Bayonetta as a role model

[Rachel317]

I haven't played much Bayonetta but... a feminist icon? I suspect we're talking about different games.

Nah, I acknowledge that "feminist icon" is probably too...specific at this early stage in her development. I was sure I'd taken that out of the original post...I'll have to check! It's really more about role model, or at least something that you see ONE thing in her that you like, that you can apply to yourself or your life, you know?

I liked your post and it wasn't a bad argument, but someone and everyone, should be shot for looking for role models in fictional media.

Well...I see your point, but real people tend to be dogged with, you know...not being perfect
If a woman in real life acted like Bayonetta in the same, genuine, convincing way, I'd look up to her. Unfortunately, I haven't come across this woman yet.
I wasn't specifically LOOKING or hoping to like Bayonetta as much as I do, it just kinda happened :s
And SURELY there's a character, from a book, movie, SOMETHING where you think, "Hell, if more people were like that, the world would be a better place"?

 

[Lt. Vinciti]

This prolly isnt even close to topic...


What ever happened to the free will we had?

Why does a person need a role model....

 

[Phoenixmgs_v1legacy]

This...is so perfectly said. Would you mind if I quote this in the original post? I hadn't even gone into the morality thing, but this is just so perfectly worded.
And...I'd be friends with her! I don't like the women who go out, high heels, short skirts, breasts hanging out, troweled on make up when she has an agenda. It's just so fake! But I have utmost respect for women who are sexually confident, like Bayonetta, when it's part of their character, and that's who they REALLY are, not just a fantasized version of themselves in order to get male attention. Could not agree more.

Exactly; looking deeper into a character is where you find all the good stuff. Sexuality for the sake of being sexual is fine, but if some people are able to read more into it, then that's fine too. Again, would you mind if I use this segment in the original post too?
You've perfectly summed up my feelings on the matter, AND added to it!

Go right ahead and use my quotes if you want, anything for Bayonetta.

 

[Housebroken Lunatic]

Don't get me wrong, I know a national change of ideals isn't going to happen. Humans are largely shallow and judgemental, so even if things were to change, more stereotypes would come about in place of the old ones. This is a journey I'm currently undertaking, and it's nice to think that characters like Bayonetta, when you look past the original intentions of her creation, could help MORE women and young girls realise that there ARE alternative routes to take with their lives and personalities. If you really think about it, other than the clothes flying off, Bayonetta isn't particularly sexual - her normal speech isn't sex-orientated, sure she has the sexy walk but there's no actual reference to sex specifically, it's all insinuatiopn and suggestion.

No I didn't really expect you to think that was going to happen either. But since feminism has become a political ideology, and as usual political ideologies are pretty much only capable of changins things with political methods I guess it was worth mentioning.

And sure, since Bayonetta is counter-cultural (as I've previously stated that I think she is) she should be able to present alternative routes. Although it's a shame that individual imagination doesn't bring about such realizations instead.

I'm sorry you've had to go through some hard times. It sounds like you came out of it a better person, though?

I don't know about that. I do have a shamelessly high opinion of my skills, talents and thoughts, but "good/better person" doesn't really fit the description in my opinion.

After all, being shameless and confident kind of includes being arrogant, which I am. I'm also misanthropic, I bear grudges and almost never let them go. I can be a man of principles to a near fanatical degree, and sometimes I put my survival instinct aside because I simply have to get my point across and refuse to yield in threatening situations even when it would probably do me good to do just that. Im also painfully honest, and I abide by a set of morals that doesn't quite go in synch with the popular, pseudo-christian ones of the modern world. I also break laws that I find unreasonable if I can get away with it. Oh, and i'm judgemental to! Though not in the shallow sense, thank heavens. because I truly fucking hate people who judge others when their being shallow about it. I kind of think that if you're going to judge someone the least you can do is "do your homework" so to speak and learn as much as you can about whatever it is you want to judge.

I also have an almost childish fascination with pretty stupid things (like playing with fire and explosives for instance) despite my otherwise intelligent and mature values and personality.

But I guess if you could have oversight with these pesky little "details" (hehehe, imagine writing that with a straight face XD), then I might come across as somewhat of a good person. Or at the very least; an improvement of what I was before.

Though if you trust mu judgement on the matter, despite my flaws (it might sound like im bullshitting you now but im actually pretty good at reading people) then I have to say that you come across as a decent and interesting person yourself. We might no agree completely about the character of Bayonetta (even though that's just a matter of taste), but your evocatice ideas and reasoning behind this thread for instance reveal that you don't possess a dull kind but a sharp one. And sharp minds usually fascinate me and make me respect them. Mostly because they tend to be depressingly rare.

Excellent point. Of course, I'm not saying ALL women should act like Bayonetta, especially if that's not howl they really are. I don't propose that people should be fake to fit into THIS personality type, just that you CAN be whoever you want to be, and you SHOULD be free from judgement. Of course, people will judge, but when you truly get to the stage where you can do something, or act in a certain way, for YOURSELF above all else, then I think people will become much more comfortable, and some of the stereotypes and judgements will begin to be alleviated.

My thoughts exactly.

Exactly! If it's seen in practice, then perhaps more women will realise that it's OK to act how they want to act. Unfortunately, social conditioning is a HUGE obstacle when it comes to this, and the fact that some people might be scared of being judged. But if I can say, "To hell with all of the people who don't approve", then I'm SURE there are other men and women out there who can, too.

Precisely.

The question is how this realizing can be brought about. One step in the wrong direction, I think, is the way where some societies try to use social conditioning to elmiminate or supplant an older social conditioning.

If you can imagine your average middleschool class where the teacher preach that we have to treat little Kvein or Christina with respect, friendship and tolerance just because their parents are gay or whatever, then you'll understand what I mean.

It's kind of like the previous social conditioning was about "fitting in", and the one which they are trying to replace it with is designed to FORCE the group into letting exactly everyone "fit in". Personally I believe that will only bring about more animosity. I mean, sure it would have been nice if some of my teachers in my younger years actually noticed that I was being harassed, followed and beaten by people for the crime of going to the same class as them and tried to put a stop to it. But I'd objected rather violently if the teachers had tried with the current method of making me and my antagonists into best of friends in some kind of hippie-fantasy way.

The issue wasn't that I wanted to be friends with them, the issue was more about wanting to be left the fuck alone.

So the question that I think people should ask themselves is really WHY they "should" fit in with the social collective, more than trying to force a social collective to accept and become best of friends with everyone. I mean, it's a pretty inescapable fact of life that everyone can't like everyone, and that people will hate eachoter for a variety of reasons.

I think the sooner people start to question why they want or should want to "fit in" becomes the more mainstream model, people will become less bothered by thoughts and insecurities about accidentally doing something that makes other people dislike them.

I think it's time to pop the old myth that humans are some kind of obssesively social creatures and that the social structure of our ancestors was more out of necessity and survival than an inescapable and omnipresent fact.

