BioShock Creator "Sad" Over ME3's Ending Scandal

[NitehawkFury]

Are films art? If so, I don't see how games are somehow supposed to be above editing or reworking of material.

Films are often put before audiences to test them out, and sometimes are even released with different endings, altered scenes, and other things.

Entertainment is often a collaborative art, and I would even compare Mass Effect to something more akin to a stageplay or improv show, because so much of the engagement is dependant upon the audience input.

Unlike a painting, a game is interactive. It seems to me that attempting to apply the (undefined) title of "art" to games is only a moniker meant to serve the person creating the strawman argument. Such strong reaction to the treatment of an entertainment property is indicative of a mistake somewhere.

If a freeway were built through a city without any offramps, you can bet people would be upset, despite whatever the "vision" for that project was, no matter how "devisive" the reaction was.

 

[Hydralysk]

I don't believe anyone would be 'sad' if they got a new ending, we didn't go into this game expecting our perfect outcome. It astounds me that most people think Shepard dying is the big problem we have with the ending. Shepard dying would have been fine as long as it fit and made sense.

What we expected is an ending that wasn't so full of logical fallacies and plot holes big enough to drive a bus through. We expected what Bioware promised us in their interviews. They said said we'd get 16 vastly different endings, http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rPelM2hwhJA watch this and tell me with a straight face that those are in any way "vastly different". They said that all our choices would factor into the outcome of the series. Nope, no matter what you did to get there, no matter who lived or who died, you get to the end and you get the same 3 flavors of doomsday device. They said they wouldn't leave it like 'Lost' and leave the game with more questions than answers. That's exactly how they left it. You pick your color, destroy the fabric of galactic civilization, and the Normandy crashes on an unknown planet. That's it, fade to credits.

Arguing that games are art is one thing, but if I was promised a painting of horse by an artist and instead got one of a camel, it's well within my rights to ask for a change.

If Bioware decides to go "Well even if 85% of our fans hate the ending and think we lied, screw em it's ART" then they can. But if any of that stuff they said about listening to their fans is true, then they know they screwed up.

As a final note, I'd like people who believe art shouldn't ever be changed to watch this http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=d-v-f2mT94Y and tell me the artist was in the right.

 

[gigastar]

"If Bioware planned for this reaction, theyre a fucking genius."

The insane publicity alone must have paid its worth for the 13 mins or so of footage that has apparently deficated right into thier fans eyes.

Never mind the people demanding a true ending DLC and swearing blood oaths that they will buy it.

I don't care about this bullshit about Games being an art medium. I doubt anything EA games spawn can be considered anything more than casual marketing pandering bullshit.

Right now the biggest issue for me with the ending protests is that it ignores all the other problems of the game. If Bioware caves and produces a better ending, it better be free, or they're just setting a bad precedent.

Ive got to wonder, what are you going to hate on when the whole Mass Effect 3 mess blows over?

 

[Kmadden2004]

I don't want video games to be considered art, I want them to be bloody entertaining.

They can't be both?

Film is art, yet we have Die Hard and Raiders of the Lost Ark (and anybody who dares claim those movies are not art can meet me outside)...

 

[anthony87]

indeed, Ken. I am nothing short of EMBARRASSED by the gaming community when I heard that people are demanding refunds just because the ending was unsatisfying. THIS is what the gaming community has sunk to? Just throw a hissy fit, angrily stamping your feet like a five-year-old until you get your way? Really? This is one of most pathetic moments in gaming culture I can think of and it's probably within Bioware's best interests as designers and story writers to not cave into this juvenile bullshit.

I wholeheartedly agree that the people who are looking for refunds and whatnot are just acting juvenile and I worry about the impression that they're gonna give to the rest of the world about game culture as a whole.

Having said that....

We'd spent the previous two games moulding our Shepards into what we wanted under the impression that every choice would matter, everything you do would have consequences in the following game.

Cue Mass Effect 3, our choices have amounted to nothing more than a progress bar on the war assets screen and we're left with a "Choose your own ending" scenario presented by a Deus Ex Machina who also starts spouting off about concepts that had never been mentioned before, concepts that you proved wrong yourself while playing the game.

