Before you go defending Phil Fish...

[michael87cn]

Are the recent Zeldas and Marios not too hand-holdy? What exactly am I supposed to be disagreeing with? The majority of the video was people other than Fish talking, and they all happened to agree with him. Why is this video directed at Fish?

This is a witch hunt and a hate campaign. I will take no part in this.

Pretty much exactly what this is. A witch hunt.

Most of the animosity towards Fish stems from his "they suck" comment. Most of the rest is predicated on the already-present hatred from that comment.

Yet, if people would actually take the fucking time to listen to what he and the other panel members were saying, they'd realize that the panel members actually like Japanese games, but they don't like the direction that industry is trending in.

Hell, they even criticized western game design. But no one brings that up, of course.

Granted, the man could have worded his initial response in a...less twat-y fashion. But that doesn't change the fact that the man in the audience asked for his opinion on the current-gen of Japanese games, and Fish then responded with his opinion.

'Course, that hasn't stopped people from tunnel-visioning on the "they suck" comment and acting as though Fish simply brow-beat the guy.

Now to be fair, Fish has made other crude comments since that panel. But you know what? Most of them were on the back of being incessantly harassed by asshole gamers and dick-bag media pundits. All of whom seemed to make it their personal mission to make Fish pay for that "they suck" comment.

That said, will I defend Fish? Hell no. Not entirely, anyway. The guy can be pretty damn crass. There's no denying that.

However, I'm sure as hell not hopping on the hate train people like the OP seem hell-bent on pushing forward. The internet and gaming community at large have been far more cruel and "douche-y" than Fish has ever been.

I agree with this guy. Its good to see some people thinking before just hopping on the hate train.

You should never judge someone negatively or positively just because everyone else is. Facts first, always.

 

[default]

He was a massive asshole to that poor fellow, but god damn it is he right when it comes to game design (even though I didn't like Fez), and the second fellow too. I am so sick of being pushed down a corridor with bloody text boxes popping up in my face over and over again. It takes me out of the experience and ruins my fun, personally. Give me a massive, dangerous, mysterious open-world and basic tools with which to face it anyday. That's one of the reasons I love Dark Souls and the original LOZ so much.

 

[The Preened Mr. Fust]

Are the recent Zeldas and Marios not too hand-holdy? What exactly am I supposed to be disagreeing with? The majority of the video was people other than Fish talking, and they all happened to agree with him. Why is this video directed at Fish?

This is a witch hunt and a hate campaign. I will take no part in this.

Pretty much exactly what this is. A witch hunt.

Most of the animosity towards Fish stems from his "they suck" comment. Most of the rest is predicated on the already-present hatred from that comment.

Yet, if people would actually take the fucking time to listen to what he and the other panel members were saying, they'd realize that the panel members actually like Japanese games, but they don't like the direction that industry is trending in.

Hell, they even criticized western game design. But no one brings that up, of course.

Granted, the man could have worded his initial response in a...less twat-y fashion. But that doesn't change the fact that the man in the audience asked for his opinion on the current-gen of Japanese games, and Fish then responded with his opinion.

'Course, that hasn't stopped people from tunnel-visioning on the "they suck" comment and acting as though Fish simply brow-beat the guy.

Now to be fair, Fish has made other crude comments since that panel. But you know what? Most of them were on the back of being incessantly harassed by asshole gamers and dick-bag media pundits. All of whom seemed to make it their personal mission to make Fish pay for that "they suck" comment.

That said, will I defend Fish? Hell no. Not entirely, anyway. The guy can be pretty damn crass. There's no denying that.

However, I'm sure as hell not hopping on the hate train people like the OP seem hell-bent on pushing forward. The internet and gaming community at large have been far more cruel and "douche-y" than Fish has ever been.

That's pretty much it though, the guy is a massive tit and seeing him throw a huge hissy fit because someone else acted like a massive tit towards him is what many would call Just Desserts.

 

[RyQ_TMC]

I think the problem with Fish and his behaviour is that while he is really full of himself, he also tries to cultivate an "arrogant dickwad" persona. Then it bites him in the ass when he makes a genuinely arrogant statement and everyone latches on to his obvious attempts at humour as "proof that we should murder him!" Seriously, the amount of times people brought up his "I should be charging you $90" tweet in the recent threads is good evidence that, for all the escapists claiming genius-level IQ, normal distribution is just as applicable here as elsewhere.

