Beware the Watchmen
- Thread starter Steve Butts
- Start date
But that quote is utter bullshit. Intelligence is extremely difficult to quantify, for one thing, and there's no be all and end all definition. If Moore is a great writer but complete shite at maths and, ahem, interpersonal relationships, how do we define his intelligence? Where does he fall on the spectrum of intelligence? Second, from all accounts Moore has had little formal education, so claims that he's "better educated" are in direct opposition to his biographical details and sounds like it's coming from someone who's spouting of a completely uninformed opinion.Kaulen Fuhs said:
Here's a partial quote from the Alan Moore wikipedia page: 'Subsequently disliking school and having "no interest in academic study"... ' Does that sound like a man who's better educated than... well, whoever the dickhole of a commenter is encompassing in his blanket statement of comic readers?
Another quote from a fan site bio: 'He was expelled from a conservative secondary school and was not accepted at any other school. In 1971, Moore was unemployed, with no job qualifications whatsoever.'
Why would you immediately believe unsubstantiated claims from an unknown internet commenter, without doing some research on your own?
I'll not deny that Alan Moore is intelligent and a talented writer, but he's also rude, opinionated, condescending, arrogant and so full of his own fucking self that he can't see past his own sizeable ego. True, he can think anything he wants is a shit idea, but that's just an opinion. Unfortunately for Alan Moore his opinion on Before Watchmen is just that, an opinion and until we see the finished comics they can't be fairly judged.
Is Before Watchmen just a cash in? Yes and no. Obviously DC wants to make money off of characters they own, but with Watchmen still relevant and popular decades after it's original publication, it's worth exploring those characters if for no other reason than pure entertainment.
I don't care. I'll read them, probably like them, probably have a lot to complain about regardless. Mostly I think this is LOL-ARIOUS because of how Moore will react. Honestly, he is up there with Tarantino as guys who I hate to love. The guys who every time I read or watch something of theirs and like it, it pisses me off.
Off the top of my head, I can only think of two "prequel" areas that fit the following criteria:
- not already explored in-depth in Watchmen itself
- possibly interesting enough to be worth more than the mention it got in Watchmen
The two areas in question?
1 - Ozymandias mentioned having a direct confrontation with the Comedian at some point in which the Comedian tried to kill him, on the excuse that it was an accident, a case of "mistaken identity" I believe was the reasoning used. The details around that specific conflict might be worth fleshing out; hard to say without knowing more about what they were doing.
2 - The period of time surrounding Rorschach's becoming Rorschach. The specific trigger for this change is covered in great detail in Watchmen in Rorschach's psych eval., but there's nothing around it. I think I'd be curious enough to read a brief prequel covering a period of time from, say, two or three weeks prior to that incident up to two or three weeks following that incident. Some stretch of time to observe the speed at which he transformed from pre-Rorschach "Rorschach" to the real thing and how his peers - Nite Owl in particular, obviously - responded to his dramatic personality shift. We basically just get to see a snippet of "before" Rorschach in one of the flashbacks, then everything else is way, way after, when everyone has already come to terms with who he has become, as much as they are able.
In shorter terms, I'm interested in seeing how Nite Owl and Rorschach got along in the days immediately following his change as compared with how they worked together before that. I can imagine it, and maybe my imagination is better than what a prequel would produce, but I'm curious all the same.
- not already explored in-depth in Watchmen itself
- possibly interesting enough to be worth more than the mention it got in Watchmen
The two areas in question?
1 - Ozymandias mentioned having a direct confrontation with the Comedian at some point in which the Comedian tried to kill him, on the excuse that it was an accident, a case of "mistaken identity" I believe was the reasoning used. The details around that specific conflict might be worth fleshing out; hard to say without knowing more about what they were doing.
2 - The period of time surrounding Rorschach's becoming Rorschach. The specific trigger for this change is covered in great detail in Watchmen in Rorschach's psych eval., but there's nothing around it. I think I'd be curious enough to read a brief prequel covering a period of time from, say, two or three weeks prior to that incident up to two or three weeks following that incident. Some stretch of time to observe the speed at which he transformed from pre-Rorschach "Rorschach" to the real thing and how his peers - Nite Owl in particular, obviously - responded to his dramatic personality shift. We basically just get to see a snippet of "before" Rorschach in one of the flashbacks, then everything else is way, way after, when everyone has already come to terms with who he has become, as much as they are able.
