Biden v. Trump Election Mega Thread

[tstorm823]

No. Just no. There are very few entities in media and politics less honest than Donald Trump.

I think we need to be incredibly careful about we think about Trump. When we talk about "normalising" behaviour across his presidency, one of the things Trump has successfully normalised is his ability to lie and bullshit and people turn a blind eye: "It's okay if Trump lies, that's just what Trump does". But this really is a serious degradation of the standards expected: the president has an ethical duty to properly inform the people that he was explicitly appointed to serve. People getting used to it is not the same as being the right thing to do. His constant lying disrespects the political office and is contemptuous towards US citizens.

Nor should we use a trick where we take tens, or hundreds, or thousands of media organisations and individuals, sum up all their individual untruths as a whole, and say "Ooh, that's more than Trump". Because taken at an individual level, most of them are better and in many cases - more so the much derided "MSM" where journalistic integrity is still a consideration - much better.

I disagree with you entirely. I think you could take almost any individual major news personality and put them against any major politician and make the politician look good. Trump gets his reputation for lies in part because they're lying about him.

Social media took down a Trump post for saying something factually correct about covid-19.

 

[tstorm823]

Why would the poll watcher bit have you fuming? What exactly are you wanting poll watchers to do and what benefit do they actually provide? Earlier, I had confused poll WORKERS and watchers, Poll workers actually help people make sure their information is correct, Poll watchers here in Texas are not even allowed to talk to voters or communicate with them in ay way in the first place or watch them vote. They cannot even question the validity of a ballot or question why a voter would have to fill out form due to not being able to obtain an ID. They can report violations to the election judge, but they are not allowed to discuss the matter at all beyond reporting it. If they are just dropping off mail in ballots, there aren't even ballots to count at the drop boxes.

What exactly are you hoping to gain by having poll watchers?

People Have Ideas About What ‘Poll Watchers’ Do. Here’s What Texas Law Says They Can *Actually* Do.

The first thing you should know is you can't just show up.

www.texasstandard.org

Poll watchers are representatives of the parties meant to observe the election administrators and make sure they're not breaking the law. It's part of a transparent election process. It's not about questioning the voters, it's about keeping tabs on those running the polls, because they're the ones capable of defrauding a whole election. Pennsylvania doesn't have early voting, but Philadelphia has effectively opened up early voting polling places by allowing people to receive and submit their votes all at once. And they're telling the campaigns that they don't have the right to observe because they aren't technically polling places. But they totally are polling places, and the Trump campaign is right to argue as much.

Even if you're inclined to disagree that they're polling places, which I don't know why you would other than partisan loyalty, you have to admit there's at least a reasonable question here. That fact check was just like "there aren't any polls open, and no poll watchers have been approved." Like, they're playing dumb. When they buzzed him in the video, they marked it with "???" as if to say "we don't even know what he's talking about." But the city of Philadelphia has basically declared that covid overrules all election accountability, which would be slightly more forgivable a stance if people weren't convicted this year of stuffing ballot boxes in Philadelphia.

From May 2020: South Philly judge of elections admits he took bribes to stuff the ballot box for Democratic candidates

Domenick DeMuro, a Democratic ward leader, pleaded guilty to inflating vote counts for help candidates for judge.

www.inquirer.com

Former Congressman Charged with Ballot Stuffing, Bribery, and Obstruction

A former U.S. Congressman was charged Tuesday in an indictment unsealed today, with conspiring to violate voting rights by fraudulently stuffing the ballot boxes for specific candidates in the 2014, 2015, and 2016 primary elections, bribery of an election official, falsification of records...

www.justice.gov

 

[lil devils x]

Poll watchers are representatives of the parties meant to observe the election administrators and make sure they're not breaking the law. It's part of a transparent election process. It's not about questioning the voters, it's about keeping tabs on those running the polls, because they're the ones capable of defrauding a whole election. Pennsylvania doesn't have early voting, but Philadelphia has effectively opened up early voting polling places by allowing people to receive and submit their votes all at once. And they're telling the campaigns that they don't have the right to observe because they aren't technically polling places. But they totally are polling places, and the Trump campaign is right to argue as much.

