Biden team faced "tirade" at meeting with Chinese over America's poor human rights record in "Diplomatic humiliation"

tstorm823

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How the fuck do you write something this fucking heinous? A woman gets raped and to win internet points you fucking frame it as being because she and her assaulter are Mexican so you can Uno reverse card a criticism of prison guards onto an entire race? Jesus fucking Christ.
I didn't write any of that, so there's that. All I'm saying is "I know people who broke laws and got deported, so I can tell you first hand that Americans are the real criminals" isn't the argument that user wants it to be.
It's stunning how out-of-touch you can be with the rest of a room.
What in the world makes you think I care to match the rest of this room? All of the enjoyment I get from conversation in this space comes from how heainously disagreeable I find most of the opinions here. I'm not out of touch, I know what your opinions are, I'm just not going change my opinions to match you all. You can all be wrong while I'm right, I'm ok with that.
 

Revnak

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I didn't write any of that, so there's that. All I'm saying is "I know people who broke laws and got deported, so I can tell you first hand that Americans are the real criminals" isn't the argument that user wants it to be.
Arriving at ports of entry as a refugee isn’t fucking illegal and people who do that are the people at the facility you’re talking about. What the fuck are you on?
 

tstorm823

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Arriving at ports of entry as a refugee isn’t fucking illegal and people who do that are the people at the facility you’re talking about. What the fuck are you on?
People arriving at ports of entry as refugees are held by CBP. That is a separate agency from ICE with separate facilities.
Danth's Law: If you have to declare yourself the winner of an argument, then you aren't.
Didn't you just tell me to "take the L" in a different thread?
 

Revnak

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People arriving at ports of entry as refugees are held by CBP. That is a separate agency from ICE with separate facilities.
Hardly fucking universal and large numbers of their inmates were transferred in. Further, it’s not like the facilities for refugees are any different.

Edit: I’d started looking through the facility’s own website to see whether they held asylum seekers, but of course this is the US so of course I can’t find that info there. Luckily some non-profits have looked into this and of course a significant portion of those at these facilities are asylum seekers.
 
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Gergar12

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Yeah, I was super wrong. Give the vaccines to everyone, and anyone that wants them(I want to go much further than that, but even if I was a policymaker I couldn't). The semi-conductor shortages are annoying AF. Without enough semi-conductors, we have fewer PS5s, which means fewer games, and also fewer RTX graphics cards. Oh, and I don't want this disease to be a great filter where we die before reaching space travel and becoming a space-based empire due to disease mutations.

And if countries in the global south could build more semi-conductor factories, and send some aerospace engineers over to the US, that would be nice too.

This pandemic is driving me insane. No good open-world games, a few good animes, long Disney plus content droughts.

Yeah, I was very very wrong. We need to send as many RNA-based vaccines to their cities as quickly as possible. I have no idea why they are still exporting vaccines in India to other countries.
 

Gergar12

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Damn it 90% of advanced 5nm semiconductors are made in TSMC/a company in Taiwan, and 100% of them are in East Asia. If those get hit, bye-bye world economy.

Intel needs to step up its game vs Samsung, and TSMC.
 

Seanchaidh

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What in hell is the argument here? We should deny and cover-up malpractice and violence elsewhere if the US State Dept. could theoretically use it as a justification for something? Fuck no. Something being true, and deeply awful, is reason enough to bring attention to it. We don't need to be doing their PR for them as they carry out ethnic cleansing.
We also don't need to be doing the State Department's PR for it as it hypocritically pushes for sanctions and so on.

Scarcely. It's a pattern of brutal population control aimed at an ethnic minority. The camps are a part of that; the forced unnecessary surgeries are a part of that. The pattern amounts to genocide.
The point is that you're evaluating who is selected to be in the camps by considering your perception of the overall pattern and then saying that your evaluation of the camps justifies your perception of the overall pattern.
 
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Silvanus

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We also don't need to be doing the State Department's PR for it as it hypocritically pushes for sanctions and so on.
This is just an argument to ignore awful occurrences if it's politically inconvenient.

