That was my first GOT episode. And Bob's MASSIVE hard-on for Nintendo didn't leak through, either..Lucky Chainsaw said:
OT: Bayonetta is a fantastically well done character, that managed to overcome being a mere sex symbol.
Bayonetta as a role model
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OT: Bayonetta is a fantastically well done character, that managed to overcome being a mere sex symbol.
Ok I have not played the game so I can't say much, but from hear-say I gather that Bayonetta and the game itself isn't only about fanservice, which first surprises me and secondly I am proud that at least some gamedesigners are trying to get out of the classic "sex sales" model. Only problem is, don't lose sight that some people did play this game to watch a sexy woman kill dudes halfnaked. Is this bad? I'd say not really, as long as the character offers something else, more deep for players who are looking for it.
Grrr I have to play this sometime...
Grrr I have to play this sometime...
I'm going to say this straight out. I'm a feminist. Hardcore, ass-kicking, philosophically minded feminist. I've also not played Bayonetta.
However, I consider her something I'd associate more closely with my own morality than say, Lara Croft. I do still have certain issue with her, but we'll get to that. Everything I've noted about Bayonetta is from gameplay videos and online discussions.
I appreciate Bayonetta's outward, even overpowering sexuality. She's a domineering woman which is so rare to see in a global culture which muffles female power with cuteness or deadens sexuality with chastity and ice-queen syndrome. She knows that sex is good, she behaves in a manner which invites it, but there's also a challenge here, the undertones of "Please, you couldn't handle this." It's an arrogance, a superiority which I find a lot of non-desexualised female characters lack, again to make them more 'acceptable' to a male audience which is perceived to be unwelcoming of challenge. It relates to an issue of how men are perceived as players and consumers too, because so often they're taken to be the lowest common denominator type of person who can't tolerate any kind of threat to his self-assurance or intellect lest he realise how little of those he has. I've said before about the media representation of men, is this really how they/you wish to be seen?
As for her appearance, the hugely exaggerated legs are a source of amusement for me. They are so wildly out of proportion it's a wonder she can walk at all considering they take up 2/3rds of her height. The only comparably proportioned figure is that of Svetlana Pankratova, world record holder for longest legs in the world. She's 6'7, and her legs are 65% of her height. Even she is built slightly more in width proportion. Bayonetta is comedic, even though her movement and costume make her out to be sexualised as indeed she is.
My issue with her overt physicality comes through in its incessantly titillating efforts. This I relate to an endemic problem where only the male gaze is catered for in popular media. Where's the male version of this character for heterosexual women? Or the lesbian version where instead of felating amusingly small lollipops, she munches candied flowers with vigour to get stat bonuses.
I wouldn't have any problems with this kind of media if there was an equivalent for women, or anyone who doesn't identify as heterosexual male. Alas, our medium is so steeped in the obsession with male sexuality and pandering to it that such things are unlikely to occur for a while. Probably because no-one is willing to risk marketing to chast, delicate women, defenders of pristine morality.
However, I consider her something I'd associate more closely with my own morality than say, Lara Croft. I do still have certain issue with her, but we'll get to that. Everything I've noted about Bayonetta is from gameplay videos and online discussions.
I appreciate Bayonetta's outward, even overpowering sexuality. She's a domineering woman which is so rare to see in a global culture which muffles female power with cuteness or deadens sexuality with chastity and ice-queen syndrome. She knows that sex is good, she behaves in a manner which invites it, but there's also a challenge here, the undertones of "Please, you couldn't handle this." It's an arrogance, a superiority which I find a lot of non-desexualised female characters lack, again to make them more 'acceptable' to a male audience which is perceived to be unwelcoming of challenge. It relates to an issue of how men are perceived as players and consumers too, because so often they're taken to be the lowest common denominator type of person who can't tolerate any kind of threat to his self-assurance or intellect lest he realise how little of those he has. I've said before about the media representation of men, is this really how they/you wish to be seen?