Hell, I don't see those women as money grabbing in the first place. If they deserve a higher wage, then they're fully entitled to it.
Even if a woman does deserve it, they're still negatively viewed, at least here in the UK. It might be different in Sweden, but there's still a stigma surrounding women earning much in part, I would imagine, due to the fact that men have always been seen as the "bread-winners". These women ARE turning the stereotypes on their heads, but are still with the next stereotype that was linked too closely to the first.

Yeah I guess it's a bit different in Sweden. The thing is, Sweden would have been one of the most gender equal countries in the world if it weren't for the fact that... Well, feminism simply went overboard. It's not like the ideals of gender-equality actually met any fanatic resistance here.

So if anything, Sweden should be considered somewhat of a cautionary tale about what happens when feminism is given way too much room and blows everyhing out of proportion. I mean, women here are not only recieving better grades in our educationary institutions through affirmative action (that might sound slanderous on my part, but it's true. This because when international tests of Swedens students and their commitées get to interpret the results, Swedish boys actually have higher scores in a vast amount of subjects than Swedish girls. Yet Swedish girls still graduate with higher overall grades here, when our educational instiutions get to do the grading), our government impose laws about gender quotas in a wide variety of job markets and in slots of higher education (meaning that if the government feels that one particular venue of higher education is overcrowded with men, they only accept female applicants the next year, and male applicants simply have to suck it up if they get rejected).

Aside from that, pretty much all popular media and public forum still rant and cheer feminist dogma, and any public figurehead who EVER utters something that might be construed as a negative comment about feminism and the current political policies more often than not finds themselves without a job eventually. Radical feminists also go completely unopposed in the media and political forums, and they get to make all manner of slanderous and downright preposterous statements about men as if men was some kind of collective group. And what's even more interesting is the fact that they always target the native born male Swedes who are for the msot part the highest tax payers and poorly represented in crime statistics, but out of political correctness the feminist dogma rarely utter a single negative comment about immigrant muslim men (who have even gone as far as enslaved and even murdered their own daughters and sisters simply because they fell in love with a Swedish man instead of someone approved by their fathers and brothers).

Quite simply, women and feminists in general enjoy ridiculously good standards, yet they constantly complain and still go with the notion that the native Swedish man and the evil patriarchal structures ingrained in Swedish culture is trying to hold them back. And the only way to solve that "problem" is to give the feminist dogma even more power.

So to the rest of the world I'd just like to say; beware the feminist. She might seem noble at first with her talk about gender equality which is all fine and dandy. But never EVER stop questioning her motives and proposed methods. If you do you might end up in this feminist nightmare that im currently stuck in.

Now this...this is sad. Are there not THAT many Asian women in Sweden? I assume that this is something not commonly seen? That's such an unfair assumption to make...it looks like every country is dogged with its own stereotypes and inaccurate judgements! This probably comes from the Thai-bride thing, the mail order wives...so at least it has SOME basis, but without knowing someone's specific circumstances, why is it fair to judge?

No it's not the most common thing, but you can be damn sure that these types of shallow judgements are being made.

The thing is, caucasian Swedish men have basically been declared as some kind of villains here, and everything they do is wrong. If they're not considered "boring" and pathetic, but actually have the balls to stand up for themselves, they're chauvinistic and hateful towards women. They're (I say "they" since im a notorious troublemaker who rarely take shit directed at my way) basically a fair target for every pun, slanderous comment and judgement. But if you ever pick on anyone else, then you're either a racist (if you happen to criticze a foreigner or immigrant) or a misogynist (if you ever criticize a woman).

Which of course result in people assuming that a woman with asian features seen with a Swedish man must be an enslaved Thai-bride or even a prostitute of some kind.

Oh, and about prostitution! Did you know that the idea of a woman working as a prostitute by her own free will is considered a complete myth here, despite very real examples of such women? Over here, all women prostitutes are basically equatable to trafficking victims, and you can be damn sure that it is men who get to take all the blame for it.

And yes, the biggest obstacle is that one thing will have to stop before another does, but that first thing can't stop until there is s general consensus that it's accurate and...gah! It's not something we're going to be done with in the next few years, but I'd like to think, again to bring it back to Bayonetta, That if women are better represented in games, we might get some REAL progression. Gaming's quite a niche medium, obviously, so the big changes won't come about within it, but maybe if developers weren't targeting horny young boys so much (during their most important time of development and opinion forming), it might help.

Of course, they won't stop though! That side of gaming is too big a market to not cater for.

Yeah, speaking of interesting female characters in video games, I think it's kind of sad that they didn't include Luger the Shadow Marshal from the first Killzone (PS2) game in the sequel.

Sure you might think that an assassin is a rather typical female stereotype in games, but what made her stand out was the fact that she wasn't really wearing some kind of skimpy and impractical black leather cat-suit but more of a military uniform (albeit with a clear black-ops design and execution) and equipment. Also she was never shown without her balaclava which she either wore as a mask along with her night vision goggles (most of the time in fact) or as a hat (meaning that she didn't do the typical and impractical cliché of a woman with a fabulous hairstyle, which would quite frankly have been grossly inappropriate in such a military setting like killzone). But through excellent voice acting and believable lines you didn't doubt her femininity in any sort of way.

Her design was feminine, but still believably military and low-key and a lot of badass at the same time (I mean, she's the only character who can actually use a knife as a thrown weapon and it's insta-kill each time >). And even if she did have a previous romantic affair with one of the male protagonists of the game (which is gratifyingly glossed over, instead of explored in ridiculous detail since the protagonists do have a war against the Helghast occupation forces to concentrate on), it's not like it ends with her turning into som goddamned damsel in distress at the end which he saves or some typical crap like that.

Pics:

If I have to name my favourite and most believable female videogame character (although perhaps not as a rolemodel due to being a bit murderous and all that), it would be Luger from Killzone. (incidently, she's also named after a weapon XD)

 

[TheRightToArmBears]

Well, I'm a man, so I'm not sure whether my input on feminist icons is any good, but I would have thought that the fact that Bayonetta is utilising sexuallity so much is a bit weak.

I would rather say that Meryl from Metal Gear Solid 4 is a better role model. I know, in the past games she relies on Snake too much appears weaker than male characters, Snake in particular, but in MGS4 she appears to be a much more grown up, sensible character. I guess that's kinda a rare moment for Hideo Kojima, but nevertheless, it's still there. Meryl is still pretty attractive in MGS4, but she's not playing on it at all, although definitely has some sexuality; she's not an 'ice queen' as MB puts it. She looks like a normal woman, there's no element of fanservice to her appearance (she was actually modified to look older; her original design for MGS4 was much more childlike), she's dressed like a soldier.

 

[Decabo]

Ummmm, no, sadly. Bayonetta is meant to be a sex icon, not a feminist one. I don't think strong women want to teach little girls to say "Do you naughty boys need a good spanking?" before they shoot someone.