The point is that you're evaluating who is selected to be in the camps by considering your perception of the overall pattern and then saying that your evaluation of the camps justifies your perception of the overall pattern.
I'm evaluating who is selected to be in the camps because we roughly know the demography of people interned. What I'm not doing is making presumptions about their guilt, because there's no good reason to do so.

Then we have heaps of other evidence speaking to the overall pattern as well, such as testimony that the forced sterilisations are not directed merely at those who break the two-child policy, but are rather directed towards broad swathes of people of childbearing age.
 

Seanchaidh

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This is just an argument to ignore awful occurrences if it's politically inconvenient.
It's an argument not to think you're doing good work by repeating and defending narratives about other countries that are reported or possibly invented to hypocritically justify belligerence, an argument that I think is all the more important when much of the relevant information is on the other side of a language barrier and filtered through a media ecosystem which has not been entirely honest about targets of US wrath.

I'm evaluating who is selected to be in the camps because we roughly know the demography of people interned. What I'm not doing is making presumptions about their guilt, because there's no good reason to do so.
You're presuming the opposite of the rationale because you don't know whether it is true or false, but since your conclusion, that they are doing a genocide, is most consistent with "there is no rationale other than race/religion", you've chosen to decide that is the truth. So you've ended up using your conclusion as a premise in your argument for the conclusion. Or perhaps it would be slightly more accurate to say that you've used your conclusion (they're doing a genocide) as a premise for another conclusion (there is no rationale behind who is incarcerated other than race and religion) which you then use as a premise for your conclusion that they are doing a genocide.

Either of those arguments could be fine on their own, but using both together is circular; the logic is very messy, Silvanus, and in a thread where we're out of the blue calling out people for living in places that may or may not have voter ID, I don't think we should stand for that.

Then we have heaps of other evidence speaking to the overall pattern as well, such as testimony that the forced sterilisations are not directed merely at those who break the two-child policy, but are rather directed towards broad swathes of people of childbearing age.
Right, and what that is not is evidence about the composition of the groups interned in the camps or the method used for deciding who is imprisoned and who isn't.
 

Silvanus

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It's an argument not to think you're doing good work by repeating and defending narratives about other countries that are reported or possibly invented to hypocritically justify belligerence, an argument that I think is all the more important when much of the relevant information is on the other side of a language barrier and filtered through a media ecosystem which has not been entirely honest about targets of US wrath.
If you believe that survivor testimony is fabricated by the US to justify sanctions and war, just say so.

Nothing else-- a language barrier, a possibility that it could theoretically be used by the US State Dept-- is justification for stifling testimony or keeping quiet on atrocity.

You're presuming the opposite of the rationale because you don't know whether it is true or false, but since your conclusion, that they are doing a genocide, is most consistent with "there is no rationale other than race/religion", you've chosen to decide that is the truth. So you've ended up using your conclusion as a premise in your argument for the conclusion. Or perhaps it would be slightly more accurate to say that you've used your conclusion (they're doing a genocide) as a premise for another conclusion (there is no rationale behind who is incarcerated other than race and religion) which you then use as a premise for your conclusion that they are doing a genocide.
OK. So. We know what they have in common (the ethnic group & religion). We aren't aware of any other commonality. But you believe it would be more reasonable to assume that all prisoners are guilty of watching ISIS videos or what-have-you?

I'm not about to make defensive assumptions on behalf of people running concentration camps. I'll work with what we actually know.

Right, and what that is not is evidence about the composition of the groups interned in the camps or the method used for deciding who is imprisoned and who isn't.
You said, above, that my "evaluation of the camps justifies my perception of the overall pattern". The accusation of cyclical logic requires the two notions to be based solely on one another. It's perfectly relevant, then, to point out that my "perception of the overall pattern"-- a pattern of ethnic repression directed at Uighurs-- is borne out by a lot of other evidence as well.

