Biden v. Trump Election Mega Thread

[Shadyside]

Telling Donald to shut up was the most restrained thing that could have been done to him. It's a miracle that he wasn't cussed out, because that's what the majority of people would have done in the siutation. Donald is a 10 year old kid who doesn't know when to sit down and shut up. Unfortunately, there are a lot of people like him with a lust to "win" and dominate in an incredibly unhealthy way. There's no room to stand back since they would see that as "weakness".

 

[Dwarvenhobble]

Not really, everyone watching pretty well thought that was a very restrained response, though the look on his face while trump was acting crazy was pretty funny. Biden was looking at him with his head slightly to the side like in disbelief as if saying, " Are you for real? You are seriously behaving like a loon on National TV like that?" Like can you believe this guy is really doing that?! LOL

All Biden was missing there was one of his buddies standing next to him for him to nudge with his elbow and point saying, "Get a load of this nut", like he was watching a clown.

It was somewhat restrained by Biden but not that restrained. He could have come out of it far better I think because it seems more of a snap of losing control rather than maintaining control over Trump.

Trump may seem like an oaf and a fool but it kind of makes it worse Biden didn't seem in control.

A "Are you done yet?" would have likely gone over better than "Will you shut up!". Play it off as Trump being clearly foolish then Trump getting under his skin a little with his antics. I mean when "Trigger the libs" is seen as a good thing among his base him seemingly even slightly pissing off Biden would be seen as good to them.

 

[Schadrach]

Some think that it was just the policies on the healthcare exchange that have been getting worse, but I actually think it was an industry wide issue being imposed by the investors and underwriters of the plans themselves rather than just isolated to Healthcare exchange plans and it is just a matter of time for most to fall in line unless we move forward on the proposed legislation to further regulate insurers.

Gotta protect those profit margins. And if regulation makes it harder to hit those margins one way, then they'll hit them another. So, for example if you can't deny high risk clients and can't charge them as much as would let you still hit profit margin from them then instead you charge everyone else more until you've made up the loss from them. And then when a smallish business customer questions why you're giving them a 30% price hike you blame Obamacare compliance. Because in a roundabout way, it is.

 

[Shadyside]

It's a sad state of affairs when we are thinking of shutting down microphones when a president talks over a candidate. Even if it is implemented, the public will accuse the moderator of being biased.

 

[MrCalavera]

That's why there should be strict time limits. You couldn't finish your statement, before the clock ran out, and your mic was muted? Too bad.

 

[Agema]

It's a sad state of affairs when we are thinking of shutting down microphones when a president talks over a candidate. Even if it is implemented, the public will accuse the moderator of being biased.

Institute the rule before debate. If it's not your turn to speak, your mic's off.

Although the rules have to be agreed beforehand, and apparently the White House has said they do not favour such changes...

 

[Shadyside]

That's why there should be strict time limits. You couldn't finish your statement, before the clock ran out, and your mic was muted? Too bad.

That's why there should be strict time limits. You couldn't finish your statement, before the clock ran out, and your mic was muted? Too bad.

It doesn't matter what they do. The average person will just shout bias if it goes against their beloved candidate. The only thing to do is not have an audience, since this debate would have been a million times worse if we heard constant cheering and clapping.

 

[Shadyside]

 

[Trunkage]

I'd disagree with the clean water, only because of the Chevron differences doctrine. It makes all environmental laws impossible to actually enact. Repealing the laws would make a difference

 

[tstorm823]

As a credit to both candidates, I believe that video contained more lies than the entire debate did.

1) Trump called the commissioner of The Big 10 and asked them about restarting the league. Shortly after, they announced a rescheduled season. The commissioner now claims it's unrelated and they didn't want it to be political. But you can't call that a lie by that timeline, he called them asking for football, they brought back football, he made a connection between the two events, and they frame it like he's making crap up.