Even if you're inclined to disagree that they're polling places, which I don't know why you would other than partisan loyalty, you have to admit there's at least a reasonable question here. That fact check was just like "there aren't any polls open, and no poll watchers have been approved." Like, they're playing dumb. When they buzzed him in the video, they marked it with "???" as if to say "we don't even know what he's talking about." But the city of Philadelphia has basically declared that covid overrules all election accountability, which would be slightly more forgivable a stance if people weren't convicted this year of stuffing ballot boxes in Philadelphia.

From May 2020: South Philly judge of elections admits he took bribes to stuff the ballot box for Democratic candidates

Domenick DeMuro, a Democratic ward leader, pleaded guilty to inflating vote counts for help candidates for judge.

www.inquirer.com

Former Congressman Charged with Ballot Stuffing, Bribery, and Obstruction

A former U.S. Congressman was charged Tuesday in an indictment unsealed today, with conspiring to violate voting rights by fraudulently stuffing the ballot boxes for specific candidates in the 2014, 2015, and 2016 primary elections, bribery of an election official, falsification of records...

www.justice.gov

What is the reason for them though if they aren't actually counting ballots and they can't even see the ballots there? They aren't saying COVID overrule election accountability because they aren't even counting the ballots there. They cannot even see the ballots there. The poll watchers would need to be where they open them and count them instead for them to actually serve a purpose though. They wouldn't even know what the person was putting into the ballot box, it matters more when they actually look at what they have there. Primary elections aren't overseen by the same people anyhow, they are handled by their own parties so it would be irrelevant. GOP has had a ton of issues with their own primaries as well, that is why politicians cannot even be poll workers or watchers in the first place for general elections. The ballots Trump was complaining about before were from his GOP primary, not the general election and are not even controlled by the same people. So none of either of those situations would even apply here.

 

[tstorm823]

What is the reason for them though if they aren't actually counting ballots and they can't even see the ballots there? They aren't saying COVID overrule election accountability because they aren't even counting the ballots there. They cannot even see the ballots there. The poll watchers would need to be where they open them and count them instead for them to actually serve a purpose though. They wouldn't even know what the person was putting into the ballot box, it matters more when they actually look at what they have there. Primary elections aren't overseen by the same people anyhow, they are handled by their own parties so it would be irrelevant. GOP has had a ton of issues with their own primaries as well, that is why politicians cannot even be poll workers or watchers in the first place.

A election judge was just convicted for voting dozens of times in multiple elections when people weren't watching. Now that same city is telling campaigns they aren't allowed to watch.

 

[lil devils x]

A election judge was just convicted for voting dozens of times in multiple elections when people weren't watching. Now that same city is telling campaigns they aren't allowed to watch.

That said it was for PRIMARIES. Not the general election. Those are controlled and run sperate by their perspective parties, not part of the general elections. That was what I addressed above. We have known about shenanigan's by both parties for primaries forever now, that is not actually new here, nor does it apply to the general elections.

 

[Agema]

I disagree with you entirely. I think you could take almost any individual major news personality and put them against any major politician and make the politician look good. Trump gets his reputation for lies in part because they're lying about him.

When Stalin reputedly said that one death is a tragedy and a million deaths are a statistic, the same principle applies to Trump's lying. Trump's lies have become statistics, not tragedies, so numbed are people to them.

It's really not just a political thing, either, it's a lifelong habit. He's always been utterly dishonest: even his routine cheating of creditors and contractors in his business life is a manifestation of this (hence why nearly all major financial institutions refused to do business with him by the 90s, trust to honour contracts being a big deal in finance).

When you sit there and say journalists lie more than politicians, what you more mean is that where there is the slightest grey area, you always take Trump's side over the journalist. We've all sat through many of your torturous attempts to reanalyse Trump's statements in the implausibly optimistic way possible.

 

[Shadyside]

Tonight, Harris and Pence will debate. The VP debate is going to be more important to watch since I don't think either Biden or Trump will survive another 4 years.

 

[tstorm823]

When you sit there and say journalists lie more than politicians, what you more mean is that where there is the slightest grey area, you always take Trump's side over the journalist. We've all sat through many of your torturous attempts to reanalyse Trump's statements in the implausibly optimistic way possible.

