Best "Villains in Name Only"?
- Thread starter Relish in Chaos
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I'd argue that the Big Bad Wolf could be considered as an anti-villain. If you consider the moral framework behind the Brothers Grimm and their tales, you get the idea that the wolf becomes a metaphor for the stranger, the unknown guy with the creepy grin and the tempting offer of a ride back home. That's really the first-degree interpretation the fairy tale itself allows.
Dig deeper, however, and you realize that a wolf is a goddamned wolf. If he's stalking Little Red Riding Hood, the easiest answer available would be that he's obeying his instincts and that, driven by a lack of more easily available preys in the vicinity, he has to stick with a human child for sustenance. Wolves don't typically hound or hunt humans unless they're desperate for food; which this one wolf probably was. It doesn't make him evil or reprehensible, it makes just another predator out of him.
Then there's the Tex Avery version... The first half of the short doesn't so much establish him as a potential sex offender as it does as a guy with self-control issues. More of a hedonist than a sadist, perhaps, and he meets his match in Granny's character. Poor lady seems to have bluer balls than even he will ever have.
Ultimately, his own lust defeats him and drives him to suicide. Because he's more of an archetype and less of a character, however, his ghost repeats the pattern. There's something that's comically tragic in how he's unable or unwilling to learn from his mistakes and to consider that any woman who puts herself up for display like Red Hot Riding Hood does tends to come with a huge, tangled mess of strings attached.
Avery more or less took a figure that's typically portrayed as a one-note antagonist and turned him around into a comical, if pitiable antihero.
Dig deeper, however, and you realize that a wolf is a goddamned wolf. If he's stalking Little Red Riding Hood, the easiest answer available would be that he's obeying his instincts and that, driven by a lack of more easily available preys in the vicinity, he has to stick with a human child for sustenance. Wolves don't typically hound or hunt humans unless they're desperate for food; which this one wolf probably was. It doesn't make him evil or reprehensible, it makes just another predator out of him.
Then there's the Tex Avery version... The first half of the short doesn't so much establish him as a potential sex offender as it does as a guy with self-control issues. More of a hedonist than a sadist, perhaps, and he meets his match in Granny's character. Poor lady seems to have bluer balls than even he will ever have.
Ultimately, his own lust defeats him and drives him to suicide. Because he's more of an archetype and less of a character, however, his ghost repeats the pattern. There's something that's comically tragic in how he's unable or unwilling to learn from his mistakes and to consider that any woman who puts herself up for display like Red Hot Riding Hood does tends to come with a huge, tangled mess of strings attached.
Avery more or less took a figure that's typically portrayed as a one-note antagonist and turned him around into a comical, if pitiable antihero.
I'd argue against her love of Joffery, as I think that her unconditional support and "nurturing" is exactly what turned him into such a turbo-dick. A good mother would guide their son away from such cruelty, not say "You're the king, you're always right."Thunderous Cacophony said:
As for the "woman in a man's world" part, I'd say that she manages to be less sympathetic than a lot of the male villains, who include torture and and destruction in their daily schedules. Rather than acting as a woman who needs to use every advantage she has to stay ahead of the men trying to put her "in her place," she goes ballistic and assumes that anything short of groveling and ass-kissing means treason.
The fact that she's a mother who supposedly wants to defend her children actually bothers me more than if she were simply uncaring, as that means she is literally incapable of understanding that she puts her children at risk with every boneheaded political move she makes.
Generally the entirety of A Song o...- fuck it, I'll call it Game of Thrones, because it sounds better - doesn't have a villain to begin with. There's douchebags aplenty, but none of them can be seen as "the antagonist", mostly as they're all different people trying to get along in a hostile world. One man's terrorist is another man's freedom fighter.Denamic said:
OT: The nurse in One Flew Over the Cuckoo's nest. She might've been an absolute twit, but her only crime is running a mental hospital.
