialist ideals, or even white supremacist ideals. Not even in private with others who have been forced out or wronged by this community for not agreeing with everything that's said.

Skipping over the 5 or so ranty topics that just popped into my head that don't really need to be addressed unprompted, I hope you're taking the information you receive with a grain of salt, from literally everyone. There's been a lot of bad blood between two sides of the community, and even the mod team, and no one that I see still posting here will ever give someone a charitable chance if they disagree with something they said. I don't envy you throwing yourself into the middle of it all, and I hope they don't tear you apart. From what I've seen while I occasionally lurk, you're an actually cool dude that's probably going to bow to the pressure from the very loud, obnoxious people still posting here, still making participation in this community impossible if you're not already part of the in-group. I'd like to join your V2 forums, and get a fresh start, since I've been related to this community for a third of my life, but the lack of openness and welcoming I've seen will prevent that. If this is to be the fresh start you want it to be, everyone should be let back in so you can ban the ones that actually misbehave, instead of letting that bad blood get in the way all over again.

Good luck out there.

Nazi is a word to describe White Supremacists like The Lunatic who was blatantly racist against black people. They had their chance to prove they were not a Nazi for the many years they were here prior to being banned.

 

[Saelune]

The Lunatic. The Lunatic is a Nazi but it took for fucking ever for them to finally be banned for it.

Lunatic was banned before Nick even made an account here. Let's give him a chance to prove himself and not drag up baggage from before his time.

This thread is literally about letting Lunatic (and everyone else) back in again.

People have a right to be concerned.

We're not letting "everyone" back in. The current mods are informing me of folks that really shouldn't be let back in for a variety of reasons. I've heard enough about some folks to know they're not getting back in. We're just talking smaller infractions here, and again, it's a case by case basis.

Just so you're clear here, Nick, "Nazi" is a word that's being thrown around at those that aren't allowed to defend themselves, because some people here are not willing to ignore or engage with them. I've been in a Discord server with a bunch of these Escapist pariahs for over two years now, and not one has been seen spouting national socialist ideals, or even white supremacist ideals. Not even in private with others who have been forced out or wronged by this community for not agreeing with everything that's said.

Skipping over the 5 or so ranty topics that just popped into my head that don't really need to be addressed unprompted, I hope you're taking the information you receive with a grain of salt, from literally everyone. There's been a lot of bad blood between two sides of the community, and even the mod team, and no one that I see still posting here will ever give someone a charitable chance if they disagree with something they said. I don't envy you throwing yourself into the middle of it all, and I hope they don't tear you apart. From what I've seen while I occasionally lurk, you're an actually cool dude that's probably going to bow to the pressure from the very loud, obnoxious people still posting here, still making participation in this community impossible if you're not already part of the in-group. I'd like to join your V2 forums, and get a fresh start, since I've been related to this community for a third of my life, but the lack of openness and welcoming I've seen will prevent that. If this is to be the fresh start you want it to be, everyone should be let back in so you can ban the ones that actually misbehave, instead of letting that bad blood get in the way all over again.

Good luck out there.

I'm looking at tangible evidence when it comes to not letting some people back in. I get it from both sides lol. Facebook thinks we're all SJWs, Twitter thinks we're all alt-right...

As long as people are decent to one another I'm not going to bow to pressure on that. Not everyone is going to agree with my policies, but I'm not taking sides with one part of the community or the other.

This is another aspect where Gaddo and I butted heads all the time because he wanted this place to be the perfect echo chamber of perfect ideals, and I'm not about that. There's lines you don't cross and any reasonable person understands that. If they show a pattern of engaging in bad faith behavior, it's pretty clear and I've done this long enough to know what to look for.

There's always going to be someone that takes what I say and twist it, but I know what I'm doing and I'm confident we can have a fun and inviting forum with different points of view and the world will be OK.

You're more than welcome to join V2.