The Catalyst says: "The created will always rebel against the creators" or something along those lines, where was the option for our Shepard to point out the window and say "Uhh.....The Geth and Quarians are right outside that window fighting side by side and have reconciled after a three centuries long war so I'm inclined to call bullshit on what you just said"

No matter what we said, no matter what we did, no matter who lived and who died, no matter who we loved or hated what we ended up with was three colour-coded identical endings that make no sense, leave gaping plot holes and provide absolutely no closure.

Don't get the wrong impression, I love Mass Effect. Loved the first one, loved the second one, loved the third one. I just really really wish the ending had been handled differently.

 

[Sigmund Av Volsung]

Harry Potter: Good Ending
Mass Effect: Confusing ending with several plotholes, and the choices that the chracter(s) had made weren't worth 2 sh***.

 

[Beautiful End]

*Sigh*

Videogames ARE art. But they're a specific type of art media. They're interactive. There's no videogame that forces you to sit and watch without you touching the controller. Even if gameplay only makes about 10% of the game (*coughMGScough*), YOU are part of the story. Otherwise, go home and watch a movie.

Like it's been said before, ME is awesome. But all the decisions that you made throughout the games, all the little things you worried about, all those moments you had to put the controller down and think what the best course of action was, all that went out the window with the ending(s) that looked EXACTLY the same no matter what choice you made. That is why people are upset.

If ME is BioWare's canvas, then alright, I guess there's nothing that can be done about the ending they chose, just like JK Rowling did with Harry Potter (Not complaining about HP, by the way). But remember that this was interactive. You were supposed to make the player feel like their decisions matter at the very end. With HP, we just sat down and enjoyed the ride. With games, we gotta sit down, take the steering wheel and find the best route.

Small difference, huge consequences.

 

[VonKlaw]

I don't want video games to be considered art, I want them to be bloody entertaining.

They can't be both?

Film is art, yet we have Die Hard and Raiders of the Lost Ark (and anybody who dares claim those movies are not art can meet me outside)...

I should probably clarify my point my saying "I don't want my video games to be considered art -unless that is their specific aim (i.e. Journey)-". This obsession that certain video games companies seem to have that...
"Our medium is just as important as film/conventional art (i.e. paintings)/literature, isn't it! They're all art, so are we, aren't we? Aren't we? Please say we are! Please".
...is just silly and annoying.

Video games are already as important as those mediums to the people that matter - video game players. They don't need to be bound to the rules of other types of media for the sake of being appreciated by people who don't give a shite about them either way.

 

[Richardplex]

"If Bioware planned for this reaction, theyre a fucking genius."

The insane publicity alone must have paid its worth for the 13 mins or so of footage that has apparently deficated right into thier fans eyes.

Never mind the people demanding a true ending DLC and swearing blood oaths that they will buy it.

I don't care about this bullshit about Games being an art medium. I doubt anything EA games spawn can be considered anything more than casual marketing pandering bullshit.

Right now the biggest issue for me with the ending protests is that it ignores all the other problems of the game. If Bioware caves and produces a better ending, it better be free, or they're just setting a bad precedent.

Ive got to wonder, what are you going to hate on when the whole Mass Effect 3 mess blows over?

Dragon Age 3, the next Mass Effect game, every game EA makes, fanboys, the apathetic, people who prefer their footwear brown, the world is his oyster.

 

[Nimcha]

The majority of people aren't mad about the "sad" or "downer" nature of the endings, god damnit. People are mad that they spent 100+ hours on a series, only for every single choice they made to be thrown out the window and not make a single damn difference in the end.

This, of course, is after we were told that our choices actually would matter.

Well, they did. What happens to the krogan, quarian, geth, rachni, etc. all pretty much hinge on your decisions. And a lot of choices you made in the previous games get resolved in the third game as well.

I guess most people would want to see a cutscene or something of these events playing out.

 

[fozzy360]

I was going to make a long ass comment on this, but pretty much everyone else has said everything I wanted to say and more. At the end, this is just a case of either "people completely missing the point," or "people ignoring the point for their own benefit." If you have had a finger on the pulse of the gaming crowd in the last month, there's no way that, by now, you shouldn't be aware of why disappointed everyone the way they did, especially given how good everything was before it.

But, hey, if these guys want to keep their heads up their own rear ends, then that's cool, too.

 

[AD-Stu]

I'm agreeing with Ken on this one. First and foremost, this is Bioware's game. If they're proud of what they made they should keep it that way. Don't like it? Stop buying games from them.