2) Biden says 100,000,000 have preexisting conditions AND would be kicked off their healthcare without the ACA, Trump disputes that number, the video lists as estimate of people with preexisting medical conditions that's 6-7 times the total number of people who gained insurance through the ACA. Biden effectively claimed that removing existing condition protections would get people kicked off Medicare, Medicaid, or employer based insurance, which is total nonsense, but it's reasonable to fuddle which number is which in a live debate. This video doesn't have that excuse, they're just liars.

3) Biden absolutely opposed the travel ban from China. He said of it that we needed to follow science rather than xenophobia and fearmongering, and then months later declared that science supported travel restrictions therefore he did as well. That's only supporting the travel restrictions in the land where "Sure, I'll condemn white supremacy" means "I refuse to condemn white supremacy." Even if you want to take that line, how can you possibly call this a lie? Trump restricted travel, Biden called him xenophobic, seeing that as opposition is a reasonable conclusion. Nothing's fabricated.

4) You can't fact check "I don't know who said that, I don't think she said that." Trump not knowing things and saying as much isn't fact-checkable.

5) They tried to tie a single Trump rally to a rise in covid cases in Oklahoma. The trend in cases was already increasing, and had no suddenly visual changes in trajectory based on the date of that rally, they just happened to hit a local maximum near that time. Correlation isn't causation, and in this case it's almost certainly entirely coincidence. And that's their only data point. BS.

6) Trump says if you look at numbers for environmental health, we're doing phenomenally. To be clear, trends all started decades ago, but if you look at air and water quality, pollutant levels continue downward trends to this day. Too bad the video ignores numbers, and starts blabbering about changes Trump made that they speculate would cause pollution.

7) Trump's campaign requested having official poll watchers for early voting in Philadelphia. They were denied that by the city. Trump called that "kicked out". The video called him a liar because he had no official poll watchers. Right... because they were denied that. And they were denied that because poll watchers are only allowed at polling places, and these were just centers where people could register to vote and request a mail-in ballot and hand it back in immediately if they want... so totally not a polling place. Riiiight. Regardless, the video can go to hell. Seriously. They opened up locations where people can receive and submit ballots at the same time, declared them "not a polling place", and refused to approve poll watchers on those grounds, and their fact check is "they didn't have approved poll watchers and there are no open polling places." Jesus Christ.

Actual lies? A Portland Sheriff didn't say "I support president Trump." An officer said if people supported Trump more, the riots wouldn't be going on, but Trump claimed very specifically a sheriff endorsed him, so lie. (Note, the fact-check video couldn't find the context.) Trump didn't give incentives for electric cars, he inherited Obama's incentives for them and then fought to end the program, so that's a lie. And some of his numbers were off, so were Biden's, you're allowed to miss a statistic in a live debate, that's fine.

The candidates were pretty lousy in the debate, but shockingly honest, way more honest than the fact-checkers.

 

[lil devils x]

As a credit to both candidates, I believe that video contained more lies than the entire debate did.

1) Trump called the commissioner of The Big 10 and asked them about restarting the league. Shortly after, they announced a rescheduled season. The commissioner now claims it's unrelated and they didn't want it to be political. But you can't call that a lie by that timeline, he called them asking for football, they brought back football, he made a connection between the two events, and they frame it like he's making crap up.

2) Biden says 100,000,000 have preexisting conditions AND would be kicked off their healthcare without the ACA, Trump disputes that number, the video lists as estimate of people with preexisting medical conditions that's 6-7 times the total number of people who gained insurance through the ACA. Biden effectively claimed that removing existing condition protections would get people kicked off Medicare, Medicaid, or employer based insurance, which is total nonsense, but it's reasonable to fuddle which number is which in a live debate. This video doesn't have that excuse, they're just liars.

