Biden team faced "tirade" at meeting with Chinese over America's poor human rights record in "Diplomatic humiliation"

Satinavian

Elite Member
Legacy
Apr 5, 2020
865
155
48
Fascism on the other hand is also a failed system which can never work and attracts insane dictators. Its just far more obviously evil about it all. There's no draw to it other than a desire for power, to abuse others and justify it not with a concrete end goal but with the belief you and yours are inherently holy.
I won't say there is no draw to it other than desire for power. What it makes alluring is, at its core, supercharged tribalism. It oarts the world in "those that belong to us" and "everyone else", promotes all kind of intra-group cooperation and conformity inside the group and paints others as competitors.

But is is easy to recognize even the idealized fascist state as quite evil.
 
  • Like
Reactions: MrCalavera

Seanchaidh

Elite Member
Legacy
Apr 24, 2020
2,804
1,383
118
Country
United States of America
I mean, communism really is the worst humanity has to offer.
No, that would be chattel slavery, but I guess as a fellow American you might get confused.

Communism is a failed system that can never work and which attracts insane dictators.
Historical examples of governments that call themselves communist are manifestly capable of meeting the economic needs of society, often better than capitalist societies in similar positions. This would be more obvious if capitalist nations, including the most powerful nations on earth, were not determined to sabotage them at every opportunity with assassinations, the financing of fascist coups, and so on. Indeed, I'm guessing you'd be insane too if you had to deal with the various ways in which the CIA would try to either kill you or cause other problems.

Communism and fascism are similarly bad in their end results
utterly delusional
 

tstorm823

Elite Member
Legacy
Apr 24, 2020
2,934
380
88
Country
USA
Historical examples of governments that call themselves communist are manifestly capable of meeting the economic needs of society, often better than capitalist societies in similar positions.
You're deflecting to an argument between socialism and capitalism. If you want to defend communism, you're going to have to defend the whole thing. Some communist states have failed economically. All of them have failed governmentally. It always falls apart. There's always a dictator. People are always killed. The success or failure of the economies is not much more relevant than the success or failure of fascist economies.
 

Seanchaidh

Elite Member
Legacy
Apr 24, 2020
2,804
1,383
118
Country
United States of America
All of them have failed governmentally. It always falls apart. There's always a dictator. People are always killed. The success or failure of the economies is not much more relevant than the success or failure of fascist economies.
You say this speaking from a country that all but eliminated its indigenous population and has had a racial underclass for centuries.

if you want to speak with any intelligence whatosever about communism, then you need to accept that Leninist democratic centralism is very far from the only way to do it. And that's leaving aside whether what you're saying about the Soviet style of government is even true in the first place.

There's always a dictator. People are always killed.
Salvador Allende is a pretty easy counterexample. Well, unless you consider the CIA installing Augusto Pinochet as dictator to meet your criteria. :rolleyes:
 

Silvanus

Elite Member
Legacy
Apr 26, 2020
5,628
1,332
118
Country
United Kingdom
If it were "a lot", would it require repetition?
Depends on the stubborn willingness of the listener to ignore, ignore, ignore.


Who is trustworthy?
Reuters, generally. Certainly far more than bargain-basement blogs like Red Sails, or whatever random armchair commentator with zero personal experience is dismissing survivor testimony.

Or maybe I can just recognize when there is a media campaign to vilify an international rival and employ appropriate skepticism as a result-- especially when there is a language barrier that encloses much of the relevant information at least from my view.
Of course, your own position also exists within the narrative of a corporatist propaganda campaign. But that one's acceptable, because its not the US.

And I'm sure you would find the "language barrier" defence suitably laughable if we applied it to, say, the Spanish or Portuguese Empires. The idea that we're just "misunderstanding" what the survivors, escapees and refugees are telling us is risible nonsense. Imagine telling that to the victim of Spanish ethnic cleansing in South America; "We can't credit what you say is happening, because we just can't speak the language! Better to trust what His Imperial Majesty is reporting through the official channels-- all is well!"
 
  • Like
Reactions: CM156 and Hawki

Seanchaidh

Elite Member
Legacy
Apr 24, 2020
2,804
1,383
118
Country
United States of America
Reuters, generally.
Oh, this Reuters?


Certainly far more than bargain-basement blogs like Red Sails, or whatever random armchair commentator with zero personal experience is dismissing survivor testimony.
So, anecdotal evidence.