As for her appearance, the hugely exaggerated legs are a source of amusement for me. They are so wildly out of proportion it's a wonder she can walk at all considering they take up 2/3rds of her height. The only comparably proportioned figure is that of Svetlana Pankratova, world record holder for longest legs in the world. She's 6'7, and her legs are 65% of her height. Even she is built slightly more in width proportion. Bayonetta is comedic, even though her movement and costume make her out to be sexualised as indeed she is.
My issue with her overt physicality comes through in its incessantly titillating efforts. This I relate to an endemic problem where only the male gaze is catered for in popular media. Where's the male version of this character for heterosexual women? Or the lesbian version where instead of felating amusingly small lollipops, she munches candied flowers with vigour to get stat bonuses.
I wouldn't have any problems with this kind of media if there was an equivalent for women, or anyone who doesn't identify as heterosexual male. Alas, our medium is so steeped in the obsession with male sexuality and pandering to it that such things are unlikely to occur for a while. Probably because no-one is willing to risk marketing to chast, delicate women, defenders of pristine morality.
obscurumlux01: Are you really suggesting that having a seagull nurse your broken body back to health is a more realistic scenario for inspiration than enjoying Bayonetta?
Also, I think people are being a bit harsh on the OP. She never said Bayonetta was realistic, just more so than many other characters, while admitting that her limbs are exaggerated. So comments like 'ZOMG she's a spider giraffe' and 'so and so from such a such a game was more realistic' are sort of missing the point.
Also, I think people are being a bit harsh on the OP. She never said Bayonetta was realistic, just more so than many other characters, while admitting that her limbs are exaggerated. So comments like 'ZOMG she's a spider giraffe' and 'so and so from such a such a game was more realistic' are sort of missing the point.
EXACTLY. Fair enough, every gamer is entitled to see her as one thing or another. I formed my opinion of her during the several playthroughs I've completed, and find something new that surprises me every time.MikhailGH said:
How annoyed would people be if I said, "Dante is nothing more than fan service for women, there is nothing deeper in his personality, he's an empty shell of a character"?
Just because one person sees something else in Bay, that doesn't mean everyone else sees it, and vice versa.
Lara is very conflicted. She murders people who might get to the treasures first, then wonders how good a person she is. Bayonetta doesn't pretend to be anything other than a cool, intelligent, highly sexually charged woman who kills things for a living. You never wonder whether she's evil or good, because she helps to maintain the balance of the world. But that's the thing, there aren't contradictory sides to her character, in the sense that Croft has.Labyrinth said:
I'm exactly like you, I have much more in common with Bayonetta than a lot of other female characters, and I think this is because developers seem to be not shying away from presenting a sexually open woman. Sexuality, in a way, DOES help to define a person, or at least a gender. This shouldn't be taboo, and it shouldn't be ignored.
This sums it up pretty well. If Bayonetta was a real woman, many guys would rather label her a "slut" because they know they could never have her, than risk getting shot down. Why is it so wrong that a character should acknowledge that sex is good, and that she loves it? The act of sex doesn't dominate the game, nor Bayonetta as a character, only references and suggestions.
I assume this is because males still dominate the gaming market, and people don't seem to realise that women are just as sexually charged as men, they just either don't want you to know it or, after years and years of oppression and suppression, some people may still find it slightly taboo to acknowledge they have ANY sexual desires.
Perhaps a REAL revolution is on the horizon?
I have nothing to add to this. If every male assumes that women only do things or are presented in a certain way for the males' gratification and pleasure, then we haven't really moved on at all from the era before the Suffragettes.
Brilliantly put! I'm not asking how well Bayonetta stands up as a feminist icon against other female characters, but based on her own merits which I brought up in the post.oldskoolandi said:
You're one of very few people to contribute who have actually understood what I'm trying to get at. Maybe I didn't do a very good job of articulating properly what I wanted to say, originally, but I don't think it's THAT difficult to follow.
Thank you, oldskoolandi, for NOT missing the point and for talking sense!
Also...yeah, having a seagull nurse you back to health seemed much more bizarre to me than a woman who likes to dance and shows off her body.
Ok, that shocks me.Rachel317 said:
http://www.box10.com/ghost-n-goblins.html Do it nao!
Note how he's semi-naked with the woman bending over him to start with.