He retired from the industry, or rather took his ball home and will probably be back in a few months/years. As long as he stays silent, all attempts at "proving he deserves all the shit we're flinging at him" amount to a lynch mob. The way he's being treated by the gaming community is disgusting. I was under the impression you're not supposed to kick people who are on the ground, but apparently that's only when the violence starts.

Hell, I haven't played nor do I have any interest in Fez, I only occasionally heard anything about Fish (usually in the context of "he's arrogant", true), and now I find myself defending this guy. I tend to stay on the sidelines of most big controversies around here, but I can't stand a witch hunt.

 

[Something Amyss]

They're idoits.

They're indie devs. Of COURSE they're idiots.

Are the recent Zeldas and Marios not too hand-holdy?

That was John Blow.

Phil Fish was the guy who said Japanese games sucked, and to "get with the times" and update their technology despite making retro titles specifically emulating dated technology.

Also, it is really ridiculous to pretend this is a Japan only problem, and bringing up an East v West thing in terms of hand-holding is just stupid. But he wasn't talking about Blow. Fish justifies only after the fact, after a bunch of other people talk and try and soften the blow. No pun intended.

It's almost like he was addressing the comments which were specific and unique to Blowfish.

Yeh, this.

They spoke their minds. If anyone can't handle that, that's their own issue... 'cause you should be able to handle a man with a job also having an opinion.

And Blowfish should be able to handle a man with a job also having an opinion. Funny how that comes right back to the major point people are making about Blowfish.

Don't start crying foul on the gaming community when it outs an asshole (god just saying gaming community makes me feel dirty), he's been stoking this fire and it's become exactly what he wants it to be: big enough for people like us to talk about him when he and his little game should be ignored.

Come on, it is totally unfair that people treat him like a contemptible douchebag just because he routinely acts like a contemptible douchebag! It's his right to speak his mind and free speech means total immunity from criticism!

Given the tone of this thread, I feel I should point out that was sarcasm. Too many people seem to actually believe it.

Well, the Japanese man's actual question was "What do you think about recent Japanese games?"

I won't claim he attacked the Japanese guy, but for the points above, Blowfish sounds really stupid and lacking in awareness of what he himself does. He's either trying to be controversial, or really has his head that far up his ass, and either way, it shows more than just this once.

A lot more.

 

[Something Amyss]

That's pretty much it though, the guy is a massive tit and seeing him throw a huge hissy fit because someone else acted like a massive tit towards him is what many would call Just Desserts.

Or, as the internet calls it, "a witch hunt."

I'm honestly amazed at this phenomena.

 

[Sexual Harassment Panda]

snip

You might be reading into things that you needn't.

I don't give a monkeys if people want to criticise Fish, he genuinely does seem like a bit of a tit... though I do dislike how shitty we all are to each other online, and would like for things to be less snarky in general.

My post was to say that the contents of this video aren't justification to be mad at him. He shared an opinion, and it was a valid opinion(if he sees it that way). I laugh at the attempt to use it to stir up righteous indignation.

 

[Something Amyss]

My post was to say that the contents of this video aren't justification to be mad at him.

Done so with a heaping helping of irony, given the scenario. Don't be surprised if people comment on it.

 

[Caiphus]

I won't claim he attacked the Japanese guy, but for the points above, Blowfish sounds really stupid and lacking in awareness of what he himself does. He's either trying to be controversial, or really has his head that far up his ass, and either way, it shows more than just this once.

A lot more.

I don't have a huge opinion on Phil Fish either way. I think getting riled up over him is a waste of time. He seems like a generally nasty person. The internet hate bandwagon can be tiring though. Jim Sterling covered this in his recent episode (which you may have watched). So I wouldn't entirely blame someone if they were prone to trying to fight fire with fire by flaming the trolls (although goodness knows that never works).

That said, being nasty at panels and, allegedly, lying to judges at indie dev competitions has nothing to do with responding to trolls. This particular video isn't that bad; it sounds like Phil was encouraged by the crowd for starters. It still showed a lack of empathy and tact on his part, which is exacerbated by his history of similarly stupid rhetoric. Not thoroughly worthy of internet hate, in my opinion, but what is? I can't even get worked up by EA these days.