3) Biden absolutely opposed the travel ban from China. He said of it that we needed to follow science rather than xenophobia and fearmongering, and then months later declared that science supported travel restrictions therefore he did as well. That's only supporting the travel restrictions in the land where "Sure, I'll condemn white supremacy" means "I refuse to condemn white supremacy." Even if you want to take that line, how can you possibly call this a lie? Trump restricted travel, Biden called him xenophobic, seeing that as opposition is a reasonable conclusion. Nothing's fabricated.

4) You can't fact check "I don't know who said that, I don't think she said that." Trump not knowing things and saying as much isn't fact-checkable.

5) They tried to tie a single Trump rally to a rise in covid cases in Oklahoma. The trend in cases was already increasing, and had no suddenly visual changes in trajectory based on the date of that rally, they just happened to hit a local maximum near that time. Correlation isn't causation, and in this case it's almost certainly entirely coincidence. And that's their only data point. BS.

6) Trump says if you look at numbers for environmental health, we're doing phenomenally. To be clear, trends all started decades ago, but if you look at air and water quality, pollutant levels continue downward trends to this day. Too bad the video ignores numbers, and starts blabbering about changes Trump made that they speculate would cause pollution.

7) Trump's campaign requested having official poll watchers for early voting in Philadelphia. They were denied that by the city. Trump called that "kicked out". The video called him a liar because he had no official poll watchers. Right... because they were denied that. And they were denied that because poll watchers are only allowed at polling places, and these were just centers where people could register to vote and request a mail-in ballot and hand it back in immediately if they want... so totally not a polling place. Riiiight. Regardless, the video can go to hell. Seriously. They opened up locations where people can receive and submit ballots at the same time, declared them "not a polling place", and refused to approve poll watchers on those grounds, and their fact check is "they didn't have approved poll watchers and there are no open polling places." Jesus Christ.

Actual lies? A Portland Sheriff didn't say "I support president Trump." An officer said if people supported Trump more, the riots wouldn't be going on, but Trump claimed very specifically a sheriff endorsed him, so lie. (Note, the fact-check video couldn't find the context.) Trump didn't give incentives for electric cars, he inherited Obama's incentives for them and then fought to end the program, so that's a lie. And some of his numbers were off, so were Biden's, you're allowed to miss a statistic in a live debate, that's fine.

The candidates were pretty lousy in the debate, but shockingly honest, way more honest than the fact-checkers.

I disagree with your " assessment" of the fact checkers, as " your alternative facts" are not really facts here at all, but we have already gone rounds on many of these issues already so I am not going to waste more time bothering with that. HOWEVER:

1) For years now, many disabled and elderly had a member of their family dropping off their ballots for them via mail in voting in many areas, as it is not always feasible for someone to be able to leave their home at all, this has only increased due to the pandemic. Not everyone has access to personal hazmat like this 102 yr old woman here:

Not everyone can even be easily moved, or even has a vehicle for them to be transported in order to be able to get to a ballot drop box. Even when my Dad was paralyzed while at home for a few years, he was transported via ambulance anytime he was transported at all. He still voted during those years via mail, but somehow now this is suddenly not acceptable? Due to the pandemic, we are being told that we limit the number of people per family that are allowed into the store at once, encouraging one person per household to do the shopping, but yet suddenly it is now not okay for people to just drop off all the ballots for their family? That is asinine, and honestly inexcusable.

We need to make it so that everyone in the US can vote via mail if they choose without hassle, not try and make it harder for anyone to vote. We need to end the voter suppression BS. If a candidate cannot win their district if every single person voted in that district, they do not deserve to win the election at all. " poll watchers" are supposed to be there to make sure people can fill out their ballots correctly so that their vote will count, not to try and prevent people from being able to vote. Since they are not filling out mail in ballots at the drop box, there is no reason to have a poll watcher there in the first place other than to attempt to intimidate people.

We shouldn't have to go buy a hazmat suit to put on those with compromised immune systems, or pay for and arrange ambulatory transport just so they can vote. God forbid someone has a change in their condition or circumstances within a short time too close to the polls so they cannot be transported. This is just stupid to expect people to have to do in the first place.

