Biden still locks kids in cages

Buyetyen

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No, that is not how this works. You made a claim about what was normal. I asked you to justify it with numbers, and now I'm being asked to justify the request?
CBP hasn't released stats on abuses or uses of force in 2 years and you're demanding I see that as evidence of heroism. Doesn't work that way. With all the abuses we've heard about, I have zero reason to believe Border Patrol are the good guys they so desperately want us to believe they are. They are no more entitled to my trust than you are entitled to my agreement.

No. You all want to turn it back on me because you know the numbers dont support you, and you intend to attack the messenger if I bring them, so no.
Well maybe we would have a more positive impression of you if you weren't constantly talking bullshit. Also, you're not the messenger. More accurately, you're the guy repeating propaganda almost verbatim and getting offended that it's not working.

And just because I know it bothers you when people say this: All cops are bastards.
 
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Seanchaidh

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No, that is not how this works. You made a claim about what was normal. I asked you to justify it with numbers, and now I'm being asked to justify the request? No. You all want to turn it back on me because you know the numbers dont support you, and you intend to attack the messenger if I bring them, so no. You can justify your claim of what is normal with something more than "ACAB", which is going to require acknowledging all the good done, or you can just not respond.

ACAB
 

tstorm823

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CBP hasn't released stats on abuses or uses of force in 2 years and you're demanding I see that as evidence of heroism. Doesn't work that way. With all the abuses we've heard about, I have zero reason to believe Border Patrol are the good guys they so desperately want us to believe they are. They are no more entitled to my trust than you are entitled to my agreement.

Well maybe we would have a more positive impression of you if you weren't constantly talking bullshit. Also, you're not the messenger. More accurately, you're the guy repeating propaganda almost verbatim and getting offended that it's not working.

And just because I know it bothers you when people say this: All cops are bastards.
You shouldn't be saying things just to bother me, but it's not just saying a thing that bothers me. Its believing it to be an argument. And like, if all you intend to do is disagree and not actually argue the case, I'm not going to be bothered, but I dont know you'd make a post just for that.

Stats arent always up to date. That's the case as often as not when researching. I gave you third party news sources of lives actually saved by CBP. You cant say you see no reason to see them as good guys. You have seen reasons. If you see what they do and are unconvinced, so be it, but you need to be willing to see it first.
 

Buyetyen

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You shouldn't be saying things just to bother me, but it's not just saying a thing that bothers me. Its believing it to be an argument. And like, if all you intend to do is disagree and not actually argue the case, I'm not going to be bothered, but I dont know you'd make a post just for that.

]Stats arent always up to date. That's the case as often as not when researching. I gave you third party news sources of lives actually saved by CBP. You cant say you see no reason to see them as good guys. You have seen reasons. If you see what they do and are unconvinced, so be it, but you need to be willing to see it first.
I'm sorry, can you take that jackboot out of your mouth? I can't understand what you're saying through it.

You gave me a couple of anecdotes and expect me to believe that totally cancels out the rapes, murders, family separation, and sabotaging of water stations in the desert among other human rights violations. You may be too much of a coward to look at this shit, but the rest of us aren't. CBP have no credibility. You say we refuse to see your side, but you're the one who looks the the other way while these abuses take place.
 
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tstorm823

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I'm sorry, can you take that jackboot out of your mouth? I can't understand what you're saying through it.

You gave me a couple of anecdotes and expect me to believe that totally cancels out the rapes, murders, family separation, and sabotaging of water stations in the desert among other human rights violations. You may be too much of a coward to look at this shit, but the rest of us aren't. CBP have no credibility. You say we refuse to see your side, but you're the one who looks the the other way while these abuses take place.
I acknowledged and compared the good and the bad done. You're refusing to acknowledge the good, and taking for granted anything negative. Someone else mentions that report by an explicitly anti border patrol group, and suddenly you're making that argument without consideration of whether it is true. Did you know, they accused border patrol based mostly on the claim only CBP had regular access to the sites; this leads to the Ace Attorney "Objection" moment, where they're deliberately placing the resources in places where migrants cross on purpose, and those routes arent used by just refugees, there are smugglers and coyotes as well. "We put water in places where people sneak past border patrol, so obviously border patrol destroyed it" is not honest logic. They do claim they had footage, but I dont actually see that in the report.
 

Silvanus

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They do claim they had footage, but I dont actually see that in the report.
There's several relevant videos on No More Deaths' Youtube channel here. There's footage of agents casually destroying water drops, blankets, & other supplies in the desert; there's also data analysis (with citation) in the report indicating that hundreds of water drops (3,000+ gallons) were destroyed. Yeah, that's not coyotes.
 