Except what he and most others are ignoring is Bioware's track record on this stuff.

If they really were uncompromising artists who'd maintained full ownership of their work from day one then I might be inclined to agree with him. But the simple fact is they're not.

From the very beginning of the series, Bioware has made a big deal of taking feedback from fans on board and changing their product accordingly. Numerous times they've given fans credit for "co-writing" the series with them.

Those aren't the words and actions of the uncompromising artists that Ken Levine seems to be talking about. The fact is Bioware has encouraged this kind of behaviour in the past, even reacted positively to it, and as a result it's hardly surprising that it's happening again.

EDIT: Case in point, the statement issued by Bioware just yesterday on the matter:

"We would like to clarify that we are actively and seriously taking all player feedback into consideration and have ruled nothing out. At this time we are still collecting and considering your feedback and have not made a decision regarding requests to change the ending. Your feedback and opinions are of the utmost importance to us. We apologize for any confusion this has caused. Our top priority regarding this discussion is to keep communication with you, our loyal fans, open and productive."

They're not acting like uncompromising artists, why should anyone expect them to be treated as such?

 

[blackdwarf]

sure, you are right that you can decide how its ends and that you don't feel anything for making a new ending. but as a artist you have to listen to the feedback that people gave you on and work you have created. sure, i know that "fans" have a really childish way of telling it, but still the problem is there. you have made a ending that most people were not satisfied with. done is done. asking to remake the ending is also silly, because you are forcing the artist to do something he/she doesn't agree with and isn't according to their view of their creation.

i have to say that there are theories that the ends has something to do with indoctrination.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ythY_GkEBck&feature=g-all-lik&context=G24cbf76FAAAAAAAACAA
this is the best video explaining. and if this was intended, then that would pretty genius. only now we won't know because if Bioware says that theory is correct, then i feels like they are saving their hides.

 

[Kira Milne]

Nobody is forcing anyone to do anything. However, similar to how if JK Rowling (to use your example) were to end a series in a way that made her customers (fans) angry, they would be fully in the right to not buy any book written by her ever again. The only thing "forcing" her to change it would be her own desire to make money in the future. In the same way, Bioware only has to change the ending if they wish to continue receiving money from those they have angered. If they would rather not have that income, they are fully within their rights to do nothing. Game companies are only "sad" about this because they are starting to realize that consumers are starting to pay more attention before they buy, so they are actually going to have to put some effort into making a good product now.

 

[weirdee]

i don't think that would technically "save them" anyway, since people felt the disconnect between their expectations and the ending presented to them, and will hold them responsible for it until the end of time

the follow up needs to be strong, or it will be for nothing

 

[Damien Granz]

BioShock Creator "Sad" Over ME3's Ending Scandal

Ken Levine and other videogame auteurs respect the finished product.

No matter which side you fall on the argument, it's clear that the ending of BioWare's last non-MMO game [http://www.escapistmagazine.com/news/tag/mass%20effect%203?from_search=1]. Other game designers are especially invested in how BioWare decides to handle the controversy. Speaking at a symposium to celebrate the art of videogames at the Smithsonian in Washington DC, Paul Barnett from BioWare-Mythic said that if games are to be considered art then the audience must respect the creators' right to make the game as they see fit. Ken Levine from Irrational Games - currently working on BioShock Infinite - chimed in to say that even if BioWare wrote a new ending, the audience still would be disappointed and that the whole thing made him "sad".

"If computer games are art than I fully endorse the author of the artwork to have a statement about what they believe should happen," said Barnett. "Just as J.K. Rowling can end her books and say that is the end of Harry Potter. I don't think she should be forced to make another one."

Those gathered to hear the discussion loudly applauded Barnett's words. When the ovation died down, Ken Levine made sure to express his opinion on the controversy surrounding the ending of Mass Effect 3 because he saw this as a watershed moment in gaming.

"I think this is an important moment," he said.

"I think if those people got what they wanted and (BioWare) wrote their ending they would be very disappointed in the emotional feeling they got because ... they didn't really create it," Levine said.

"This whole thing is making me a little bit sad because I don't think anyone would get what they wanted if that happened."