In any case, whatever. The gaming community has lost one semi-decent game designer. I'm sure one will be along to replace him shortly, hopefully one that can manage himself publicly.

 

[Vivi22]

I think the problem isn't with the rationale behind what Fish is saying, it's how he says it, and his tendency to blur the subject of his sentences between Japanese games and Japanese People.

The video starts off with Fish saying Japanese games suck, which is fair enough, but he then starts talking about the people with quotes like "You people need to get with the times" and "You people need to design better Interfaces".

He talks about Japanese games sucking and then says what Japanese developers are doing wrong, and puts it bluntly. I'm really not seeing the issue there. He wasn't personally attacking this guy. He wasn't saying all Japanese people are idiots or anything, he was saying, quite clearly despite his generalizing about the Japanese gaming industry, that the industry over there has some big issues. Which they do.

I fail to see what is so bad about this video when he isn't actually attacking anyone and is basically just saying that Japanese developers, in general, are behind the curve now in video game design and development. Which they are, and pretty much anyone who follows the industry would readily admit.

Honestly, if I had been in his shoes, I probably would have opened up with "they suck" too, which leads into expounding on why they suck. Why is it a bad thing that someone decided not to tip toe around the obvious for fear of hurting anyone's feelings?

 

[Sexual Harassment Panda]

My post was to say that the contents of this video aren't justification to be mad at him.

Done so with a heaping helping of irony, given the scenario. Don't be surprised if people comment on it.

I must be missing the elephant sized heap of irony in the room. Can you point me at it?

Unless you think I have a stick in my ass about people having a stick in their ass, and that's the root of it? Let me assure everyone that I have no stick in my ass, and that as far as I'm concerned, you can have as many, or as wide a stick in your ass as you please. I just won't share in the experience with you.

 

[PatrickXD]

There was a language barrier issue, and the panel was asked what they think about the Japanese game industry, recently. They all answered honestly, and even Phil Fish - despite his initial play for laughs - continued to give some constructive advice with the Legend of Zelda comparison.
I see absolutely nothing wrong with this.
I think Phil Fish is a perfectly fine guy, and that everyone should go watch the latest Jimquisition. Having 'thick skin' can only go so far, and it is okay to be upset by people shitting on you.

 

[Canadamus Prime]

What? Sure he was rather blunt, but he made some rather valid points most of which I agree with. I fail to see the problem here. It's not like he verbally attacked and insulted the guy.

 

[Sunrider]

I expected, with all the "Don't be rude to other people"-circlejerk going on on these forums, more people would condemn his pathetic attempt at humour and then just call it a day instead of defending him.

 

[KOMega]

Wow that was.... actually not too bad.

I keep hearing about all this hate and backlash towards this Fish fella.
I finally watch the video and that was what it was all about? Really?

He just comes off as... some dude.
Not an asswipe, not a dickwad. Just... some dude. Who happens to design games, but just some random dude.

So he doesn't like japanese games. So what? I love japanese games, but I don't care what he says about them. I believe his comment was on recent japanese games too, not all.

What is this about bullying the guy by the way? He said that he thinks japanese games kinda suck. He then proceeded to explain why he thought that way afterwards when he was talking about zelda. Nowhere did he even talk about that guy specifically.

Man, internet witch hunts man... They scary.

 

[wulf3n]

He wasn't personally attacking this guy.

It turns out he was. Fish was attacking Japanese Games Developers, and the guy was a Game Developer who happens to be Japanese.

He wasn't saying all Japanese people are idiots or anything,

I never said he was, or that said quote is why people are upset.

basically just saying that Japanese developers, in general, are behind the curve now in video game design and development.

That's kind of the point. He's making a generalization based on nationality about issues that exist within the entire industry not just Japan.

Which they are, and pretty much anyone who follows the industry would readily admit.

No more or less than games made in the west.

 

[somonels]

I take the video, thread and endless campaigns against him as proof that people are just bitchy. He's a rude man, big fucking deal. Ask him an opinion and he gives it to you, unlike more publicly correct douches who sidestep the question or start off by saying how good those things are and how they admire them but lack in certain aspects.