I really doubt it, but that doesn't mean that some women might find that.
I'll check it out at some point, based on how fun it sounds.The_root_of_all_evil said:Ok, that shocks me.Rachel317 said:
http://www.box10.com/ghost-n-goblins.html Do it nao!
Note how he's semi-naked with the woman bending over him to start with.
I really doubt it, but that doesn't mean that some women might find that.
So...do YOU see GandG as being sexist towards men?
And, ok...so, do the majority of men finnd Bayonetta attractive? If we assume that 60% of men who play the game find her sexually desirable, does that mean that the other 40% are wrong or weird for NOT wanting her?
In the same way, if 60% of women find the GandG guy sexually attractive, does this mean he can't be anything deeper to the other 40%? Are the 40% WRONG for seeing past the sexual and aesthetic aspects to something more meaningful? Forget about what the original intention of the developers was, because each person's interpretation will be different, and specific to them.
This is about YOUR analysis, not what you believe the developers want you to see.
I think that the "sexist" role of the woman being the objective is the same as the male being the warrior that has to go through hell just to get a damn kiss.Rachel317 said:
Doesn't matter. We've already established that if anyone does, then it's sexist. And if anyone doesn't, it's also sexist.
I'm just trying to find a point where we can say "Yes, that's right", instead of "I'm appalled by your unspoken insinuations, whatever they may be."
I hated bayonetta. Biggest dissipointment of the last decade. I pre ordered it everything i am one of the biggest dmc fans ever so i was like am in there am getting it. midnight launch baby. like hell the dude who did dmc1 made it so i couldnt miss that at all. it was just wow.
Shes overly sexualized in every way. Shes a gaint fetish. Like really her super moves maker he go naked. The ending credits is her dancing and shaking her ass as she flashed from almost naked to clothed. I felt embarrsed and thats coming from a guy who loved FFX-2. Then i found out the developer was upset that bayonetta porn was popping up. Have you seen the way you made your chracter! shes just eye candy thats it!. Bayonetta is just like dead or alive!
There was an interveiw with him and he commented on all the hard work it took to make her ass prefect. Like %^&% really? I returned it. Its just wow. I'll stick to my devil may cry 1-4 and thats it.
Shes overly sexualized in every way. Shes a gaint fetish. Like really her super moves maker he go naked. The ending credits is her dancing and shaking her ass as she flashed from almost naked to clothed. I felt embarrsed and thats coming from a guy who loved FFX-2. Then i found out the developer was upset that bayonetta porn was popping up. Have you seen the way you made your chracter! shes just eye candy thats it!. Bayonetta is just like dead or alive!
There was an interveiw with him and he commented on all the hard work it took to make her ass prefect. Like %^&% really? I returned it. Its just wow. I'll stick to my devil may cry 1-4 and thats it.
I certainly wouldn't say 40% of people are weird or wrong if they dont find her attractive, it's all down to personal tastes. Maybe some people find glasses a turn off, or prefer blondes, whatever the reason might be. That applies equally to any game character.Rachel317 said:
I also wouldn't say 40% are wrong for seeing something deeper in a protagonist, and of course we shouldn't preclude the possibility of people being capable of finding a character both sexually desirable and still seeing something deeper and more meaningful about them, whatever that individuals interpretation may be.
You have to make shit up to justify yourself. You have to play two sides against one another to make it work. I'm not trolling, your logic is terrible.Rachel317 said:
I understand you want her to be a feminist icon. The idea that she is is rather silly, however. Perhaps English is not your first language, as some of yoru posts might indicate and you are working off of different concepts. I doubt it, however, as anyone who thinks Bayonetta is a more realistic woman than Lara Croft is either grasping at straws or woefully misinformed about human anatomy. And before anyone cuts in on me, this is an SAT question: We're not going for who is realistic, but which one best fits the answer.
Trying to indicate that a feminist icon takes no nonsense but then has to hide that same element from a child? I mean, what reason is there besides shame? Little girls shouldn't be exposed to "feminism?" What tripe!