True, but Bayonetta doesn't teach Cereza to be filthy, does she? In fact, she's quite gentle and loving around her, even when they first meet and she uses her gun to tilt Cereza's head to look at her. She's mothering around children, but sexually powerful when Cereza's not around.
I think you're looking at it a little too literally

I disagree. The way Bayonetta acts isn't immediately justified as tasteful simply because it's not done in front of children. And besides, doesn't Bayonetta do that "Have you been cheating on me darling?" taunt to an angel right in front of Cereza, right before she beats the shit out of it? Now that line isn't particularly dirty, but it's not something I can see, say, a female police officer saying. You can say I'm taking it to literally, and let me clarify that I think Bayonetta is awesome, probably one of my top 5 games of the year. But the defense that it's done ironically doesn't change what's actually happening: she gets naked to do powerful moves, says flirtatious dominatrix lines to opponents, and uses giant weapons like stripper poles.

 

[Rachel317]

I disagree. The way Bayonetta acts isn't immediately justified as tasteful simply because it's not done in front of children. And besides, doesn't Bayonetta do that "Have you been cheating on me darling?" taunt to an angel right in front of Cereza, right before she beats the shit out of it? Now that line isn't particularly dirty, but it's not something I can see, say, a female police officer saying. You can say I'm taking it to literally, and let me clarify that I think Bayonetta is awesome, probably one of my top 5 games of the year. But the defense that it's done ironically doesn't change what's actually happening: she gets naked to do powerful moves, says flirtatious dominatrix lines to opponents, and uses giant weapons like stripper poles.

To be fair, at that point in the game, Bayonetta doesn't realise that Cereza can see her in Purgatorio from the human world.

That's besides the point, however. I DO see what you're saying, but...other than the clothes flying off and the suggestive comments towards the angels, Bayonetta's not PARTICULARLY sexual. Not when you really think about it. The cut scenes are largely centred around character interaction, and only ONCE is the act of sex actually mentioned.

 

[Rachel317]

No I didn't really expect you to think that was going to happen either. But since feminism has become a political ideology, and as usual political ideologies are pretty much only capable of changins things with political methods I guess it was worth mentioning.

And sure, since Bayonetta is counter-cultural (as I've previously stated that I think she is) she should be able to present alternative routes. Although it's a shame that individual imagination doesn't bring about such realizations instead.

Well, yes, that's true, but maybe it takes seeing something like that in action to realise it's there. As I've said, I'm similar to Bayonetta in some ways, but I hadn't REALLY considered just acting that way, because of society's standards and conditioning.
I'm not saying I would act like Bay just to be like her or something (I'm not 12! ), but if that's who a person really is, then maybe it DOES take something which transcends society to make them realise that, yes, you CAN act in this way, or that.

I don't know about that. I do have a shamelessly high opinion of my skills, talents and thoughts, but "good/better person" doesn't really fit the description in my opinion.

"Better" is very subjective. Even just being mentally stronger than when you were a child could be classed as being a "better" person now. It's hard to judge over the internet, but you seem alright to me! And the fact that you acknowledge what you are is far more honest than some other people are. Despite the breaking of laws (if they're minor, or are REALLY unreasonable, then who am I to judge?), if you're a morally decent person, then...really, what's the harm in everything else you mentioned, being passionate about your views, etc?

To be honest, I can see how some of my replies to people would come across badly, but it's so difficult to properly say what you want to say, in the MANNER you intend to say it, over the internet. We have very similar values, so I would trust your word on things! I'd rather have someone comment and say, "I disagree BECAUSE..." than "No, you're wrong, she's too sexual to be looked up to". The fact that we disagree doesn't matter, it's the fact that we're able to have a dialogue about it without it turning into an argument.

"I kind of think that if you're going to judge someone the least you can do is "do your homework" so to speak and learn as much as you can about whatever it is you want to judge."

I'm guilty of judging people without getting to know them, but am trying SO hard to change that now. It's unfair, and could be completely inaccurate. A woman in the street, dressed up with loads of make-up..."slut" and trying to get male attention, or she just enjoys dressing like that? My first reaction will, from now on, be the latter, until proven otherwise.

The question is how this realizing can be brought about. One step in the wrong direction, I think, is the way where some societies try to use social conditioning to elmiminate or supplant an older social conditioning.

If you can imagine your average middleschool class where the teacher preach that we have to treat little Kvein or Christina with respect, friendship and tolerance just because their parents are gay or whatever, then you'll understand what I mean.

Of course, not everyone will get on with everyone else. I find this kind of double standard rubbish highly annoying. It would be more productive, in my opinion, to, yes, mediate the situation, but tell them to be CIVIL as opposed to friends.
Making a child think they should be friends with everyone is going to set them up for damage and obstacles in the future.

But, really, the only way to make a big impact would be for the media (in all of its forms) to stop preaching their rubbish. In the magazines, how often have you seen a picture of a celebrity looking not-so-good, and the writer has torn them to pieces over it? We get it often in the newspapers especially, "Rating" celebrity bodies. How is that fair? And, surely, this is giving the impression to all men and women that someone is ALWAYS judging you, so you MUST match the media's view of what "perfection" or "attractiveness" is?

Yeah I guess it's a bit different in Sweden. The thing is, Sweden would have been one of the most gender equal countries in the world if it weren't for the fact that... Well, feminism simply went overboard. It's not like the ideals of gender-equality actually met any fanatic resistance here.

Was there not much trouble with inequality BEFORE the feminist ideals really took hold?
It's extremely unfair that women should be given an easier ride, both career and academic-wise. Surely this only sends the message that women can only out-achieve men by being given help? I'm sure that's NOT what feminism is all about.

As someone else in the thread said, the genders CAN'T be equal, because we have different make-up, genetics, strengths and weaknesses. Equality will come when EVERYONE realises that there are some things that men just CAN do better than women, and vice versa.

Radical feminists also go completely unopposed in the media and political forums, and they get to make all manner of slanderous and downright preposterous statements about men as if men was some kind of collective group.

Yes, the whole "men are sexist pigs!!!!!11111oneoneoneone" thing...surely that's as bad as men saying that "all women are bad drivers", or that "all women should be in the kitchen". It's a highly sexist statement that, admittedly, will never be eradicated, because it's so much easier to blame someone else for your shortcomings than yourself.

And the Muslim thing...I must say, I think that's a problem in every country. In the UK, there's already talk about allowing Shariah Law alongside our own judicial system. Certain areas of society are "untouchable", so no negative comments can be made about them, even if said comment is wholly justified.

Oh, and about prostitution! Did you know that the idea of a woman working as a prostitute by her own free will is considered a complete myth here, despite very real examples of such women? Over here, all women prostitutes are basically equatable to trafficking victims, and you can be damn sure that it is men who get to take all the blame for it.