Supporting bigoted views is never 'being decent to one another'. People need to stop pretending that things like White Supremacy is ok just because some of them say please and thank you between racist statements.

 

[Dreiko_v1legacy]

People are complicated. I think what Trump was saying in his usual bumbling way with the infamous "good people on both sides" is that some of the people on both sides, bereft of context, would behave in no way that'd lead you to think they were either with the nazis or with the communists fighting in the streets.


So yeah, civility means just that, you can't expand civility to include political opinions. Civility is just saying please and thank you as you steal, rape and murder your way through life to the best that your power will allow. If you want another thing, you gotta pick another value to uphold, because civility isn't it. Liberalism or something like that, maybe?

 

[Signa]

Nazi is a word to describe White Supremacists

See, I can agree with this statement, as is. Yes, Nazi bad. Racial supremacy bad. Agreed? Agreed.

...like The Lunatic who was blatantly racist against black people.

Now here's where you lose me. I never saw this, and coming from you, I'm going to have to take it with a grain of salt. You call everyone a Nazi to the point where it's a punchline when I see you say it [footnote]I know you're aware of "our obsession" with you on the discord server, but let me be very clear here. It's not YOU, Saelune, that we are specifically enthralled with. It's how you've become the embodiment of the hysterical, discharitable, and quite frankly, brainwashed extreme of the Extreme Left of the political compass. The -idea- of Saelune has transcended the person. You're the negative stereotype of the afroed blackman joyfully chowing down on watermelon and chicken. So absurd, and even insulting that all you can do is laugh.
And don't have any illusions about the frequency either. I doubt you get mentioned even once a month, but you'll be mentioned in question like "who actually does this?" "Probably Saelune" because its a meme.[/footnote]

They had their chance to prove they were not a Nazi for the many years they were here prior to being banned.

And this is where you've gone completely off the rails. No one needs to prove they're not a Nazi. You should just assume that they aren't. I don't know how long and how many chances you "gave" to Lunatic, but unless he was praising Hitler and saying that the Jews are a problem (something, I might add, he's never done behind our closed doors, even though the floor is open for him to do so), then there's nothing for him to prove. I could accuse you of being a Nazi, and say you've never proven to me you're not one. Anything you've said against Nazis is just lip-service to hide among us good folks. Then those accusations could stand around as I repeat them over and over, even to the community manager, and hope that the lie repeated long enough becomes the truth. For you and Lunatic, it already has.

This is another aspect where Gaddo and I butted heads all the time because he wanted this place to be the perfect echo chamber of perfect ideals, and I'm not about that. There's lines you don't cross and any reasonable person understands that. If they show a pattern of engaging in bad faith behavior, it's pretty clear and I've done this long enough to know what to look for.

There's always going to be someone that takes what I say and twist it, but I know what I'm doing and I'm confident we can have a fun and inviting forum with different points of view and the world will be OK.

You're more than welcome to join V2.

I definitely sat out while Kyle was CM, because the guy seemed completely unhinged to me. There was a comment floated to me where he stated that the word "globalism" was an antisemitic slur because one blog somewhere said so, and he was willing to inflict punishment on the users here for uttering it. It's that kind of environment I'm still worried about existing that keeps me from coming back. I could come back, invest myself into the community again, and then deal with all the heartache and drama that unfolds when I get dog-piled for not agreeing with some of the users here, and then eventually banned from what had become my hangout place, or I could just skip it all and talk with people in Youtube comments, because they have been far less combative than what I have to deal with here. You and I both know Youtube comments have a reputation, so either I'm in a nice corner of the website, or this site is that toxic.

Hell, a year and a half ago on my last post, I mentioned a video that used academic techniques to study something, and when I called it as such, I had people quoting me trying to debunk everything I said, including that a Youtube video can't be academic because it's not from an academy. No one actually wants to have a conversation anymore, and would rather "win" the discussion. Bonus points for flustering your opponent and getting them warned/banned when they reply in a tone you encouraged by being overly dismissive.