The news claimed Trump thought people wore masks to protest him. He was asked that question and said no. Don't blame me if I correct the record.
The news claimed Trump told the pork industry to regulate itself. The regulatory change was a minor change made after a successful 20 year pilot program that had nothing to do with Trump except for when it coincidentally ended. Don't blame me if I correct the record.
The news claimed Trump called neo-nazis fine people. Trump explicitly said in the same breath that he wasn't talking about neo-nazis. Don't blame me if I correct the record.
The news claimed Trump was preparing an executive order declaring Jewish people un-American. Trump was actually declaring that civil rights protections apply to Jewish people. Don't blame me if I correct the record.
The news claimed Trump put kids in cages. The pictures were from 2014. Don't blame me if I correct the record.

This isn't implausible optimism. Things things aren't even reasonably debatable. The lies about him are constant and blatant. So why do any of you listen to these same people when they give you their paraphrase of what Trump says? Did Trump say inject bleach? No. Did Trump try and blackmail Ukraine? No. Did Trump refuse to condemn white supremacy? No. I don't have to paraphrase the man to show him not saying any of these things. It's not torturously reanalyzing. It's just ignoring the media spin on it.

Look at those examples. How many times in how many discussions have you told me "well, it's obviously implied by what he said." I listen to what people actually say. You ignore the words and hunt for imaginary dogwhistles.

 

[Houseman]

Look at those examples. How many times in how many discussions have you told me "well, it's obviously implied by what he said."

I like the one that goes "well even if he did/didn't say that, it doesn't matter because he's lying about it!"

 

[Shadyside]

From youtube

Perhaps it's time to enact age and term limits on the House and Senate. They did term limits on the Presidency. Two terms, or age 65, which ever comes first, and then your back in the private sector. No getting rich off the American Tax Payer. They should also change the lobbyist laws as well. No more big corporate influence in Washington D.C.. Things have become so toxic and dysfunctional in Washington D.C., nothing can get done without name calling, or blaming the other side, or blaming the lack of progress in this country on each other. They are a bunch of squabbling children that need to go. Also, lifetime appointments to Federal Judges and the Supreme Court need to go as well. Two four year terms, and out they go. No dominating the courts for 20 to 30 years. That is insane. Perhaps the American people should be given the power to call for a "Vote of No Confidence" on a president, House Member, or Senator if he or she is not doing their job, and doing what is right by the people who pay their over priced salaries. A couple of final thoughts. The representatives in the House and Senate work less in regards to the number of days per year. Only pay them for the time they are actually in Washington D.C.. NO paid vacations for the over 100 days a year they are not working or are on break. No Work, No Pay. We need the younger generations to take back the control of our government and put all the senile geriatric nut jobs out to pasture once and for all. Just think, fresh New Ideas, Fresh New and Hard Working Young Americans doing the job that the older generations can not get done. This insanity in Washington D.C. needs to stop, and stop NOW!

 

[lil devils x]

From youtube

That doesn't solve the problem. We still wind up with more people like Ted Cruz and less people like Bernie Sanders. Older doesn't mean worse, and younger doesn't mean better. Less time in office = grab what you can get and get out. It encourages looting rather than creating lasting progress.

The newer the candidate, the less you know about them. I would rather we focus more on educating voters so they understand how their politicians policies impact them directly so they can make more informed choices and passing anti corruption laws.

The less time they have to do something, the less incentive they have to do something good. Amy Barret < Ruth Bader Ginsburg. Being younger doesn't make them a good candidate. The problem we have is finding good people who will do the job at all, all you do with term limits is ensure we get less good people than we already have and less incentive for people to do anything other than smash and grab before the clock runs out. It would just make everything worse. We need good people and we need to keep them. Finding them and getting them elected in the first place is the biggest obstacle. All that term limits do is make sure we can't do that at all.

It is easier for corporations to install a revolving door of people who only serve their needs with a guaranteed job when their term is up, that works to help them the most because they can keep playing the " new guy going to fix it" line every few years and make people fall for it every single time. They lose nothing by screwing the people over because they don't need to be elected again! People who actually have something to lose are more willing to do something worthwhile.