In shorter terms, I'm interested in seeing how Nite Owl and Rorschach got along in the days immediately following his change as compared with how they worked together before that. I can imagine it, and maybe my imagination is better than what a prequel would produce, but I'm curious all the same.
I will not be as kind to them. It's an objectively stupid idea. I don't have the quote in front of me, but part of the announcement said something to the effect of 'shining lights on the less explored parts of the story'. Well guess what, smuht guy, no lights were shone on those parts deliberately. There's this thing called 'ambiguity' that means you sometimes don't have to say everything that happens, and sometimes you leave it to the audience to come up with their own interpretations. You might as well decide to write a prequel that explains everything that happens in Finnegan's Wake.
...Is this a reference to how someone wrote an 'unofficial' sequel to Dom Quixote when it came after? And then Cervantes had one of the characters in the fake sequel show up in the real sequel and talk about how much the 'real' Quixote and Sancho were better than the fakes he had met? And then he killed off Quixote at the end so no one could write any more sequels?Austin Mcgough said:
I understand that it is some sort of Internet rule to automatically hate things in general when you find out about it, then to ignore it when your suspicions were proven wrong, but it stopped being cute when Geek culture was proven wrong about Toby Macguire being Peter Parker.
Because I am not in the "Alan Moore is the Graetest Comic book artist of all time" mindset and I do not like the Watchmen at all, I am going to wait and see about these prequels. I'll read a trade when it is bundled up, then decide how I feel about them.
To save time, Alan Moore made some groundbreaking stuff in the early 80s and everything he made after his ego inflated is terrible. That includes everything he made from the 90s to today.
Because I am not in the "Alan Moore is the Graetest Comic book artist of all time" mindset and I do not like the Watchmen at all, I am going to wait and see about these prequels. I'll read a trade when it is bundled up, then decide how I feel about them.
To save time, Alan Moore made some groundbreaking stuff in the early 80s and everything he made after his ego inflated is terrible. That includes everything he made from the 90s to today.
Agreed I think some of the stuff like Ozimandas' journey of discovery or the Comedian's WW2 military service would be interesting to see the events that forged them.Shjade said:
Cut and paste the part where Rorschach talks to the jail shrink, and I would buy it again. As far as I'm concerned, that's the only way the prequels will ever work.
What I've noticed is that prequels either use everything that happens later, and come off more as an homage, or they bend the truth, and create something that turns fan rage up to toxic levels.
No one should have talked about Halo's Forerunners
No one should have talked about midi-chlorians
And no one should take Alan Moore's work and bend it for money.
Make new stories, people. It's harder, I know, but the only thing you'll get from copying other people is hate mail.
Which makes me wonder if it's worth it to make a Halo-themed graphic novel about the cultural stagnation of the Snagheili during the end of the war. I
What I've noticed is that prequels either use everything that happens later, and come off more as an homage, or they bend the truth, and create something that turns fan rage up to toxic levels.
No one should have talked about Halo's Forerunners
No one should have talked about midi-chlorians
And no one should take Alan Moore's work and bend it for money.
Make new stories, people. It's harder, I know, but the only thing you'll get from copying other people is hate mail.
Which makes me wonder if it's worth it to make a Halo-themed graphic novel about the cultural stagnation of the Snagheili during the end of the war. I
J. Michael Straczynski? I've never been a fan of the Watchmen (It's just not my thing, nothing against it personally) but Straczynski is a goddamn genius. B5 is one of my favorite series of all time.
Personally I'm very conflicted about this whole "Before Watchmen" thing. On one hand it is a very very VERY obvious attempt for DC to increase sales numbers now that there "New 52" reboot is no longer the center of attention.
On the other there is some serious talent behind this and I'd be lying if I said I'd never thought about an expanded Watchmen universe.
Having said that DC would have to be complete morons to release anything Watchmen related that wasn't at-least A minus quality or better.
Watchmen holds a very special place in the hearts of comic readers, For me it was the graphic novel that broke the hold that manga had on me in High School and got me back into American comics. Its the first graphic novel my younger brother read when he started getting into comics.