Of course, your own position also exists within the narrative of a corporatist propaganda campaign. But that one's acceptable, because its not the US.
Chinese propaganda is saying to suspend judgment..? In any case, yes, I would caution anyone to be much more skeptical when considering the propaganda they are swimming in. It's far easier to get away with dishonesty when you're also the source of conventional wisdom.
 
Last edited:

MrCalavera

Elite Member
Legacy
Apr 30, 2020
548
481
68
Country
Poland
I don't dispute any of your points, I'm just inclined to think it worse when the people committing all the same atrocities believe themselves to be moral leaders .
Since when don't fascist leaders believe there's higher morality to their actions?
Communism and fascism are similarly bad in their end results, but communism seduces good people into fighting for it.
"Good people" is such an useless, vague description. "Good People on both sides". You think none of the Wehrmacht soldiers could be at one point of their lives described as vague "good people"?
 
  • Like
Reactions: Seanchaidh

Silvanus

Elite Member
Legacy
Apr 26, 2020
5,628
1,332
118
Country
United Kingdom
Oh, this Reuters?
That's the one! Still one of the most reliable outlets out there for international news, certainly eclipsing cheap-ass blogs like Red Sails.

On a side-note, some of those FAIR criticisms are downright pathetic.

So, anecdotal evidence.
So, the same standard you're happy to accept for atrocities committed by powers you already dislike, like the coup government in Bolivia. You post on-the-ground accounts or direct testimony all the time, but now it's suddenly specious and worth dismissing out of hand.


Chinese propaganda is saying to suspend judgment..? In any case, yes, I would caution anyone to be much more skeptical when considering the propaganda they are swimming in. It's far easier to get away with dishonesty when you're also the source of conventional wisdom.
Chinese corporatist propaganda is saying "nothing to see here". And since you tend to post exclusively dismissals or denials... same wheelhouse.

"Suspending judgement" until what, anyway? It can't be until independent orgs have fully documented it, because independent reporting gets you interned and executed. It can't be until we have a pile of direct testimony, because we already do and you're just implying it's all fabricated. So... until what? Until the corporatist government reassures us again that its all fine?
 
  • Like
Reactions: CM156

Revnak

We must imagine Sisyphus horny
Legacy
May 25, 2020
2,706
2,693
118
Country
USA
If the United States had fought on the side of the Nazis against the Soviet Union, or even if after the war the UK and US had (successfully) gone ahead with Operation Unthinkable, it seems doubtful that we'd know much of anything about Auschwitz right now.
Choosing to ignore the truly insane argument this kicked off, you missed my point. Your denialism is identical to that of Holocaust deniers. It’s questioning specifics then deciding because the specifics sound implausible and there’s a reason for person x to lie, the entire thing’s a lie. Now, while I by no means view what China is doing is equatable to the Nazis, it’s much more similar to Anglo imperialism but with different ethics, your argument is more like that of Holocaust deniers.
 
  • Like
Reactions: CM156 and Silvanus

Seanchaidh

Elite Member
Legacy
Apr 24, 2020
2,804
1,383
118
Country
United States of America
Choosing to ignore the truly insane argument this kicked off, you missed my point. Your denialism is identical to that of Holocaust deniers. It’s questioning specifics then deciding because the specifics sound implausible and there’s a reason for person x to lie, the entire thing’s a lie. Now, while I by no means view what China is doing is equatable to the Nazis, it’s much more similar to Anglo imperialism but with different ethics, your argument is more like that of Holocaust deniers.
What sort of case for skepticism (of anything) could you not say this about?
 

CM156

Resident Reactionary
Legacy
May 6, 2020
607
400
68
Country
United States
Gender
White Male
Choosing to ignore the truly insane argument this kicked off, you missed my point. Your denialism is identical to that of Holocaust deniers. It’s questioning specifics then deciding because the specifics sound implausible and there’s a reason for person x to lie, the entire thing’s a lie. Now, while I by no means view what China is doing is equatable to the Nazis, it’s much more similar to Anglo imperialism but with different ethics, your argument is more like that of Holocaust deniers.
All atrocity/genocide denial is the same, whether we're talking about the Holocaust, Armenian Genocide, or what's currently going on in China.
Almost word for word with just a few specifics moved around.
It usually starts with saying it isn't happening. When that becomes an untenable position, it moves on to "it wasn't/isn't that bad" and when that becomes impossible, it's usually either a thinly veiled "they deserved it" or "the perpetrators were the real victims" or "the death counts are exaggerated for political reasons, so you shouldn't take it seriously"
 