People already do not want the job that will do the best job, we need more to convince them to take it, not give them more reasons not to. The people who do want the job are the ones who are being paid by corporations to be there to act in their interests, and term limits make that so much easier for them to do that.

 

[Agema]

snip

What about the other thousands of lies?

It's not so much the few dozen which are questionably deceptive or outright press misinterpretations. It's the massive mountain of thousands of them underneath you just conveniently ignore.

I like the one that goes "well even if he did/didn't say that, it doesn't matter because he's lying about it!"

But if he didn't lie and bullshit with total abandon, people probably wouldn't say that. This is the corrosion of trust caused by constant deception.

People such as yourself just don't seem to understand why people might have trouble trusting a perpetual liar. It's not something you should sound so superior about.

 

[tstorm823]

What about the other thousands of lies?

It's not so much the few dozen which are questionably deceptive or outright press misinterpretations. It's the massive mountain of thousands of them underneath you just conveniently ignore.

View attachment 1092



But if he didn't lie and bullshit with total abandon, people probably wouldn't say that. This is the corrosion of trust caused by constant deception.

People such as yourself just don't seem to understand why people might have trouble trusting a perpetual liar. It's not something you should sound so superior about.

Why do you believe those graphs represent anything remotely meaningful?

 

[Houseman]

People such as yourself just don't seem to understand why people might have trouble trusting a perpetual liar.

I don't understand why people continue to trust the mainstream news media, who have been perpetual liars for longer than Trump has been alive.
What did you call it? Corrosion of trust caused by constant deception?
These are the people who are telling you that Trump is a liar.

I'd like to see one of those "false or misleading claims" graphs where the subject is CNN, MSNBC, FOX news, BBC, or any other outlet. I think you'd need a bigger scale, though, probably somewhere in the tens or hundreds of thousands.

 

[SupahEwok]

Why do you believe those graphs represent anything remotely meaningful?

Paired with the context of the graphs, I cannot think of any other quote from you that so thoroughly encapsulates your posting history.

 

[Shadyside]

I don't understand why people continue to trust the mainstream news media, who have been perpetual liars for longer than Trump has been alive.
What did you call it? Corrosion of trust caused by constant deception?
These are the people who are telling you that Trump is a liar.

I'd like to see one of those "false or misleading claims" graphs where the subject is CNN, MSNBC, FOX news, BBC, or any other outlet. I think you'd need a bigger scale, though, probably somewhere in the tens or hundreds of thousands.

Both the MSM and Donald are children who cry wolf. But conventional wisdom and common sense show that Donald is a mentally disturbed old man who has been lying and undermining everyone and everything since he got his company. At the very least, MSM can and will change once they see low ratings.

 

[Shadyside]

VP debate if anyone cares.

 

[MrCalavera]

Both the MSM and Donald are children who cry wolf. But conventional wisdom and common sense show that Donald is a mentally disturbed old man who has been lying and undermining everyone and everything since he got his company. At the very least, MSM can and will change once they see low ratings.

Or: MSM are comprised of thousands(millions?) of people, with different agendas. Donald is ONE GUY, and yet he gives the media run for their money.
Yet another thing he's the greatest at, i guess.

 

[Shadyside]

There was a fly on Mikes hair for about 10 minutes. There was also a fly on Hilary during one of her debates, so clearly it's a sign that Donald will not win. The debate was boring, but very presidential. They both dodged the question about having protocols about what happens when the president is too old to do his duties. They need to give each person 5 minutes to talk, because 2 minutes is really not enough. There wasn't any real talk about the president halting the stimulus talk.

 

[Hawki]

VP debate if anyone cares.

What the fuck did I just watch?

No, seriously, what did I watch? Debates are meant to be interruptions, mean swipes, ad hominem, bickering, and yelling. Not reasonable discussions of policy. What madness is this?

Snark aside, it was refreshing to see that. I actually can't say who 'won' the debate overall. I have no idea why Pence is vice president rather than president because at the very least, he can handle himself and present a case for the GOP, regardless as to whether you agree with it or not. That said, the moderator let him get away with speaking overtime far too much (Harris as well, but she was far less egregious), but cripes, maybe there's hope for American democracy yet.