Call me a troll if you want, but your argument's a house of cards. And I don't mind differing opinions, but opinions not based on sound reasoning are not worth the air wasted upon uttering them. I treat your argument with the same seriousness of any other poorly constructed opinion, be it flat earthers, 9-11 truthers, or the "wishful thinking" crowd (It's true because I want it to be true). You seem to fit into that last group pretty neatly.
Or, I'm just trolling, because I'm not telling you what you want to hear and that endangers your house of cards. It's a shame you seem more inclined to believe the latter, since it's inline with your theory of Bayonetta as a feminist icon; I want it to be true, and damn logic!
only if one completely disregards the terms.Pirate Kitty said:
Kinda like saying "abortion is murder." It's a nice bumper slogan, but it doesn't have a lick of truth to it.
I don't think it's sexist to find her attractive or not. To be honest, this topic isn't particularly about her looks, just personality and general attitude.The_root_of_all_evil said:
But on the general looks thing, I must say that I find her attractive. Obviously that's just my personal opinion, so its not like the developers tried to make a woman who could only appeal to men. I'm not sexually attracted to her, but she's a beautiful character, IMO.
EDIT: Also, I do agree about the male having to do all that stuff, usually for a woman. As much as I love the game, look at Enslaved. Big, muscular dude has to help little woman who can't defend herself. Sure, the relationship develops, but she still enslaves him to suit her own purposes. Nothing wrong with this kind of game but, in this context, you're very much within your rights to bring it up. Maybe game developers will never accurately present real life, but I suppose thats not what most people play games for; it's for the escapism, the dramatic, romanticised story.
So, doesn't this suggest that the developers didn't create her to be purely an object of sexual desire? Just because a woman (IRL) dresses seductively, does this mean there is nothing more to her personality beyond the sexual stuff? Or...is it just that society makes us BELIEVE that all humans are shallow, and only one thing truly defines them? I'm slightly upset at the pornographic images of her turning up because, although she has that element, she's so much more as a character. Thats like saying a woman who dresses in short skirts deserves to be raped.Legion IV said:
Most true. I actually can't add anything to this, because you've put it so well.oldskoolandi said:
I'm not saying that people who DON'T see Bay as an inspirational character are wrong either. Opinions will differ, of course. It just seems to me that it's mainly males who are saying she's, basically, a slut, whilst the females are saying she's more than that. I'm just trying to figure out which opinion is more accurate.
I'd be surprised if many men put much thought into whether or not they see characters as feminist icons. From what's been said, it seems that video game characters women can actually identify with are rare, so it should be likely that when one does come along women do recognize that.Rachel317 said:
Men are more likely to simply say 'Yeah, I would/ Nah not my type' and leave it at that.
You are quite annoying, aren't you? I ask if you're trolling because you don't seem to be contributing much other than a personal attack on me, as opposed to the ideas presented. I'm all for opposing opinions. If you'd read through the whole of this topic, you'd see that I've happily engaged people in conversation who have believed exactly the opposite of myself. That's what this thread is about. However, I take exception at people saying English is not my first language. Who do you actually think you are? Many more people have understand what I'm getting at than not, and have crafted their own arguments as to why they agree/disagree. You, on the other hand, seem to have missed the point entirely, and are criticising me personally as opposed to the post/arguments.Zachary Amaranth said:
You're one of those people who can't bear to be wrong, aren't you? Of course I would like Bayonetta to be an icon, otherwise I WOULDN'T HAVE POSTED THIS. However, I think this particular argument should be left alone; neither of us is going to change our opinion.
Also, it's not about "shame"... Bayonetta doesn't HIDE the sexuality from Cereza, she does a sexy dance right in front of the girl when they hijack a missile. She tones down the sexuality, because children are innocent, and shouldn't necessarily be presented with OTT sexuality before they are mature enough. However, there are things BESIDES Bayonetta's sexuality which women AND children can learn from, ie, her confidence and strength (emotionally and mentally).
Why constantly focus on the sexual stuff when I, and other contributors, have expressed other ideas?
Yes..."I would so hit that!"oldskoolandi said:
I didn't necessarily post this topic to then be able to say, "Well, OF COURSE men aren't going to understand the implications of feminism" or "OF COURSE women will think she's a slut" or whatever. The opposing view points, largely fuelled by gender differences, are very interesting.