Protagonist =\= HeroABLb0y said:
Antagonist =\= Villain
Light is the villain and even if he wanted to create a "better" place, a world like this today still beats a world controled by a power hungry dictator who can kill people at will and belives itself a god.
Abandon4093 said:
Oh man you're right we better inform all those millions of people that you've just solved their relgious problem for them =D
Seriously dude, you cannot just contradict the freakin' Buddha without even presenting an argument as if there's no way what you say cannot be right
Kurtz from Heart of Darkness is the classic. If you read a brief summary of the story he might come off as a villain, if you read the story he's not a villain at all, just a broken man.
He's a brutal dictator, but only because the land around him is so brutal. He is more honest than the Westerners who claim that they are civilizing Africa.
He's a brutal dictator, but only because the land around him is so brutal. He is more honest than the Westerners who claim that they are civilizing Africa.
If one loosely defines an antihero as "an evil person who does good things" (if for the wrong reasons), I guess to define an "anti-villain" would be "a good person who does evil things". They would have many of the characteristics traditionally associated with a noble hero...likely a sense of honour, belief in justice, loyalty and the greater good, but they would do wrong. Either they fell from grace or have a twisted sense of right and wrong.
I guess an anti-villain would be Lawful Evil then, directly opposite Lawful Good (traditional heroes). Chaotic Good and Chaotic Evil would be the domain of anti-heroes and traditional villains respectively.
By that definition, I would say Magneto qualifies as an anti-villain, as would Darth Vader, Vin Diesel in Fast & Furious franchise, anyone who is "just following orders" to do wrong, Corvo in Dishonored, "honourable thieves", assassins with a strict code, etc. I think Dexter *might* also come under this heading then, but can't decide.
I guess an anti-villain would be Lawful Evil then, directly opposite Lawful Good (traditional heroes). Chaotic Good and Chaotic Evil would be the domain of anti-heroes and traditional villains respectively.
By that definition, I would say Magneto qualifies as an anti-villain, as would Darth Vader, Vin Diesel in Fast & Furious franchise, anyone who is "just following orders" to do wrong, Corvo in Dishonored, "honourable thieves", assassins with a strict code, etc. I think Dexter *might* also come under this heading then, but can't decide.
I'm very partial to Caesar in Fallout New Vegas. Pretty much everything evil about the Legion can not just be justified but actually constructed into a positive.
The rampant misogynyn actually keeps the women and children better protected than equal rights ever would, because anyone intent on harming them would need to fight their way through entire encampments of soldiers just to get to them.
The slavery keeps everyone busy and fed, there's almost no crime within Legion territory since everyone has work, shelter and a steady supply of food. And since slaves aren't just seen as more mouths to feed, but rather a valuable commodity many of them actually lead better, safer lives than most tribals and vagrants in the wasteland.
The brutal fascist warmachine seems pretty bad at first, but it's brilliantly designed to weed itself out. They're not allowed to use modern medicine and encourage melee combat with primitive weapon over guns. It's a military doctrine specifically made to kill its own most fanatic and devout followers so that eventually only the most sensible and levelheaded Legionairies will be left in charge after Caesar's death to ensure that the Legion will some day, after they're done fighting and conquering, be able to reinvent itself, ot at least gradually evolve into a society more fit for longterm sustainability.
The rampant misogynyn actually keeps the women and children better protected than equal rights ever would, because anyone intent on harming them would need to fight their way through entire encampments of soldiers just to get to them.
The slavery keeps everyone busy and fed, there's almost no crime within Legion territory since everyone has work, shelter and a steady supply of food. And since slaves aren't just seen as more mouths to feed, but rather a valuable commodity many of them actually lead better, safer lives than most tribals and vagrants in the wasteland.
The brutal fascist warmachine seems pretty bad at first, but it's brilliantly designed to weed itself out. They're not allowed to use modern medicine and encourage melee combat with primitive weapon over guns. It's a military doctrine specifically made to kill its own most fanatic and devout followers so that eventually only the most sensible and levelheaded Legionairies will be left in charge after Caesar's death to ensure that the Legion will some day, after they're done fighting and conquering, be able to reinvent itself, ot at least gradually evolve into a society more fit for longterm sustainability.