...what? You ARE kidding, right? Of COURSE prostitution is free-will! Even if you find yourself in the poorest of situations, there is help out there. Prostitution isn't even a last resort, you literally DO NOT have to do it.
I could understand if, perhaps, the woman had fallen in with a bad crowd and was FORCED to become a prostitute, but...this doesn't mean that ALL men are bad, and that ALL men are to blame!

Yeah, speaking of interesting female characters in video games, I think it's kind of sad that they didn't include Luger the Shadow Marshal from the first Killzone (PS2) game in the sequel.

Why SHOULDN'T women take on the assassin roles, though? We have Sam Fisher...why not a female equivalent? It's sexist to NOT include a female assassin (because, as they are created, they CAN have the exact same strength etc as their male counterparts), yet also sexist to assume that women can ONLY be assassin characters! It's such a fine, totally-obscured line.

she didn't do the typical and impractical cliché of a woman with a fabulous hairstyle, which would quite frankly have been grossly inappropriate in such a military setting like killzone). But through excellent voice acting and believable lines you didn't doubt her femininity in any sort of way.

Good. Women don't NEED to be stereotypically feminine to show that they're feminine. Obviously, Luger and Bayonetta are EXACT opposites, but they present the two sides of the same coin.
Just the same, men don't need to be barrel-chested with rippling, muscular bodies to show that they are masculine. It's just easier to present this kind of cliche character in a game than go into all sorts of metaphors and symbolism. Hell, I don't doubt that the creators of Bayonetta probably didn't intend for her to necessarily be anything more than "eye candy", but more CAN be seen of her if you wish to look for it.

Her design was feminine, but still believably military and low-key and a lot of badass at the same time (I mean, she's the only character who can actually use a knife as a thrown weapon and it's insta-kill each time >). And even if she did have a previous romantic affair with one of the male protagonists of the game (which is gratifyingly glossed over, instead of explored in ridiculous detail since the protagonists do have a war against the Helghast occupation forces to concentrate on), it's not like it ends with her turning into som goddamned damsel in distress at the end which he saves or some typical crap like that.

So...we basically have a female character who isn't an Ice Queen and isn't a Damsel in Distress...oh my, she's actually a middle ground character?! Incredible. I haven't played it, but it sounds like the developers did a good job with her character; yes, she has abilities not TYPICALLY associated with women ("You throw like a girl", etc etc), yet...she also DOES have feminine qualities. Sounds like the kind of character we're striving for!

 

[Akihiko]

I've not actually played bayonetta, and I don't really intend to either, not my type of game. So this is coming from more of an outsiders point of view. I think the biggest problem stems from the fan service that they blatently put in. Although I never played the full game, I did play the demo, and I found the opening cutscene to be full of it. Like for example her clothes conveniently getting ripped in places to show off her assets, and many other things. I'm sure Bayonetta probably has a deep personality, you seem to make some really interesting points, and I highly doubt you're lying about any of it. However all of that is just overshadowed by the problem of the fan service. I mean the first people see when they play the same is fan service, we don't get to see any of this deep personality really, other than perhaps her confidence. Which is really a shame if her personality is as deep as you say. They could have easily made the game without all of that, it was hardly necessary(Other than to rake in the money from people who go for that sort of thing). Consequently I think that's why I find it hard to call her a role model, considering how she is often portrayed in the game.

 

[thahat]

... you just made a surprisingly good few points there.
I was about to spout "loltits" but now I have to think about this a bit more. Oh, also, just so you know, feminist females don't generally think themselves better than men, they just want equality.
Good post, though.

/disagree about the femanists
the most of self proclamed feminists think females to be better.
the more normal ones are more equalists, as i think it should be.

 

[Rachel317]

I've not actually played bayonetta, and I don't really intend to either, not my type of game. So this is coming from more of an outsiders point of view. I think the biggest problem stems from the fan service that they blatently put in. Although I never played the full game, I did play the demo, and I found the opening cutscene to be full of it. Like for example her clothes conveniently getting ripped in places to show off her assets, and many other things. I'm sure Bayonetta probably has a deep personality, you seem to make some really interesting points, and I highly doubt you're lying about any of it. However all of that is just overshadowed by the problem of the fan service. I mean the first people see when they play the same is fan service, we don't get to see any of this deep personality really, other than perhaps her confidence. Which is really a shame if her personality is as deep as you say. They could have easily made the game without all of that, it was hardly necessary(Other than to rake in the money from people who go for that sort of thing). Consequently I think that's why I find it hard to call her a role model, considering how she is often portrayed in the game.

Ah, that first cut scene makes me cringe every time! There ARE some things in the game that are unnecessary. At one point, Bayonetta saves someone from being crushed by falling ruins, and as she leaps in the air to save him, he touches her ass. Unnecessary, obviously.

Bayonetta HERSELF isn't particularly sexually OTT. She's presented in that way, for sure, but other than a few suggestive comments directed towards the Angels, her character doesn't actually revolve around sex. In fact, she only references the act of sex ONCE throughout the game. If her character had this sexual element but she was presented in a similar way to modern-day Lara Croft, then maybe people would be able to take her more seriously.
Honestly, take away the sheer quantity of fan service, and she's a decent, well-rounded character. It's just a shame they steeped the game in so much fan service =/

 

[Rachel317]

[

Isn't presentation an important element of character construction? I find that things like framing and shot composition are often meant to convey ideas about the character or a given situation. So I think shes presented sexually over the top, because she is.

No one's denying that she's presented in a sexually OTT way. But it's like...say you're watching a reality TV show, and one person is edited so that they are portrayed in a certain way. This doesn't necessarily mean that they ARE that way, they might be, say...obnoxious for 5 minutes of the day, but this is what's focused on.
Bayonetta as a character isn't THAT OTT when it comes to sexuality, but she IS presented in that way, I don't deny it. She's presented this way for fan service. Take out the clothes flying off and, really, she's not that much more openly sexual than I am. But I'm certainly not a caricature, or sexually OTT, but if something is focused on, then people see it as part of the character...even though it's not, if that makes sense.

 

[Housebroken Lunatic]

I'm guilty of judging people without getting to know them, but am trying SO hard to change that now. It's unfair, and could be completely inaccurate. A woman in the street, dressed up with loads of make-up..."slut" and trying to get male attention, or she just enjoys dressing like that? My first reaction will, from now on, be the latter, until proven otherwise.

Good for you.

A tip that might help: embrace the fact that it isn't really necesary to always form an opinion or idea about everything around you, and it is especially not necessary when it is about things that you don't know much about or have no real inclination to learn anything about.

Consider the humans of the stone-age when they first heard thunder and saw lightning in the sky. They didn't know too much about the sky back then (other than it was up there), nor that lightning occurs due to the interaction between protons and electrons generating static electricity due to hot air rising rapidly to meet cold air etc. etc.

But the events were pretty impressive and noticeable. But since they couldn't really know what caused it, their imagination had to invent images of angry godlike beings slamming the sky with great big hammers, which of course lead to centuries of misconceptions and misunderstandings about the nature of... well, nature.