^ I second your post ^obscurumlux01 said:Congrats Rachel, you actually said stuff so utterly absurd as to make me register an account just to respond. *claps*
*snipped in spots*
1. Bayonetta does not shy away from her sexuality. As we all know, that game is laden with sexual references, innuendo and partial nudity. However, I don't believe that the creators specifically created Bayonetta to be the sexual object that people have claimed. Her sexuality is part of her character, it's not just thrown in as sleazy pleasure on the side. When women were oppressed, their sexuality was something to be seen as shameful. History is littered with evidence of this. Surely, by embracing her sexuality so completely, using her sexuality to create highly powerful, highly charged attacks to despatch her enemies, it's safe to say that Bayonetta is the epitome of the things feminism strives and stands for?
-I don't even know where to begin but here's a start: YOU ARE WRONG. And here's why.
-Bayonetta is a blatent, perversive, shamefully overly-sexualized wet-dream-in-a-game. Its one the most utterly shameful representations of women ever done in a video game since 'Dead or Alive Extreme Beach Volleyball' was made. Or perhaps 'The Guy Game' with that barely-18 girl that got the game recalled.
-The glasses are a gimmick, nowhere does it show in her 'background' that she's educated or worldly. You have the fucking nerve to compare her to Lara Croft, when at least Lara has an extensively educated background (at least till its retconned in the new series) where she graduated from top British Universities and so on. She makes it a point to even brag about it whenever you go to her 'manor' in various of the older Tomb Raider games. Yes even Lara was a sex object in marketing materials, however you didn't really have her flashing a lot of skin in-game, just wearing a lot of tight outfits.
-Bayonetta strips naked because her entire outfit is made of her hair. Ok fine, points for creativity, but it also gives them an excuse to strip her anytime she does a 'special move', wtf now? How's that empowering again? The crap that Bayonetta does that counts for 'combat' seems like some wacked-up quicktime events from a 3rd-rate hentai game.
-Even one of the artists spent 'hours sculpting the perfect ass', so I fail to see how she couldn't be seen as a perversion of a guy's wet-dream even when the artists fell for it.
-You honestly believe that sexuality is what empowers a woman? You have a seriously warped view on both true femininity and empowerment. What empowers a woman is *confidence*, not necessarily sexuality. Being even moderately attractive, but *very* confident, THAT is empowerment, to get what you want WITHOUT having to debase yourself as a fucking piece of meat! Guess what? Stripping naked to perform 'special attacks' is exactly the OPPOSITE of empowerment, its shameless servitude to the desires of the men who created her.
2. Bayonetta is a strong, powerful, highly independent woman. Even Lara Croft has males at her side, helping her. Sure, Bayonetta has Luka (and Rodin and Enzo to a certain extent, although they can largely be ignored, because they don't affect gameplay), but he's only really there to look after Cereza when Bayonetta is kicking Angel arse. She is completely independent and, on the odd occasions when she fights with a partner, it is always Jeanne. Platinum Games presents an environment that truly is a "Woman's World"; even Jubileus, the Creator, is a female, whereas the angels are referred to as "boys" at every turn.
-Bayonetta is only as 'strong' as her magic lets her be.
-Bayonetta is so independent that she has to resort to summoning demons/monsters to do most of her fighting for her. Really now? She's a gussied-up version of a warlock, nothing more.
-Lara Croft has males at her side!? WHEN!? WHEN!? Are you referring to that shit-storm of a game, Angel of Darkness? Or her 'sidekick' that was only there briefly and ended up betraying her anyways? Lara specifically does NOT trust males, period! Especially in the line of work that she's in! She does what she has to in order to get what she wants, once she has that she cares less about them.
3. I'll probably be berated for this, but I believe that Bayonetta represents the female form better than a lot of other female characters and women in the media. Yes, her limbs are exaggerated, but she actually has curves, an ass, she has breasts and she's not particularly skinny/size zero, which is what the media too often presents as perfection. Sure, she's slim (hell, she fights angels for a living, she has to be in great shape), but she bears more resemblance to real females than some others I've seen.