You cannot criticise me for relying solely on the camps to justify the pattern, and then simultaneously dismiss anything that's unrelated to the camps.
 
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Seanchaidh

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If you believe that survivor testimony is fabricated by the US to justify sanctions and war, just say so.

Nothing else-- a language barrier, a possibility that it could theoretically be used by the US State Dept-- is justification for stifling testimony or keeping quiet on atrocity.
I don't know whether they are or not and neither do you. And stifling testimony is not the same thing as deciding not to be credulous.

OK. So. We know what they have in common (the ethnic group & religion). We aren't aware of any other commonality. But you believe it would be more reasonable to assume that all prisoners are guilty of watching ISIS videos or what-have-you?

I'm not about to make defensive assumptions on their behalf, without a shred of evidence. I'll work with what we actually know.
One hypothesis explains why there are many more Uyghurs not in camps than are in camps and why the CCP would be worried about reassuring its Uyghur students that are returning home rather than just arresting them and sending them to the camps. The other has to make various assumptions to explain those facts away. Also, you keep using the term 'guilt' when it isn't relevant.

You said, above, that my "evaluation of the camps justifies my perception of the overall pattern". The accusation of cyclical logic requires the two notions to be based solely on one another.
No. If you want to say that your argument does not depend on circular logic, that is one thing; perhaps the sterilizations are enough by themselves to come to your conclusion. But it definitely does employ circular logic if you include your evaluation of the concentration camps as a reason for thinking that genocide is going on while at the same time using your belief that there is a genocide going on to color your perception of the camps.
 

Silvanus

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OK, I think we've both said almost all that we can say on the matter.

If precisely the same details & testimonies were emerging concerning camps in America, and the State Dept cables said what the CCP cables did, you would be taking precisely the opposite perspective. I think you well know that, as well: you've been more than happy (and rightfully so) to place trust in survivor testimony for abuses committed by US forces.

Just as tstorm is happy to repeat the official line on allegations of abuses and crimes perpetrated by ICE, and dismiss or ignore the testimonies there, but wouldn't apply the same standard for (say) a Latin American country. It's much the same drill; standards compromised, or victims handwaved away, if it's inconvenient for a particular geopolitical narrative. It's dirty.

Believe what you want, I'm done on this particular seedy tangent.
 

Seanchaidh

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If precisely the same details & testimonies were emerging concerning camps in America, and the State Dept cables said what the CCP cables did, you would be taking precisely the opposite perspective.
Not necessarily.

I haven't disputed the veracity of the leaks at all, though I'd note that neither of us know Mandarin so we're taking the translations on faith. If such leaks had happened in the United States, CNN reporters would be telling us that authenticity is questionable and it might be illegal for plebs to look at them. Also that Russia and/or China are responsible.
 

tstorm823

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Just as tstorm is happy to repeat the official line...
I cannot for the life of me understand how you keep this up. I presented my arguments from the documents with the direct perspective of the victims. I at no point accused the victims of lying. What "official line" do you think I'm repeating? And then to compare me to the type of person who unironically posts links to places like Jacobin Magazine as sources of information. Give me some credit.
 

Seanchaidh

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I cannot for the life of me understand how you keep this up. I presented my arguments from the documents with the direct perspective of the victims. I at no point accused the victims of lying. What "official line" do you think I'm repeating? And then to compare me to the type of person who unironically posts links to places like Jacobin Magazine as sources of information. Give me some credit.
Did Jacobin Magazine lie about WMD in Iraq?
 

Seanchaidh

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Probably.

Edit: to be clear, I'm aware is didn't exist in 2002.
The New York Times lied about WMD in Iraq. As did other major media.

The New York Times (and other major US media) also regularly publishes trash like this

in which US meddling in a foreign country to fabricate a corruption case against a former president is celebrated.

Other trash like that is when they said that the fascist coup in Bolivia was an attempt to restore democracy. Oh, but you still probably believe that. lol
 

Seanchaidh

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American Client State attacks worship service for some reason. Moral™