And if you think about it, did they NEED to know what caused lightning back then? Would the abscence of knowledge about the exact cause of it really interfere with their hunter/gatherer way of life? Probably not too much... you know, unless they got zapped by lightning because they stood alone out in a field somewhere and thus making them the highest point for the lightning to discharge through. But that's statistically unfeasible.

And it's the same thing about judging other people. It's not really that important to actually form an opinion about whether a total stranger is a promiscuous slut or if she just happens to like dressing in slutty-looking outfits, or if she just have an extremely onorthodox sense of taste.

It's not very likely to affect your daily life if you know the real reason or not. And since that fact probably won't serve to actually make you try and FIND the real reason for her outfit, then it's pretty redundant to form an opinion on the matter at all.

I gotta warn you though. There is an inherent risk that people will find you to be terribly phlegmatic and disconnected from your surroundings if you take this philosophy to extreme levels. Then again, it occasionally present some fine opportunities to yank their chains about it, haha. XD

Of course, not everyone will get on with everyone else. I find this kind of double standard rubbish highly annoying. It would be more productive, in my opinion, to, yes, mediate the situation, but tell them to be CIVIL as opposed to friends.
Making a child think they should be friends with everyone is going to set them up for damage and obstacles in the future.

Exactly. You might not like a person for a wide variety of reasons, some of them more justifiable than others. But you respect the fucking law when it comes to interacting with said individuals.

That doesn't mean that I think you have to be polite to others or refraining from stating your opinions about them. But when it comes to bullying and harassment we're not talking about calling eachother "dicktits" occasionally or something like that, but more about actual physical violence, purposeful sabotage and destruction of property, disruption of schoolwork, entrapment and stuff like that. That's unacceptable behaviour, and it should be fought and stigmatized by each and every figure of authority.

But, really, the only way to make a big impact would be for the media (in all of its forms) to stop preaching their rubbish. In the magazines, how often have you seen a picture of a celebrity looking not-so-good, and the writer has torn them to pieces over it? We get it often in the newspapers especially, "Rating" celebrity bodies. How is that fair? And, surely, this is giving the impression to all men and women that someone is ALWAYS judging you, so you MUST match the media's view of what "perfection" or "attractiveness" is?

Well, what I do is treating the media as the sensationalist bullshit that it is. What's bad is that even journalist of previously respectable newspapers have turned them into tabloid trash. So I don't really make much distinction between so called "respectable journalist" and scumsucking tabloid papparazzi douchebags.

I don't need their opinions about anything (especially not about something so extremely unimportant and ridiculous as the looks of celebrities bodies, since celebrities are for the most part total nobodies to me as is pretty much everyone else), and if I happen to crash into people who treat it as the most important thing on earth they usually get a taste of my vitriol.

And now some people might think that im a complete asshole for doing that. But you can't deny that by taking interest in crap media that doesn't serve to further anything besides giving more profits to the scumsucking assholes who keep that kind of shit going, then you DO deserve to get criticized for it. You are, after all, giving attention, support and silent consent to one of the most redundant and shitslinging industries in the world by doing so while letting your intelligence rot in the process.

Was there not much trouble with inequality BEFORE the feminist ideals really took hold?
It's extremely unfair that women should be given an easier ride, both career and academic-wise. Surely this only sends the message that women can only out-achieve men by being given help? I'm sure that's NOT what feminism is all about.

Well, during the period when feminist ideals started to pop up, Sweden was becoming pretty influenced by socialist ideals quite a lot. The thing about socialism is that it dislikes keeping traditional social classes around, equality being the big thing and all that. So it's not really a very far leap in logic to conclude that gender equality is the most socialist way to go.

After all, you can't really keep up a regime where "brothers are supposed to be equal" and all that crap while at the same time keeping all women down and reducing them to baby-producers and homemakers.

It's an interesting development actually. Tax-paying women recieved restricted rights to vote in Sweden as early as during the 1700's (however, this regarded primarily unmarried women part of certain guilds), so it wasn't a case of "free-for-all" voting, and Sweden was also still a monarchy at the time so you can't really call it true democracy. Then in 1771 the women suffrage was abolished through a new constitution. (but once again, we're not exactly talking about a true democratic government back then, so one can't really claim that men overall had more electorial power than women did on a national level)

It wasn't until the late 1800's that the propositions for women to vote in national elections came up, and it was rejected by parliament twice during to different occasions. But by 1919 it came through (probably much due to the rise of socialist ideals as well as the suffrage movement that formed in Sweden by 1902)

But ever since then, womens right to vote hasn't ever really been threatened in any way. And womens rights overall as just been steadily been rising without any particular opposition to the unbalanced level that it is now.

As someone else in the thread said, the genders CAN'T be equal, because we have different make-up, genetics, strengths and weaknesses. Equality will come when EVERYONE realises that there are some things that men just CAN do better than women, and vice versa.

Exactly.

And if you think about it, if we'd actually do what the feminists demand i.e try to eliminate perfectly NATURAL differences or give women handicap-priviliges at the expense of quality, then women should have to do something in return don't you think?

I mean, if women are supposed to be permitted to work in areas despite the fact that their natural genetic make-up make them provenly inferior at their tasks statistically, then why should it be excluded to compensate men who suffer from injustice in society becayse they are somehow genetically inferior?

Take the sex-drive for instance. When your bloodstream is pumped full of testosterone at high levels like the male genetic make-up gives rise to overall, it tends to make you pretty goddamned horny.

Yet if you look at the western dating scene, far from all men get to have sex with the women they want to have sex with. For the most part, the exchange of sex is really a "sellers market", and a significant majority of the men are exclusively buyers, not sellers.

So if this can be traced back to genetic factors (like how your genetic make-up affects the way you look, smell, sound like etc.), you know, in exactly the same way most women tend to be inferior when it comes to certain jobs (like being fire-fighters), and it's no secret that it is a significant problem since it is a leading cause in male depression to be rejected sexually (again due to their genetic make-up) and suffering from involuntary celibacy, then shouldn't women collectively have an obligation to simply "put out more"?

You can't have rights without responsibilities after all.

But you can imagine the typical femi-nazi response to such a proposition. "What? Are you crazy!? Are women supposed to be FORCED to have sex with men they aren't attracted to jsut because said men don't get enougn sex? You pig!!"

Now, im not really serious about proposing to force women to have sex with men they don't really want to have sex with. But I think it serves to illustrate a pretty good example of rights and responsibilities, as well as the hypocrisy surrounding many of the "problems" of society and the feminist view of it.