 

[Silvanus]

1) Trump called the commissioner of The Big 10 and asked them about restarting the league. Shortly after, they announced a rescheduled season. The commissioner now claims it's unrelated and they didn't want it to be political. But you can't call that a lie by that timeline, he called them asking for football, they brought back football, he made a connection between the two events, and they frame it like he's making crap up.

So... there's no proven (or even credible) connection, but he's claiming it as fact. Yeah, that can reasonably be filed under "making crap up".

3) Biden absolutely opposed the travel ban from China. He said of it that we needed to follow science rather than xenophobia and fearmongering, and then months later declared that science supported travel restrictions therefore he did as well. That's only supporting the travel restrictions in the land where "Sure, I'll condemn white supremacy" means "I refuse to condemn white supremacy." Even if you want to take that line, how can you possibly call this a lie? Trump restricted travel, Biden called him xenophobic, seeing that as opposition is a reasonable conclusion. Nothing's fabricated.

But... the xenophobia comment wasn't made in connection with the travel restrictions, was it? There's mountains upon mountains of other stuff it could've been made in connection with. Trump made that connection, not Biden.

4) You can't fact check "I don't know who said that, I don't think she said that." Trump not knowing things and saying as much isn't fact-checkable.

Uhrm, sure, technically true, but it stretches credulity to believe that the President doesn't know what his own spokesperson said on his behalf. If it's not a lie or deflection, then he's enormously ignorant about the activities of his own staff. I was already aware of that statement, and I'm not her boss and don't live in the country.

The candidates were pretty lousy in the debate, but shockingly honest [...]

Oh lol. When something like the debate happens, I always look forward to the mad spin. You haven't disappointed.

 

[Agema]

Oh lol. When something like the debate happens, I always look forward to the mad spin. You haven't disappointed.

I can't help but notice that since that debate Trump's lost another percentage point to Biden on national polls (also reflected by state polls shifting more towards Biden). So I think we can say even if that debate didn't have a winner, it had a loser.

Hell, Biden's now possibly narrowly ahead in Georgia. More debates like that and Trump might even persuade Texas to vote for Biden.

 

[tstorm823]

Oh lol. When something like the debate happens, I always look forward to the mad spin. You haven't disappointed.

I'm not saying either candidate was totally honest, but we've somehow stumbled into a world where the media is less honest than the politicians. Like, that Philadelphia poll watcher bit had me fuming this morning.

 

[Dalisclock]

Biden says there shouldn't be a second debate if Trump still has Covid-19 | CNN Politics

Democratic presidential nominee Joe Biden said Tuesday that the second presidential debate should not be held if President Donald Trump is still infected with coronavirus, but that he would base his participation in the debate upon recommendations from medical experts.

www.cnn.com

CNN isn't my favorite source due to being pretty mediocre but since it's the only one popping up right now I'll use it.

Apparently Biden's camp is saying "No debate if Trump still has Covid.".

Good. He's already shown he doesn't care if his own people get sick, judging on the state of the White house right now. There's no reason for Biden to take a stupid risk because Trump thinks he's invincible(or wants everyone to believe that).

And after the last debate, I don't think that many people are going to care that much if there's not a second. Honestly, I don't think it makes much of a difference at this point. Pretty much everyone has decided who they're gonna vote for by now. It's not like there's a ton of people who have looked at the last 4 years and are somehow just waiting for debates to finally make up their mind. Trump is either your boy....for whatever reason.....or you're very unhappy with where's he's left the country and you're ready to put ANYONE else in the white house to return some semblance to normalcy and sanity.

Or you're voting for Jo Jorgenson because.....sure.

 

[Kwak]

Biden says there shouldn't be a second debate if Trump still has Covid-19 | CNN Politics

Democratic presidential nominee Joe Biden said Tuesday that the second presidential debate should not be held if President Donald Trump is still infected with coronavirus, but that he would base his participation in the debate upon recommendations from medical experts.

www.cnn.com

CNN isn't my favorite source but since it's the only one popping up right now I'll use it.

