BioWare Announces Post-Ending DLC for Mass Effect 3 [Updated!]

[Diana Kingston-Gabai]

Do you really not get the distinction between SOME and ALL?

In this specific case, that's just semantics: you, the player, are not in a position to care about underdeveloped organic species that may or may not become the Reapers' next victims in 50,000 years. You are concerned with the fates of humans, turians, asari, krogan, quarians, etc. In other words, for Shepard, the fact that the Reapers only destroy "some" organics is irrelevant given that it's your entire civilization that falls in that category.

 

[NinjaDeathSlap]

Well, it still doesn't seem to fix the annoying CIRCULAR LOGIC of the Catalyst, the jarring twist of the ending, none of the mechanics of the endings actually being explained, and the Mass Relays being destroyed.

But it fixes the most pressing issue at least, and it does it for free, so I guess I can be grteful for that.

I'm kind of tired of people using the phrase "circular logic." Circular logic would imply that you have a premise and you use that premise to prove itself. The Catalyst's premise is that machine always rebel, etc. so he concludes that he needs to stop it. You might not agree with his premise, but it is not circular logic.

Killing us with machines in order to protect us from machines. Sounds like circular logic to me...

Killing only advanced civilizations in order to protect every single living organism in the galaxy.

I'll just refer you to my above post.

In other words, "blah blah blah, I'm not listening". Gotcha.

No. In other words, "I have a response for you, and it will just save us both time if I don't have to right it out again".

 

[Diana Kingston-Gabai]

To play Devil's Advocate:

It is broadly possible to construct an ending that provides closure without compromising the established ending. To wit:

If you choose the "Destroy" ending, the scientific think tank you assembled to put together the Crucible use the wreckage of the Reapers to build new, portable mass relays that allow the gathered fleets to return to their home systems. This is possible within the established game lore, since the Protheans were able to construct the Conduit on Ilos.

If you choose the "Control" ending, Shepard compels the Reapers to rebuild everything.

If you choose the "Synthesis" ending, the fleets are able to disperse since, being partly synthetic, decades-long FTL travel means nothing.

If Shepard survives in any of these endings, she sets out to recover the Normandy and its crew. If not, the crew eventually manage to repair the ship and limp back to Earth.

Granted, I'd prefer a bit more detail, but it's premature to say that nothing can amend what we've got right now. Quite frankly, there's nowhere to go but up...

 

[Samantha Burt]

Killing us with machines in order to protect us from machines. Sounds like circular logic to me...

Killing us to protected the REST OF THE UNIVERSE from potentially more harmful machines.
They are not protecting us (as that's why they are killing us off... duh).

OK, so what about that whole "We help them ascend" spiel he goes on, talking about how we will "live on in Reaper form" like he considers melting us all down into our genetic material and pumping us into a machine is a good way of saving us. Not organic life as a whole, us specifically.

Even if you're right, I can think of plenty of better ways to stop organic life fucking itself over with technology. Maybe perhaps just tell us that 'hey, creating machines to do everything for us, them giving them self-awareness might not be such a great idea'. That seems like a pretty sound way to preemptively avoid such an occurrence, rather than just sitting on your hands until we're in too deep, then wiping us out claiming it's for the good of the galaxy.

This is something I was pondering. They never actually explain why it's necessary to preserve life, or why anything we might create would have a reason to wipe out everything. Doesn't seem like a frog would cause much of an obstruction to the existence of a geth or somesuch.

Also, since the life you're preserving is going to ascend to that level at some point, assumedly, then surely everything is going to die ANYWAY. Why not let the synthetics we create kill everything off and then leave the galaxy in a lifeless ordered state? (Much like the auditors from The Discworld want)

 

[Samantha Burt]

To play Devil's Advocate:

It is broadly possible to construct an ending that provides closure without compromising the established ending. To wit:

If you choose the "Destroy" ending, the scientific think tank you assembled to put together the Crucible use the wreckage of the Reapers to build new, portable mass relays that allow the gathered fleets to return to their home systems. This is possible within the established game lore, since the Protheans were able to construct the Conduit on Ilos.