You and I probably both agree that the elimination of irrational and unfair treatment of women and men doesn't have a place ina society calling itself pro-gender equality. But when it comes to aspects that can be directly traced back to genetic factors, everyone simply have to accept the fact that nature is nature. And unless we're willing to start dabbling in fields of genetic manipulation (something which im actually for rather than against since I think that science shouldn't be constrained by irrational arguments, but that's beside the point since most of society seem to be against such fields of science), then we're just going to have to settle with the fact that men tend to naturally make better fire-fighters, police officers, soldiers, construction workers and other physically demanding jobs and that there is no real sign of gender inequality just because these fields are largely male dominated.

But good luck trying to convince your average Swedish feminist of that.

And the Muslim thing...I must say, I think that's a problem in every country. In the UK, there's already talk about allowing Shariah Law alongside our own judicial system. Certain areas of society are "untouchable", so no negative comments can be made about them, even if said comment is wholly justified.

Oh it's starting to pop up propositions of Sharia law over here too. I mean really, we have weak willed politicians ruling the western world and they are too damned politically correct to ever show any real outrage to the very notion that some ethnic groups are supposed to let themselves be treated a little differently in legal matters.

Whatever happened to the law is blind and that we are all equal under it? Now you want to let immigrants make up their own little enclaves and get to decide everything according to their own laws?

Im not afraid to be called a racist bigot, so I'll gladly say that if these people want their fucking Sharia Laws then they can go back to the countries they came from. And I also question WHY they even want Sharia Laws, since the countries they came from were largely ruled by them, and if those countries were so terribly bad that they decided to move to a democratic western country, then WHY ON EARTH would they want to institutionalize the same bullshit over here?

It might be radical, but I think that the government should consider the people who push for such drastic changes in our legal systems to be considered enemies of the state. Then again, im the kind of person who consider religious freedom to be highly overrated and a direct cause of more problems than what you get back from it.

If religious freedom cause people to want to fuck around with law, then it is a choice between religion and law. And in my opinion, religion is the one that has to go.

Sharia Law is what gets women in Iran stoned to death for defending themselves against abusive husbands or committing adultery. The idea of institutionalizing it here should never even be entertained, regardless of pressure from some muslim groups in exactly the same manner that people in general aren't supposed to be forced to abide by Christian laws or Jewish laws.

...what? You ARE kidding, right? Of COURSE prostitution is free-will! Even if you find yourself in the poorest of situations, there is help out there. Prostitution isn't even a last resort, you literally DO NOT have to do it.
I could understand if, perhaps, the woman had fallen in with a bad crowd and was FORCED to become a prostitute, but...this doesn't mean that ALL men are bad, and that ALL men are to blame!

Well, let's put it this way, according to Swedish law it is illegal for anyone to BUY sexual favours. But it isn't illegal to sell them.

Meaning that if you're caught with a prostitute that you've paid, you get punished. But the prostitute hasn't done anything wrong.

And since the large majority of active prostitutes are made up of women and not men statistically speaking, I think you can figure it out yourself exactly what kind of view of prostitution that is prevalent in the forums that matter and govern this fucking country.

Also on a side-note: isn't it interesting that shooting pornography is perfectly legal in a lot of western countries while prostitution isn't, despite the fact that both actors and actresses get paid for... you know, having sex?

I'd say obvious hypocrisy is obvious to that. But that's just me. XD

Why SHOULDN'T women take on the assassin roles, though? We have Sam Fisher...why not a female equivalent? It's sexist to NOT include a female assassin (because, as they are created, they CAN have the exact same strength etc as their male counterparts), yet also sexist to assume that women can ONLY be assassin characters! It's such a fine, totally-obscured line.

Yes of course. My point is that female assassins are somewhat of a stereotypical cliché in most games and movies. I mean if we're talking mean characters who kill people or monsters for a living, then think about it; how many female characters are usually the gruff heavy weapons specialist lugging around some barking machine-gun? (Vasquez from James Cameron's "Aliens", being a brilliant exception to the rule) How many female characters do you see run around with a sniper rifle saying "boom! headhshot!" as they pick off enemies from afar? How many female characters do you se act as your average footslooging trooper with just an assault rifle, a lit cigarette butt in their mouth and an overall mean outlook on life? Competent military leaders and officers?

It's not too common. But when it comes to revealing leotard or catsuit clad assassins with a preference for ninja-esque swords, throwing knives and karate-gimmicks, the market shows signs of a proliferation of them, wouldn't you agree?

Good. Women don't NEED to be stereotypically feminine to show that they're feminine. Obviously, Luger and Bayonetta are EXACT opposites, but they present the two sides of the same coin.
Just the same, men don't need to be barrel-chested with rippling, muscular bodies to show that they are masculine. It's just easier to present this kind of cliche character in a game than go into all sorts of metaphors and symbolism. Hell, I don't doubt that the creators of Bayonetta probably didn't intend for her to necessarily be anything more than "eye candy", but more CAN be seen of her if you wish to look for it.

Well, in Luger's case I'd say it's the voice. If you just look at the visuals she could just as well be a scrawny or somewhat effeminate man. But the voice actress does this throaty and womanly voice with a british accent so there's not really a question about gender.

Found a clip so you can listen and see for yourself if you like:

So...we basically have a female character who isn't an Ice Queen and isn't a Damsel in Distress...oh my, she's actually a middle ground character?! Incredible. I haven't played it, but it sounds like the developers did a good job with her character; yes, she has abilities not TYPICALLY associated with women ("You throw like a girl", etc etc), yet...she also DOES have feminine qualities. Sounds like the kind of character we're striving for!

Well a bit on the Ice Queen side perhaps. Then again I don't find her any more "icy" than any other person would be who does military black ops. I mean if you're trained for and have killed several people with a knife up close and watched them bleed to death gasping through a sliced up windpipe then that probably affects your personality to become more of the pragmatic, to the point and disconnected kind.

But I don't think it's too icy, or too much "icy for the sake of being icy" over-the-topness either.

 

[Decabo]

I disagree. The way Bayonetta acts isn't immediately justified as tasteful simply because it's not done in front of children. And besides, doesn't Bayonetta do that "Have you been cheating on me darling?" taunt to an angel right in front of Cereza, right before she beats the shit out of it? Now that line isn't particularly dirty, but it's not something I can see, say, a female police officer saying. You can say I'm taking it to literally, and let me clarify that I think Bayonetta is awesome, probably one of my top 5 games of the year. But the defense that it's done ironically doesn't change what's actually happening: she gets naked to do powerful moves, says flirtatious dominatrix lines to opponents, and uses giant weapons like stripper poles.

To be fair, at that point in the game, Bayonetta doesn't realise that Cereza can see her in Purgatorio from the human world.

That's besides the point, however. I DO see what you're saying, but...other than the clothes flying off and the suggestive comments towards the angels, Bayonetta's not PARTICULARLY sexual. Not when you really think about it. The cut scenes are largely centred around character interaction, and only ONCE is the act of sex actually mentioned.