Everyone I've ever asked will tell a similar story.
I guess what I'm saying is that I will read that Before Watchmen stories but unless they are something truly special I won't be counting them in my own personal canon.
Edit:
I kind of Agree, Alan Moore is one of if not the best writer in the medium. Even when he's writing Lovecraftian Fish Rape Porn, its still good. Hell everything I have every read by him has made me re-think the given subject (Watchmen:Comics, LXG:Classic Literature, V for Vendetta:Anarchy and Fascism, Neonomicon: H.P. Lovecraft)
Having said that the man can be extremely immature. I can see him not wanting to return to Watchmen Now, But to condemn the project entirely as he's done is just wrong, especially when he's gone on record stating that back when Watchmen first came out HE WANTED TO DO THE SAME THING, but DC wasn't interested at the time.
On the other there is some serious talent behind this and I'd be lying if I said I'd never thought about an expanded Watchmen universe.
Having said that DC would have to be complete morons to release anything Watchmen related that wasn't at-least A minus quality or better.
Watchmen holds a very special place in the hearts of comic readers, For me it was the graphic novel that broke the hold that manga had on me in High School and got me back into American comics. Its the first graphic novel my younger brother read when he started getting into comics.
Everyone I've ever asked will tell a similar story.
I guess what I'm saying is that I will read that Before Watchmen stories but unless they are something truly special I won't be counting them in my own personal canon.
Edit:
Bucht said:
I kind of Agree, Alan Moore is one of if not the best writer in the medium. Even when he's writing Lovecraftian Fish Rape Porn, its still good. Hell everything I have every read by him has made me re-think the given subject (Watchmen:Comics, LXG:Classic Literature, V for Vendetta:Anarchy and Fascism, Neonomicon: H.P. Lovecraft)
Having said that the man can be extremely immature. I can see him not wanting to return to Watchmen Now, But to condemn the project entirely as he's done is just wrong, especially when he's gone on record stating that back when Watchmen first came out HE WANTED TO DO THE SAME THING, but DC wasn't interested at the time.
Actually I would probably read that, but I'm weird that way.Daaaah Whoosh said:
As far as Watchmen goes, I'm always one to accept the possibility that projects like this can turn out to be good despite the odds. However that doesn't mean that it should have happened in the first place. If they're good I won't mind that they exist, but I'm not really sure if anyone should have bothered at all.
In any case, I actually liked the movie (Ultimate cut) more then the book anyways. So chances are my opinion doesn't line up with most of the other fans here.
Actually he fought in both (and possibly but not confirmed Korea). In the book he left the Minutemen to fight in WW2 where from the picture in the book, he wore his later costume of leather with the patriotic pauldrons. In the Bob Dylan intro there was supposedly going to be a still of him single-handedly raising the flag on Iwo Jima.ANImaniac89 said:
Fair enough, its been a while since I've read Watchmen in its entirety. I think I might re-read it again in preparation of Before WatchmenWolfThomas said:
My general thoughts on the issue have been transcribed!
OT: With all due seriousness though, while I am very nervous about these comics, they could still be done right. But regardless of the quality, I'm gonna gush fanboyishly over Rorschach.
[small]I have far too much love for that psychopath.[/small]
[small]I have far too much love for that psychopath.[/small]
Maybe it's just me being a cynical prude, but I think Watchmen is overrated. The dialogue is obtrusive, there's a pointless subplot about a kid reading a comic book, and its all done in that bleak Cold War nihilistic extremism that Alan Moore just adores for some reason, a tale of warning that not only never came to pass, but is looking less and less believable as time goes on, even in the face of modern threats and general human dickishness.
Yeah, Rorschach had some pretty bad ass things to say, but to lift up a comic book based on a few schizo one-liners doesn't make a comic book some literary treasure. It makes it a tired internet meme. Maybe someday they'll make it a standard in high school English classes but that will be a poor day for the language and literature in general.
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Yeah, Rorschach had some pretty bad ass things to say, but to lift up a comic book based on a few schizo one-liners doesn't make a comic book some literary treasure. It makes it a tired internet meme. Maybe someday they'll make it a standard in high school English classes but that will be a poor day for the language and literature in general.
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