Seanchaidh

Elite Member
Legacy
Apr 24, 2020
2,804
1,383
118
Country
United States of America
All atrocity/genocide denial is the same, whether we're talking about the Holocaust, Armenian Genocide, or what's currently going on in China.
Almost word for word with just a few specifics moved around.
It usually starts with saying it isn't happening. When that becomes an untenable position, it moves on to "it wasn't/isn't that bad" and when that becomes impossible, it's usually either a thinly veiled "they deserved it" or "the perpetrators were the real victims" or "the death counts are exaggerated for political reasons, so you shouldn't take it seriously"
What are the death counts in Xinjiang?

"the death counts are exaggerated for political reasons, so you shouldn't take it seriously"
When people like Adrian Zenz invent numbers for explicitly political reasons, is the intent to make disagreement fall into this category?
 
Last edited:

Gordon_4

The Big Engine
Legacy
Apr 3, 2020
2,029
1,162
118
Australia
What are the death counts in Xinjiang?



When people like Adrian Zenz invent numbers for explicitly political reasons, is the intent to make disagreement fall into this category?
If dictatorships have learned anything from the Third Reich, it’s probably not to bureaucratically record and track the systemic genocide you’re engaging in.

The best we’re gonna get is estimations from secondary or the odd primary source since I doubt the CCP are going to be so courteous as to document and file it like the Nazis did.
 

Seanchaidh

Elite Member
Legacy
Apr 24, 2020
2,804
1,383
118
Country
United States of America
If dictatorships have learned anything from the Third Reich, it’s probably not to bureaucratically record and track the systemic genocide you’re engaging in.

The best we’re gonna get is estimations from secondary or the odd primary source since I doubt the CCP are going to be so courteous as to document and file it like the Nazis did.
A plausible enough conspiracy theory/conspiracy fact, I suppose.
 

CM156

Resident Reactionary
Legacy
May 6, 2020
607
400
68
Country
United States
Gender
White Male
What are the death counts in Xinjiang?
Currently not known by anyone outside of China.
With you, we're still in the denial of it happening phase. Eventually, once you can no longer maintain this position, I expect you to move on.


When people like Adrian Zenz invent numbers for explicitly political reasons, is the intent to make disagreement fall into this category?
And your source on that claim is.....?
 

Seanchaidh

Elite Member
Legacy
Apr 24, 2020
2,804
1,383
118
Country
United States of America
Currently not known by anyone outside of China.
Most of the allegations don't even involve killing at all. Unlike, say, Palestine.

With you, we're still in the denial of it happening phase. Eventually, once you can no longer maintain this position, I expect you to move on.
I was also a Saddam WMD denialist.

And your source on that claim is.....?
Adrian Zenz is guilty of quite shoddy, inference-to-the-most-dubious-genocidal-explanation scholarship and has declared it his 'holy mission' (or somesuch) to bring down the Chinese Communist Party. The Red Sails article has citations, I think, though it's not the only place I've seen that quotes Zenz or debunked his claims.
 
Last edited:

Satinavian

Elite Member
Legacy
Apr 5, 2020
865
155
48
I was also a Saddam WMD denialist.
Iraqs WMDs were pushed by the US and to some degree the others of the Five Eyes. The majority of countries and the vast majority of capitalist media and even the clear majority of US allies always were pretty firm that the US was talking shit and never had presented anything resembling a proof or even a good hint. It was an obvoius lie from the beginning for everyone following international news.

China and Xinjiang ? That is a bit different. There is enough reporting about quite shitty behavior regarding suppression of culture, religion and a heavy handed attempt at sinicization. But when it comes to forced sterilisation, it is usually reported as a (somewhat credible) claim, but not a fact, as if people find it likely to some degree but not proven. And when it comes to mass murder for organ harvesting, the language turns even far more sceptical, if it is mentioned at all.
 

Seanchaidh

Elite Member
Legacy
Apr 24, 2020
2,804
1,383
118
Country
United States of America
The majority of countries and the vast majority of capitalist media and even the clear majority of US allies always were pretty firm that the US was talking shit and never had presented anything resembling a proof or even a good hint.
Not in the United States...

It was an obvoius lie from the beginning for everyone following international news.
This was still basically true, though.