"Character interaction" is a pretty broad term, and isn't necessarily void of sexuality. Character interaction could be the discussion between Luka and Bayonetta when Luka accuses her of killing his father... and Bayonetta calls him "her little Chesure puss" or something. To be fair, I appreciate the fact that actual sex isn't brought up constantly and pointlessly, (I'm looking at you, GTA: Chinatown Wars) but I still think Bayonetta is made incredibly sexual. In addition to the clothes coming off and the stripper poles, she has ludicrously long legs, has multiple BDSM torture techniques, (Such as fatal spanking)her lock-on indicator is puckered lips, and she destroys a barrier by blowing a kiss. And that's not even including the subtler attributes of hers that are more along the lines of fetishistic, such as sucking on lollipops, (And if you don't think that was meant to be sexy, check the GTA IV cover)looking like a sexy librarian, and always being in high heels. And yes, I realize her "heels" are guns, but it has the same effect: making Bayonetta's butt and hips look as good as they can. In terms of making the game feel fresh and fun, this gets the job done, but in terms of making her more of a role model, I think it takes a step back. I just don't see what lessons there are to gain from her. You could argue that it teaches girls to be independent, but really, do we still need that nowadays? I think in a world where many countries are run by women, (Australia, Canada, Argentina to name a few) as well as an industry with heroines like Samus and Lara Croft, that isn't really necessary.

 

[Judgement101]

The main selling point of that game was the sexuality, therefore I have no respect for the game or the character herself.

 

[Phoenixmgs_v1legacy]

The main selling point of that game was the sexuality, therefore I have no respect for the game or the character herself.

It seems to me the game was advertised as an action game. Here's the TGS 2009 trailer:

There's nothing overly sexual in the trailer, and the trailer is obviously advertising the action above all else. What actually got me excited for the game was that it was witches vs angels and that the angels were the bad guys. I love when stuff gets flipped around like that kinda like how Firefly is more of a Western than Sci-fi. I never got into the DMC series because demon killing just has never interested me in any medium. I was immediately interested in Bayonetta because I always thought you can do some cool things with the whole witch mythology that isn't the standard flying on brooms and cooking stuff in cauldrons. On top of all that, the creator behind Bayonetta made DMC so you know the gameplay is going to be top-notch, and it did not disappoint. Dodge offsetting alone is reason to buy the game, a huge innovation in the beat'em up (hack n' slash) genre IMO.

I definitely enjoyed Bayonetta's looks, I'd by lying if I said I didn't. But it's not the reason I wanted to play the game, and if hot main characters sell games, then I would've bought X-Blades. I actually started playing the game again because of this topic because the game is just so awesome. Bayonetta is not THAT overly sexual in the game, she's actually more sexual toward the angels (which don't seem like they have any interest with getting with her) than the actual characters. Yeah, Bayonetta's clothes are her hair and she uses her hair to summon demons; obviously, that's going to be sexual but at the same time I think it was a genius idea regardless. I really bought into Bayonetta as a character and the universe the game created with the witches vs angels (well, lumen sages). And, if you are going to make a stylized action game or movie with a women that is attractive, it's going to be sexy in my opinion because I think women that can kick ass are hot. It's probably the same way for action movies starring guys for women, I would think the guys in action movies come off as hot to women.

 

[Rachel317]

What actually got me excited for the game was that it was witches vs angels and that the angels were the bad guys. I love when stuff gets flipped around like that

It WAS an excellent idea. I don't think it's a case of "Good vs Evil", unless you count the last Lumen Sage (don't want to name any names) as "evil"...which I think he is. Otherwise, Bayonetta and the Angels were just doing jobs, really.

I was immediately interested in Bayonetta because I always thought you can do some cool things with the whole witch mythology that isn't the standard flying on brooms and cooking stuff in cauldrons. On top of all that, the creator behind Bayonetta made DMC so you know the gameplay is going to be top-notch, and it did not disappoint. Dodge offsetting alone is reason to buy the game, a huge innovation in the beat'em up (hack n' slash) genre IMO.[/quote]

AND...you know, you see things in the cut scenes that you CAN do in-game. It's not like DMC where could only do a set list. Bayonetta must have...almost 100 moves or something!
But they definitely did a fantastic job in turning the "witch" thing on it's head.

I definitely enjoyed Bayonetta's looks, I'd by lying if I said I didn't. But it's not the reason I wanted to play the game, and if hot main characters sell games, then I would've bought X-Blades. I actually started playing the game again because of this topic because the game is just so awesome.

And X-Blades was a huge pile of rubbish. It shows, they went all out on the sexual side, but gave no REAL thought to content which, in my opinion, was far worse than not having a sexy lead character.
Also, glad you're back playing Bayonetta!

Bayonetta is not THAT overly sexual in the game, she's actually more sexual toward the angels (which don't seem like they have any interest with getting with her) than the actual characters. Yeah, Bayonetta's clothes are her hair and she uses her hair to summon demons; obviously, that's going to be sexual but at the same time I think it was a genius idea regardless.

This is exactly my point. The sexuality towards the Angels is more taunting than actually flirtatious. The "have you been cheating on me?" before smacking him into the wall was just...absolutely classic.
Like, when she's naked near the start, and the big Beloved tries to grab her, and she slaps his hand away. I laugh every time, because it's so tongue in cheek. I can't really understand how she could "excite" anyone, because they hardly focus the camera on her for long, and all you see is a little bit of bum *shrugs*
If that's the case, then young boys should probably just walk past any building site, to get the same effect.

"Character interaction" is a pretty broad term, and isn't necessarily void of sexuality. Character interaction could be the discussion between Luka and Bayonetta when Luka accuses her of killing his father... and Bayonetta calls him "her little Chesure puss" or something. To be fair, I appreciate the fact that actual sex isn't brought up constantly and pointlessly, (I'm looking at you, GTA: Chinatown Wars) but I still think Bayonetta is made incredibly sexual. In addition to the clothes coming off and the stripper poles, she has ludicrously long legs, has multiple BDSM torture techniques, (Such as fatal spanking)her lock-on indicator is puckered lips, and she destroys a barrier by blowing a kiss. And that's not even including the subtler attributes of hers that are more along the lines of fetishistic, such as sucking on lollipops, (And if you don't think that was meant to be sexy, check the GTA IV cover)looking like a sexy librarian, and always being in high heels. And yes, I realize her "heels" are guns, but it has the same effect: making Bayonetta's butt and hips look as good as they can. In terms of making the game feel fresh and fun, this gets the job done, but in terms of making her more of a role model, I think it takes a step back. I just don't see what lessons there are to gain from her. You could argue that it teaches girls to be independent, but really, do we still need that nowadays? I think in a world where many countries are run by women, (Australia, Canada, Argentina to name a few) as well as an industry with heroines like Samus and Lara Croft, that isn't really necessary.

Hey, you're well within your rights to disagree.
The "Cheshire puss" IS because she had a toy cat named Cheshire though (remember, Cereza's doll that Bayonetta bandages up?), so it's more an affectionate name. However...I don't really understand how you could get sexual connotation from "Cheshire" or "Cheshire puss"?