There is no response to anti-intellectualism because any argument would be intellectual. But the world of thought is fascinating that can expand every scope of your life and bring new fundamental ways of doing things, it's brought the enlightenment, the industrial age, the internet age, we've changed how we think of ourselves and think of the world around us. It can be hard but I don't believe it's worth just shutting down like that and doubling up on your belief, we're all about change and discussionAbandon4093 said:
Vader is not an anti villain, from the end of 3 til the end of 6 he is wholehearted evil he is a straight up villain who resigns villiany at the end.Mordekaien said:
Yes it is! Thinking about the cause and affects of our emotion is thinking and that is intellectual. If you are right there is a reason and we can find that reason and discuss it, there is never time in anything where saying something is so but refusing to seek and discuss reasons can be anything but anti-intellectualismAbandon4093 said:
It's the works of humanism, our greatest philosopher and the Buddha. These are what we define as intellectual people doing intellectual things
EDIT: I mean this is a question that has been discussed by our finest minds for thousands of years,
look at Stoicisim
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Stoicism
What gets me is this is the conclusion that millions of people have come to and tried to live their life according to this principal and you're response is 'nah mate. Don't be stupid.' There isn't a reason. They're just wrong. If you;re not providing arguments then all you have is a belief
Nonsense, he left Tuco with a sack full of gold and free on his feet he could easily break his binds but only after Blondie was long gone.GunsmithKitten said:
If Blondie wanted to kill him, he would have killed him.
"abducting one member's family"
lawful arrest.
"holding them at gunpoint"
Never happened.
"not even wanting to risk your political campaign by directly hunting them down one by one"
Makes ZERO SENSE. It would be a heroic campaign point to rid society of such out-of-control murderers.
They brought Marston in because they thought he was the only one who COULD bring them in.
"instead using and killing innocent people by having an elaborate scheme where one member is railroaded into killing his friends."
Except they never said that I had to kill them. Just bring them to justice AND I DID! I brought in Javier alive, I didn't kill Williamson but someone else killed him and I couldn't stop that and Dutch killed himself to spite giving him every opportunity to come quietly.
"How many people had to die because Ross wanted to play this little chess game of having John do all the dirty work?"
Probably a hell of alot less if Marston's original plan of talking his old friends down had worked. He tried with all of them. He never had to kill unless he had to and that's the way I played it and the game expected you to play it.
What is so evil about reasoning with a criminal to give themselves up? And then to be taken in by their most trusted friend?
"Williamson's boys got to have the run of New Austin and it took a herculean effort to take him down. "
Marston as SENT BY ROSS totally cleared out the Williamson gang from their stronghold. Probably beyond his remit as he was sent there to talk them down.
"the logic of this plan aside from making a politician look good? "
What fuckign politician?!?! This doesn't make him look like anything, he has nothing to do with events! We never see him. I remember seeing Dutch take a woman hostage, use her as a human shield then shoot her in the back of the head anyway because somehow THAT is "sticking it to the man".
"What stopped Ross from simply hunting down each member of the gang one by one?"
Mexico. US would involve itself in the Mexican civil war but that was no certainty in 1911. Also, Marston never updated Ross that the rest of the gang was in Mexico, probably because he knew his abduction spiel was BS, that his wife was lawfully imprisoned and only by HE HIMSELF bringing them in could he earn a pardon for his wife and prevent his son being sent to an orphanage or raised by other parents.
Ross probably thought one could do it with less people getting killed than sending in the Army. Though in the end after John Marson failed he had no choice.
At least they TRIED the subtle approach. They TRIED to reason with him. They TRIED to bring them in quietly. bringing in the head guy quietly the gang might just fracture and cease to be a problem.