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tstorm823

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There's several relevant videos on No More Deaths' Youtube channel here. There's footage of agents casually destroying water drops, blankets, & other supplies in the desert; there's also data analysis (with citation) in the report indicating that hundreds of water drops (3,000+ gallons) were destroyed. Yeah, that's not coyotes.
Thank you for linking that for me. There's one video of unidentified people kicking water jugs, and another of one picking up a bag, in approximately the same spot. And that's justification for "therefore they did that thousands of times". Data analysis is not going to help that assessment. There's a glaring logical flaw, when they put supplies in places that they and people crossing from Mexico have access to, but then argue that Border Patrol are the only ones with regular access. Data analysis of false assumptions leads to false conclusions.
lol, no you didn't. This whole time you've been acting like it doesn't count because reasons.
things I said said:
"They save the refugees you're poorly advocating for at orders of magnitude over the number of complaints you're upset about."

"Bad people get into positions that people consider heroes."

"Wanna run the stats on complaints versus rescues for yourself and figure out what is normal? "
What part of this indicates to you that I am denying any abuse has occurred? Yes, there are complaints. I'm not questioning the credibility of complaints (though I do question the credibility of groups that are explicitly anti-border patrol), I acknowledge that there are accusations of abuse, and proven cases of abuse, but that doesn't come anywhere near making it a mistake to have border patrol. The good done far outweighs the abuse, particularly when the people who are doing bad things still exist, and would just suck somewhere else.
 

Buyetyen

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What part of this indicates to you that I am denying any abuse has occurred?
No, I said that you've been pretending it doesn't count, it's all balanced out or you just plain look away.

The good done far outweighs the abuse
See, you're proving my point. You're looking the other way.
 

Silvanus

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Thank you for linking that for me. There's one video of unidentified people kicking water jugs, and another of one picking up a bag, in approximately the same spot. And that's justification for "therefore they did that thousands of times". Data analysis is not going to help that assessment. There's a glaring logical flaw, when they put supplies in places that they and people crossing from Mexico have access to, but then argue that Border Patrol are the only ones with regular access. Data analysis of false assumptions leads to false conclusions.
You can see the uniforms quite clearly, sporting the recognisable gold shield. It's also very visible in this video, in which the agent speaks directly to the hand-held camera, challenging the cameraman to admit leaving "trash" there.

Data analysis is, of course, only going to be able to look at the number of destroyed drops; it's not going to be able to actually attribute each one to a definite cause. But that's because that's impossible. What we do have are videos showing the culprits destroying several drop-sites, and we have a huge number of destructions in the same area, far beyond what would be expected of wildlife. It's safe to extrapolate that these aren't isolated incidents in that context.
 

tstorm823

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No, I said that you've been pretending it doesn't count, it's all balanced out or you just plain look away.

See, you're proving my point. You're looking the other way.
So, do you not think it's possible to acknowledge abuse and still find the job itself worth having? What is your opinion of teachers? If I say that teachers are a good thing for society, would you accuse me of looking the other way for teachers that assault children? Why are "the position is a good thing" and "some people in the position are bad" mutually exclusive in your mind.
It's safe to extrapolate that these aren't isolated incidents in that context.
To be clear, that's not what I meant by "coyotes". I was referring to smugglers who take people's money to get them to the US, and have a vested interest in it being difficult to get there without them.
 
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Buyetyen

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So, do you not think it's possible to acknowledge abuse and still find the job itself worth having?
In the case of CBP? No. It's so inherently corrupt we need to scrap it and start over with something new.

What is your opinion of teachers? If I say that teachers are a good thing for society, would you accuse me of looking the other way for teachers that assault children? Why are "the position is a good thing" and "some people in the position are bad" mutually exclusive in your mind.
That's a lovely distraction, but it does nothing to address the fact that you look away.

To be clear, that's not what I meant by "coyotes". I was referring to smugglers who take people's money to get them to the US, and have a vested interest in it being difficult to get there without them.
And now you're blaming other people for what we have evidence of the jackboots doing. Again, you look away. Whether you lack the conscience, the stomach, the courage or whatever, you look away. All those people hurt by Border Patrol? Fuck 'em, as far as you're concerned. It's a worthy price to pay in your eyes for never having to have an immigrant as your neighbor.
 

Silvanus

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To be clear, that's not what I meant by "coyotes". I was referring to smugglers who take people's money to get them to the US, and have a vested interest in it being difficult to get there without them.
Alright, but when we actually have several videos which show border officers destroying resource drops, how likely is it really that the majority of such incidents are actually perpetrated by smugglers? CBP is a far larger group, better organised and funded. CBP has video evidence pointing towards them. This isn't a reasonable thing to assume.
 

tstorm823

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Alright, but when we actually have several videos which show border officers destroying resource drops, how likely is it really that the majority of such incidents are actually perpetrated by smugglers? CBP is a far larger group, better organised and funded. CBP has video evidence pointing towards them. This isn't a reasonable thing to assume.
Here's the thing: CBP is the only group we're seeing videos of. They claim in their report that the supplies were vandalized by hunters, hikers, militia members, wildlife, and CBP. How do you suppose they know this? The same ways they know about CBP. And yet, for some reason, the group that explicitly opposes border control measures, that blames US border laws for funneling migrants into dangerous areas AND opposes patrolling those areas or building barriers, has presented only that which incriminates CBP. It's almost like they, you know, explicitly opposes border control measures. And they've made multiple reports detailing as such. And dedicated a youtube channel to their cause.