Thank you for the invite, and I will keep it in mind. Be sure though, if the site's culture doesn't feel more open to new people and ideas, I'm not going to be very invested, and any posts I would make will take on a more flippant and possibly trolly tone. I'm not a mean guy, but I do like to poke sleeping bears if they make it look fun. Many people here wear their vulnerabilities out on their sleeves, so when they've buried their heads in the sand during a conversation, it gets hard to not go for the obvious target to get them riled up for shutting down the talks. Saelune can attest to that back in the Wild West and one tiff we had there. Oddly, that mean jab actually worked and we had a much more honest conversation afterwards.

 

[anthony87]

For what it's worth I quite like the look of what I'm reading from the new EIC.

I'm not really much of a forum guy these days and this is the first time I've checked this place out in over a year or so but I'd be more than happy to give the V2 forums a looksee at some stage.

 

[McElroy]

I guess it's all fine and cool to bring up some "concerns", but those that were once banned can't exactly defend themselves, now can they?

They had their entire time before being banned to prove they do not deserve to be banned.

We both know the main reason somebody gets a warning here is because of insensitive comments on a sensitive topic or being inflammatory in general. That's how I've got warnings, that's how you've got them too. If somebody really is that clear in their despicable intentions, they will get escorted to the figurative door quickly enough even with a temporary clean slate. There is no hydrophonic time chamber where one can train to become a Super Nazi troll.

 

[Red Sentinel]

I don't know how long and how many chances you "gave" to Lunatic, but unless he was praising Hitler and saying that the Jews are a problem (something, I might add, he's never done behind our closed doors, even though the floor is open for him to do so), then there's nothing for him to prove.

You saw the post he got banned for, right? The 'evidence' isn't hard to find.

In the post he was banned, he was saying literal nazis brandishing weapons were merely "white people" who were simply practicing their "freedom of speech". He also tried to draw parallels between literal nazis and some of the activists in the Black Lives Matter movement.

If what you say is correct, and Lunatic is actually not like this in real life, then that doesn't let him off the hook. Because that means he was trolling, and so his ban is still legitimate. Because he shouldn't be trolling.

 

[IceForce]

I definitely sat out while Kyle was CM, because the guy seemed completely unhinged to me. There was a comment floated to me where he stated that the word "globalism" was an antisemitic slur because one blog somewhere said so, and he was willing to inflict punishment on the users here for uttering it.

There were a few words like that. Words that apparently had secret hidden meanings that I'd never even heard of. And we were supposed to just 'know' these words and meanings, to make sure we didn't use them.

It was crazy times.

 

[Dreiko_v1legacy]

I definitely sat out while Kyle was CM, because the guy seemed completely unhinged to me. There was a comment floated to me where he stated that the word "globalism" was an antisemitic slur because one blog somewhere said so, and he was willing to inflict punishment on the users here for uttering it.

There were a few words like that. Words that apparently had secret hidden meanings that I'd never even heard of. And we were supposed to just 'know' these words and meanings, to make sure we didn't use them.

It was crazy times.

I've heard something similar with regards to terms like "elites" or what have you. I think this is just the actual corrupt people in power (globalists and others) using antisemitism as a shield to deflect valid criticism. Because pointing out someone's corruption is antisemetic if they happen to be jewish apparently.

 

[Thaluikhain]

I definitely sat out while Kyle was CM, because the guy seemed completely unhinged to me. There was a comment floated to me where he stated that the word "globalism" was an antisemitic slur because one blog somewhere said so, and he was willing to inflict punishment on the users here for uttering it.

There were a few words like that. Words that apparently had secret hidden meanings that I'd never even heard of. And we were supposed to just 'know' these words and meanings, to make sure we didn't use them.

It was crazy times.

While that one took me by surprise, looking into it "globalism" actually is commonly used by white supremacists and the like to refer to some Jewish conspiracy or other. It seems it's a pretty new thing, though.