-WRONG! Bayonetta has the most disproportionate limbs of just about any 'realistic' female video game character outside of fighting games. Have you seen her legs!? How does one perform acrobatics with those absurd shoes!? And I'm not sure where you got 'skeletal female = hawtness' from, but maybe you have ignored EVERY SINGLE FIGHTING GAME EVER that is the exact opposite of that, with plenty of 'T&A'. Even outside of fighting games, the most common portrayal of video game females is a well-endowed and 'bootylicious' woman. Bayonetta is a freakishly-long-legged spider-woman that seems nothing more than a sick perversion of true woman, NOT a role model!
4. This is slightly taken out of context (I'm a Literature student, it's what I do
-Wow...you want inspiration dear? Not from Bayonetta, but instead from Terra, from Celes, from Samus, hell...from Lara Croft even. Inspiration is having the will to go on after the world is completely decimated and all your friends are either dead or gone and you're stuck all fucking alone on an island with the only friend you've had for the past few months who just DIED because you fucking FAILED to give him healthy fish! And then you jump off a fucking cliff in a suicide attempt and only survive because a seagull manages to find your broken corpse and nurse you back to health! THAT is fucking inspiration, not a one-line-canned ass response from Bayonetta!
-You want real literature and tenacity? You want a decent story? Go play FF6. Really.
5. Bayonetta is completely comfortable in her own skin. Admittedly, she IS gorgeous, with a body to be proud of, and seems to be just as comfortable naked as she is fully clothed. Despite how beautiful she is, she's also teaching a great lesson because, if more women could feel comfortable with themselves, we'd be in a much happier place. Bayonetta never claims to be gorgeous but rather seems to be largely oblivious. She DOES say to Luka, "Do I LOOK like I have any interest in children?", referencing her body. But that could be more about how in shape she is as opposed to how hot she is. As I say, she never makes a reference to her own BEAUTY as opposed to BODY which suggests that you can still be confident and sexy, even if you're relatively average-looking.
-Bayonetta is shamelessly flaunting her T&A because she is a vapid, shallow, hallow shell of a witch that has little to nothing to offer beyond her looks.
To wrap this up. You're looking for a 'role model' in the wrong place. Completely wrong place. Bayonetta is shameless flaunting of T&A. She's a convulated collection of fetishes. There are many other examples of real feminism and empowerment (FF6, Metroid series). True female empowerment is the ability of a woman to have both the confidence and desire to bypass artificially-imposed societal expectations and rise above to fulfill her true potential. Whether its being 'the best mother EVAR' or becoming a docter/nurse/lawyer or whatever. Its having the CHOICE of a woman being able to choose her own future and not having it decided for her, THAT is empowerment. This can all be done minus overt T&A flaunting/sexuality.
@ the Mods: I know, I know. I probably won't be posting again but hopefully this can stay up long enough to just make its point.
If they really wanted her to be an Icon for women, she would be a role model for people to follow. Not some over-sexualized being.
Even her role is that of a steriotype. Shes a "Witch". Doesnt that kinda stand against what feminists want? Breaking the steriotype of women being weak, evil, or un-equal to men?
And i agree with you on the issue of her being completely unrealistic. 90% of all women dont have mile long legs, massive breasts, and a perfict behind. And most of them would never dream of wearing a suit half that tight unless theyer trying to turn tricks. Shouldent we be trying to get women out of skin tight suits, constantly blabbing sexual remarks?
Im all for strong, independant women, but theres a line you have to draw.
If that is your idea of what women should be, theres something horribly wrong with you.
Nobody insinuated that.Ahiru77 said:
Name one male character who is TRULY an every man. And Gordion from Half Life doesn't count, because he doesn't speak, thus the player is invited to create his personality and backstory, or possibly even to project themselves on to him.
One character with a fully developed personality with the same, normal conflicts, problems, strengths and weaknesses as a normal guy. They don't exist, because they're fantasy people. They may be conflicted on some levels, but other than Homer Simpson in the Simpson games, a fantasy "every man" doesn't exist, because they're not fun to play.