That whole panel was a pretty decisive lot who knew what they didn't like about them, said it, and gave some reasoning for it. They kind of have to be this direct about these issues. They are in a position where they have very little power to improve the games industry so if they are asked they can't talk sideways about the issue.

It would be interesting to see what it would say if we would apply canine vocalization behaviour to such situations.

 

[CriticalMiss]

I've never heard of this "Fish" before, was it the guy in the glasses? If so what an asshole. Has he done kind of thing before? I require more information.

He made a game once. Then proclaimed himself the 'face of gaming'. He has awards so it must be true.

EDIT: And who the hell are those other people? They're idoits. I wish I didn't watch this I'm upset now. I hope you're happy OP.

I don't know them all but Johnathan Blow (creator of Braid) and at least one of the guys from Team Meat (who made Super Meat Boy etc) are there. They were people who starred in Indie Game: The Movie doing a Q&A session to promote the movie.

Who was the well spoken man sitting to the right of the lectern though? The one who looks suspiciously like Gabe from Penny Arcade.

That's J Blow, he made Braid. I wouldn't say he looks all that much like Gabe though.


I wouldn't say that this video really does a good job of highlighting Fish's poor attitude at times. He just gave his opinion on the state of Japanese development, most of the panel agree with him so I guess we have to call those guys pricks too.

 

[Shadow-Phoenix]

And so the great and pointless witch hunt of 2013 against one man continued with some effort to try to accomplish so little.

I will forever be amazed at how the community of gamers can be so cruel yet claim the one they are against is far worse when it's really not that way at all.

Yeah sure Fish has been known to be a bit of an asshat but come on it's hundreds if not thousands more vs one man who's had shit thrown at him over the years and you expect continued shit flinging is going to make him a better guy, no it actually does the complete opposite like an abused child that sees the world as a shit bleak place and only the bigger groups witch hunting have themselves to blame.

 

[xPixelatedx]

Take a good long look at this: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pD9P2uyx6fQ
If Fish hasn't tried to have it removed again before you look, that is.

This man flew thousands of miles to meet people he idolizes, he wants to be just like them. All he asked was what inspired them, and instead of answering the man he was humiliated and bullied. The hurt on this man's face

I have plenty of words, and none of them are pleasant.

But I can say that he has no place crying about being "abused" or "bullied" when he himself crushes people that look up to and respect him.

THANK YOU! I was actually going to make a post like yours (nearly word for word) today, but I've been having trouble keeping stable links for this video as it keeps getting taken down. It seems someone doesn't want their dirty laundry out in the open, especially when they are trying to look sympathetic in such a current public fiasco.

Someone in Jim's 'One Fish Two Fish' thread actually defended the video to me, saying "that's how he feels about japanese games, did you want him to lie?" clearly not understanding what the actual problem was. I am guessing this is above some people's head, given that anyone is defending Fish at all. That or some people have an actual social disorder (like Aspergers) preventing them from seeing whats wrong with the interactions in this video. So let me spell it out:
Doing what he did to a foreigner (who hardly understands English) is NOT OK. The japanese guy couldn't possibly defend himself in any way. Fish utterly disrespected him and his culture to his face, in front of a crowd of people while endless laughing echoed through the room. It was cowardly, to say the least. There a 100 more respectful ways he could have shared his disappointment with japanese gaming; this was the worse one. Fish outed himself as just the most vile type of person that day, happy to walk over anyone he sees as smaller then himself, especially if they cannot fight back in any way. He has no shame in doing it in front of a crowd, either, which suggest he has a social disorder as well.


Also take this into consideration: Had any random person in the crowd stood up (at any other game convention) and said those exact words to that same Japanese man, they would have been escorted out of that place for being disruptive and a racist troll. Fish isn't only vile, he's COWARDLY AS FUCK. He picked a fight he couldn't possible loose while holding a status that made him apparently immune to regular rules of etiquette. I'd like to see him fight with people who can actually fight back... oh wait, that happened. That's why he left.

He has had a problem with the game industry and gamers since day one, yeah, but I don't feel sorry for him because he's been starting shit since day one to. It always reinstates my faith in humanity to see someone like that get theirs in the end, especially knowing many people like that are usually so untouchable that no justice ever finds them.