Apparently Biden's camp is saying "No debate if Trump still has Covid.".

Good. He's already shown he doesn't care if his own people get sick, judging on the state of the White house right now. There's no reason for Biden to take a stupid risk because Trump thinks he's invincible(or wants everyone to believe that).

And after the last debate, I don't think that many people are going to care that much if there's not a second.

Seem's like he's not actually saying 'no fucking way' though, he's just suggesting a course of action that might possibly be one to consider, perhaps, maybe.

Like the rest of the Democrats. Not actually putting the foot down, just indicating the probable direction the foot may be persuaded to repose. But only if it's not too inconvenient.

 

[Dalisclock]

Seem's like he's not actually saying 'no fucking way' though, he's just suggesting a course of action that might possibly be one to consider, perhaps, maybe.

Like the rest of the Democrats. Not actually putting the foot down, just indicating the probable direction the foot may be persuaded to repose. But only if it's not too inconvenient.

We'll see how the story develops.

Apparently the Pence-Harris debate is now going to have Plexiglass shields.

I'm curious to see if Donald insists on having the debate and then spends the whole time coughing, gasping and running a fever. Which will be the medias fault and Bidens, because of course it is. I'm sure he'll find a way to blame Obama as well, because why the fuck not?

 

[Agema]

I'm not saying either candidate was totally honest, but we've somehow stumbled into a world where the media is less honest than the politicians. Like, that Philadelphia poll watcher bit had me fuming this morning.

No. Just no. There are very few entities in media and politics less honest than Donald Trump.

I think we need to be incredibly careful about we think about Trump. When we talk about "normalising" behaviour across his presidency, one of the things Trump has successfully normalised is his ability to lie and bullshit and people turn a blind eye: "It's okay if Trump lies, that's just what Trump does". But this really is a serious degradation of the standards expected: the president has an ethical duty to properly inform the people that he was explicitly appointed to serve. People getting used to it is not the same as being the right thing to do. His constant lying disrespects the political office and is contemptuous towards US citizens.

Nor should we use a trick where we take tens, or hundreds, or thousands of media organisations and individuals, sum up all their individual untruths as a whole, and say "Ooh, that's more than Trump". Because taken at an individual level, most of them are better and in many cases - more so the much derided "MSM" where journalistic integrity is still a consideration - much better.

 

[lil devils x]

We'll see how the story develops.

Apparently the Pence-Harris debate is now going to have Plexiglass shields.

I'm curious to see if Donald insists on having the debate and then spends the whole time coughing, gasping and running a fever. Which will be the medias fault and Bidens, because of course it is. I'm sure he'll find a way to blame Obama as well, because why the fuck not?

It would be sort of ridiculous though to have everyone in full Hazmat due to Trump insisting on infecting everyone around him.

 

[lil devils x]

I'm not saying either candidate was totally honest, but we've somehow stumbled into a world where the media is less honest than the politicians. Like, that Philadelphia poll watcher bit had me fuming this morning.

Why would the poll watcher bit have you fuming? What exactly are you wanting poll watchers to do and what benefit do they actually provide? Earlier, I had confused poll WORKERS and watchers, Poll workers actually help people make sure their information is correct, Poll watchers here in Texas are not even allowed to talk to voters or communicate with them in ay way in the first place or watch them vote. They cannot even question the validity of a ballot or question why a voter would have to fill out form due to not being able to obtain an ID. They can report violations to the election judge, but they are not allowed to discuss the matter at all beyond reporting it. If they are just dropping off mail in ballots, there aren't even ballots to count at the drop boxes.

What exactly are you hoping to gain by having poll watchers?

People Have Ideas About What ‘Poll Watchers’ Do. Here’s What Texas Law Says They Can *Actually* Do.

The first thing you should know is you can't just show up.

www.texasstandard.org