The long legs...well, EVERY character has long legs (even Luka and Rodin), so it's obviously meant to be set in a time where that is the normal look. However, there ARE women with legs like Bayonetta's (lucky them!), but the designer (Shimiraki or something?) didn't WANT to make yet another woman with normal proportions, as she said in an interview.

The BDSM torture...yes, but only when fighting a Joy. And even then, you can make of THAT device what you will.

Fatal spanking...sorry, I don't recall this in-game? I apologise if it IS in there, but I honestly don't remember it.

The lock-on target is, in my opinion, more girly than anything. It differentiates itself from other lock-on targets because it's something only attributed with women. You don't see pucked up lips in GoW...we may differ on this, but I find it distinctly feminine.

The lolli-pops...come on! How ridiculously, amusingly small are they? If they wanted to suggest oral sex, they'd have made them as big as the one used in GTA, to make the males feel like "big men". They're ludicrously small, to suggest that "Hell, you think you're man enough for me? I don't think so".

And you'd be surprised as to the extent that women are still oppressed. Not in any significant way really, but how many women in power have you seen and think, "She must have fucked her way there"? I hear that ALL the time, and it's so unfair.
Or, how many times have you seen a woman out and about, dressed in a "flirtatious" manner, and assumed she must be a "slut", or is seeking male attention? Contrast that with the number of times you've thought, "Wow, she's really confident, she must be really comfortable dressed like that". If you're being honest, I bet the former is closest to the truth.

 

[Redlin5_v1legacy]

writers are afraid if they have a female character show any weakness ever, they'll be labelled as sexist.

Excellent point! Why should character flaws be seen as sexism? Women have weaknesses that men don't have, men have weaknesses that women don't have. These shouldn't be shied away from, but embraced.

Fantastic point. Why do we continue to try to hide the obvious? We seem to be afraid to confront these weaknesses so we throw up barriers (legally or otherwise) to discourage it.

As for the OP, beyond the obvious "She has the perfect body so she's setting unfair expectations and blah, blah blah"; I agree that Bayonetta is a fine rolemodel[footnote]Also taking the whole "Killing things" out of the equation.[/footnote].

Good post sir madam. I have nothing else to add.

 

[Phoenixmgs_v1legacy]

What actually got me excited for the game was that it was witches vs angels and that the angels were the bad guys. I love when stuff gets flipped around like that

It WAS an excellent idea. I don't think it's a case of "Good vs Evil", unless you count the last Lumen Sage (don't want to name any names) as "evil"...which I think he is. Otherwise, Bayonetta and the Angels were just doing jobs, really.

I was mainly referring to how the game looked before it came out; Bayonetta, the witch, seemed like she was indeed the good character yet she was fighting angels. So, I was thinking angels = bad, witches = good before I played the game.

Spoiler

The game ended up mainly being about a balance of power between the demons and angels who both had their own god. Neither side was good or bad. The last Lumen Sage tried unite all three worlds under his control.

Fatal spanking...sorry, I don't recall this in-game? I apologise if it IS in there, but I honestly don't remember it.

I believe you can spank with the pistols (Scarborough Fair). I don't know what the name of the moves are but certain moves let you build up magic much faster. For example, you can use the whip to grab an enemy you hit into the air and then you can smack him down on the ground a few times (I believe punch, punch, kick, punch (puts him in air), punch to grab with whip). The katana allows you to stab down on a stunned enemy several times (punch, punch, punch, kick, kick (he's on the ground and stunned), then mash the punch button). I believe the pistols will spank the enemy using the same combo as the katana (PPPKK-P). These moves allow you to build up magic quite a bit faster, and I don't think every weapon has one of these moves. I beat the game on NSIC and pulling off these moves is a huge help as you can do a lot more torture attacks. And, purple butterflies are the BEST accessory, which use magic so you need as much magic as possible.

 

[Rachel317]

*Highly Impressed* ..Wow, I mean I had seen people become very passionate about their Role Model but...you have hit the highest peek of being "True" to your morals. Congrats, no sarcasm this is literally surprising and I read it all...

That was the most outstanding part. Looking past her sexuality of an appearance, body proud, human figure, and even overcoming situations. The reason being is that she fights for what she feels is right even if it's conflicted as "Evil" in some ideal.

Another thing I admire so much about her besides knowing you're highly inspired by her (Which is a really good thing) is that she doesn't tend to act weak nor just mere lustful...she actually makes a new meaning to "Hardcore" or perhaps "She is underestimated, show them your true qualities" ...Indeed I am very proud of your Thread. Never have I gazed on someone being so focused on everything positive about their character besides the Obvious and when I state that I mean (No offense) what guys Notice... Great work! ^_^

Thank you! I've had people say they agree, but never this level of praise
I think it could be easier for me to see past the sexuality, because of being a woman, so the sexual stuff isn't marketed at me so much. I'm not saying that all guys CAN'T see past the sexual stuff, however (you have, for being able to see what I'm getting at!).

I'm not one of those women who is jealous of someone who is prettier than me, or more intelligent, I will give praise where praise is due. It could be questionable, seen as how Bayonetta is a fictional character, but I personally believe that there's more to her than the sexual way in which she's presented. As I've said, sexuality surrounds her, in the way the developers have made her clothes fly off for super-powered attacks, but her personality itself doesn't revolve around sex.
But yes, you're right, shes not particularly "lustful". She references sex ONCE in a relatively innocent way, and the love interest sideline story isn't presented in a sexual way, just rather tender and affectionately.

So, again, thank you for your contribution, Ryan!

I was mainly referring to how the game looked before it came out; Bayonetta, the witch, seemed like she was indeed the good character yet she was fighting angels. So, I was thinking angels = bad, witches = good before I played the game.

I know, I know. The angels really ARE bad guys, especially the Lumen Sages. I mean, instigating the witch hunts...of course they're the bad guys! Dante did demons, it was obviously time for a switch around. I thought there'd be a big morality debate, as in people not wanting to kill angels, but they handled it really well, and it never really felt like Bay WAS a bad guy, or that the Angels were only good guys at the mercy of the bad guy. It was a nice switch around, for sure. I didn't mean it to sound like I was contradicting you, I thought it was great to see a non-stereotypically good vs evil game.

Spoiler

To be fair, Balder was a bit of a tyrant. He killed Luka's father for not agreeing with "my philosophies" or way of doing things or something, he instigated the witch hunts which wiped the Umbra Witches out so that he could preserve the Left Eye...the angels themselves were doing a job, Balder WAS evil. Not even misunderstood, oh I'm doing things for the greater good. Instigating the witch hunts wiped out one side of the balance, so the whole thing was his fault so that he could create a world in his own vision. Bearing in mind that Bayonetta was unconscious by that point, so he would have been on his own to run things (we don't have any idea how long Bayonetta might have been out for.