Source: Vox Games [http://www.theverge.com/gaming/2012/3/19/2885173/the-argument-over-mass-effect-3s-ending-makes-ken-levine-sad]

Permalink

Ken, Ken, Ken. What you're not realizing is that, you're not just an artist, you're a businessman first. The price of being only an artist and not being a business at the same time, the price of making art that only you want, is that sometimes that might make you the 'starving' artist type.

This issue isn't all about you, as if only your rights in this case mattered. You CAN make a product nobody wants to buy, but they aren't obligated to buy or like it.

Customers have every bit as much right to demand the end cap to a product they've potentially spent 180+ dollars on to be satisfying as you have the right to say 'no' and make the ending you want. But that doesn't make customers feel obligated to keep or buy your product.

I think that's a beauty of the current system of buying games, one that's dying, is that if the customers don't feel satisfied with a product they can try to sell it or wait to see it drop in price or buy it used and the like.

It's a two way street, honestly. You don't just get to dictate what product comes out and expect people to buy, and be happy with it no matter what. You don't get to be the sole arbitrator of your product because you're asking other people to financially add to that product. If you decide to take that right from them, expect them to stop giving you money.

 

[Stevepinto3]

What is annoying me most in this whole debacle is that everyone seems convinced that the people that didn't like the ending are completely incapable of being satisfied. That's just glossing over all of the complaints people had. No mention of the numerous plot holes or lore errors the ending creates, or even the fact that it crossed from "being open to interpretation" to just not telling anyone fuck-all.

For the record I do think the Retake Mass Effect movement is a bit silly. But while it's obvious that the creator's ultimately get to choose their ending (something which everyone is so quick to bring up in this discussion like everyone wasn't already aware of it), it's not like you're exempt from criticism for a shitty ending to a great series.

Not to mention that the very last thing you see in the epic conclusion to Mass Effect series are the words "downloadable content". Yeah, nice.

 

[Metalix Knightmare]

I don't want video games to be considered art, I want them to be bloody entertaining.

And I don't want films to be considered art, I just want them to be entertaining. And yet here we are.

 

[TsunamiWombat]

Nobody is forcing anyone to do anything. However, similar to how if JK Rowling (to use your example) were to end a series in a way that made her customers (fans) angry, they would be fully in the right to not buy any book written by her ever again. The only thing "forcing" her to change it would be her own desire to make money in the future. In the same way, Bioware only has to change the ending if they wish to continue receiving money from those they have angered. If they would rather not have that income, they are fully within their rights to do nothing. Game companies are only "sad" about this because they are starting to realize that consumers are starting to pay more attention before they buy, so they are actually going to have to put some effort into making a good product now.

I find it very amusing Rowling keeps coming up, because she very much wanted to kill Harry and/or Ron at the end of the series just 'cause. Her editors/fans convinced her this would be literary suicide.

 

[Kingsnake661]

This isn't about "ART". God I need an eyes roll emote.

This is about delivering on your own hype. They FAILED... We want them to try again...

But you know... even the art farts stuff... I'D agrue in this case it could be justifiable, seeing as how... the HACK who screwed the story up and killed the ending ISN'T the guy who started the ball rolling and set the stage in mass effect. Drew Karpision (or however it's spelled...) wrote ME1. Most or all of ME2, the novels...except the last one, which, keep that in mind, and the comic.

Mac Walters took over in 3. I'm not sure how you share artistic... rights... or whatever, but, lets look at the LAST ME noval... deception. It was a HACK job, totally inaccraute, practicaly unreadable. It's being, last i checked, "fixed" by, in part, Drew. If that's ok, and i havent heard any out rage, why would "fixing" ME3s ending, an ending that, imo, is so far removed from what they've hyped for 5 YEARS it boarders on false advertising, it's such a big "artistic" deal. But whatever.

At this point in time, I don't CARE what they do. The damage is done, and my "fanboy" stasis for bioware is gone. I'd buy a bioware game a year ago on name brand good will alone. Not anymore. There next game, a game was only mieldly intresting in, BECAUSE it was a bioware game, is totally off my Radar. Command and Concar is not my cup of tea, but i was considering it because bioware was doing it. I'm not saying i'll never buy a bioware game again, i'm just saying, well, it has to really impress me now, as brand loyality is no longer a factor.

I doubt i'm alone in this frame of mind. THAT, is some damage to there brand name they really need to start addressing or things might really go down hill for them.