LIke, if a well-funded libertarian-minded think tank told you what their statistical analysis indicated about tax laws, would you even read it before forming confident conclusions about its validity? I wouldn't, I'd feel very confident in my assumptions about the biased backwards rationalization they'd be presenting. The same is true here. These are people with a political cause working purposefully to generate evidence that supports that cause. It is not reasonable to take them or their evidence seriously.
It's a worthy price to pay in your eyes for never having to have an immigrant as your neighbor.
There are no bonus points to be won in an argument for saying genuinely horrible things about the person you're arguing with.
 

Silvanus

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Here's the thing: CBP is the only group we're seeing videos of. They claim in their report that the supplies were vandalized by hunters, hikers, militia members, wildlife, and CBP. How do you suppose they know this? The same ways they know about CBP. And yet, for some reason, the group that explicitly opposes border control measures, that blames US border laws for funneling migrants into dangerous areas AND opposes patrolling those areas or building barriers, has presented only that which incriminates CBP. It's almost like they, you know, explicitly opposes border control measures. And they've made multiple reports detailing as such. And dedicated a youtube channel to their cause.
I don't really understand why you're framing this as if it's somehow underhanded. They're an advocacy group. So obviously they're going to present evidence specifically to back up their case, and it's not really relevant or in their remit to produce videos of wildlife and hunters doing dirty deeds as well. Their point is that CBP do destroy caches; not that they're exclusively responsible for every destroyed cache. That's why-- as you say, you're aware-- they acknowledge in their report that other causes exist.

LIke, if a well-funded libertarian-minded think tank told you what their statistical analysis indicated about tax laws, would you even read it before forming confident conclusions about its validity? I wouldn't, I'd feel very confident in my assumptions about the biased backwards rationalization they'd be presenting. The same is true here. These are people with a political cause working purposefully to generate evidence that supports that cause. It is not reasonable to take them or their evidence seriously.
It's a bit unseemly to compare a political think-tank to an advocacy group that provides humanitarian relief in the desert, but I digress.

If they provided a video showing uniformed members of a federal agency committing tax fraud, then it wouldn't matter who it came from, or whether other unrelated people also might have committed some of the tax fraud.
 
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tstorm823

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I don't really understand why you're framing this as if it's somehow underhanded. They're an advocacy group. So obviously they're going to present evidence specifically to back up their case, and it's not really relevant or in their remit to produce videos of wildlife and hunters doing dirty deeds as well. Their point is that CBP do destroy caches; not that they're exclusively responsible for every destroyed cache. That's why-- as you say, you're aware-- they acknowledge in their report that other causes exist.
Their point is that CBP is mostly responsible, with the general suggestion that it's a coordinated CBP effort, and their only goal is to make you believe that. Like, look at their twitter. You can scroll a really, really long way without finding a single post that isn't about opposition to border enforcement. I quit before I found one. You might imagine that a group dedicated to helping people might have some tweets about actually helping people. Let's compare to a related and connected group, Humane Borders. Unfortunately, they seem to have stopped much of their activity during the pandemic, but what's on there? Tweets about non-CBP people vandalizing water stations. Pictures of volunteers working. Actual refugee advocacy. "It's not really relevant or in their remit to produce videos of [non CBP] doing dirty deeds as well", but if you look at a group actually helping and advocating for migrants, it's right at the top. For No More Deaths, anything that isn't opposition to border enforcement is not in their remit. You should not trust them. They aren't an advocacy group for anyone, they advocate only opposition to policy.
 

Silvanus

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Their point is that CBP is mostly responsible, with the general suggestion that it's a coordinated CBP effort, and their only goal is to make you believe that. Like, look at their twitter. You can scroll a really, really long way without finding a single post that isn't about opposition to border enforcement. I quit before I found one. You might imagine that a group dedicated to helping people might have some tweets about actually helping people.
Because they're an advocacy group for a change in US policy. Obviously their communications are going to be about that. I honestly find this criticism utterly bizarre; it's like arguing that the suffragettes keep solely making pamphlets about opposition to voting law. "You might imagine that a group dedicated to improving society might have some pamphlets about other ways of improving society!"

Let's compare to a related and connected group, Humane Borders. Unfortunately, they seem to have stopped much of their activity during the pandemic, but what's on there? Tweets about non-CBP people vandalizing water stations. Pictures of volunteers working. Actual refugee advocacy. "It's not really relevant or in their remit to produce videos of [non CBP] doing dirty deeds as well", but if you look at a group actually helping and advocating for migrants, it's right at the top. For No More Deaths, anything that isn't opposition to border enforcement is not in their remit. You should not trust them. They aren't an advocacy group for anyone, they advocate only opposition to policy.
Maybe you should bring it up with their PR department. But since you're focused on criticising their twitter usage, and appear to be utterly unconcerned that videos have shown CBP agents destroying aid drops, I doubt you're their intended audience.
 
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