If you choose the "Control" ending, Shepard compels the Reapers to rebuild everything.

If you choose the "Synthesis" ending, the fleets are able to disperse since, being partly synthetic, decades-long FTL travel means nothing.

If Shepard survives in any of these endings, she sets out to recover the Normandy and its crew. If not, the crew eventually manage to repair the ship and limp back to Earth.

Granted, I'd prefer a bit more detail, but it's premature to say that nothing can amend what we've got right now. Quite frankly, there's nowhere to go but up...

... I like you

 

[NinjaDeathSlap]

Killing us with machines in order to protect us from machines. Sounds like circular logic to me...

Killing us to protected the REST OF THE UNIVERSE from potentially more harmful machines.
They are not protecting us (as that's why they are killing us off... duh).

OK, so what about that whole "We help them ascend" spiel he goes on, talking about how we will "live on in Reaper form" like he considers melting us all down into our genetic material and pumping us into a machine is a good way of saving us. Not organic life as a whole, us specifically.

Even if you're right, I can think of plenty of better ways to stop organic life fucking itself over with technology. Maybe perhaps just tell us that 'hey, creating machines to do everything for us, them giving them self-awareness might not be such a great idea'. That seems like a pretty sound way to preemptively avoid such an occurrence, rather than just sitting on your hands until we're in too deep, then wiping us out claiming it's for the good of the galaxy.

They kill the races, but preserve their DNA and history to assimilate it into the Reapers as a new Reaper body. It's like preserving the corpse of the last member of a now extinct species.

And telling a child not to do something is THE surest way to get them to do it, even if it's just to be contrary to an authority figure.

When said authority figure is an all knowing overlord lying at the centre of our civilisation who could destroy us at any time it it so pleased him, I think we might heed the warning.

 

[AbstractStream]

Casey Hudson decided to cut most of this conversation out, because he thought it would have been TOO LONG, just FYI. Really says a lot about his creative process.

************!

That was beautiful, AND THEY WENT AND CUT IT FROM THE FINAL GAME!?

I was so upset when I heard such a moving scene was cut. WHY CASEY?!

...But I keep reading in comments that if Shepard didn't romance anyone, this is the scene they get. Who's telling the truth? D:

 

[Diana Kingston-Gabai]

That doesn't make the logic itself circular.

As you yourself pointed out, circular logic requires that the premise feed into itself. To prevent synthetics from killing organics (a scenario in which the distinction between "all" and "some" is utterly irrelevant given that organic life has a tendency to crop up every cycle anyway) the Catalyst created synthetics to kill organics. Any more circular and it'd just be a string of palindromes.

 

[Diana Kingston-Gabai]

Also, as an aside: the Catalyst's claims of "helping races ascend in Reaper form" fall flat when you consider the fate of the Protheans - didn't EDI conclude that the Collectors were "repurposed" because they didn't fit whatever criteria the Reapers use to reproduce? That's at least one civilization that was harvested but not "ascended". The Keepers also come to mind...

 

[NinjaDeathSlap]

Killing us with machines in order to protect us from machines. Sounds like circular logic to me...

Killing us to protected the REST OF THE UNIVERSE from potentially more harmful machines.
They are not protecting us (as that's why they are killing us off... duh).

OK, so what about that whole "We help them ascend" spiel he goes on, talking about how we will "live on in Reaper form" like he considers melting us all down into our genetic material and pumping us into a machine is a good way of saving us. Not organic life as a whole, us specifically.

Even if you're right, I can think of plenty of better ways to stop organic life fucking itself over with technology. Maybe perhaps just tell us that 'hey, creating machines to do everything for us, them giving them self-awareness might not be such a great idea'. That seems like a pretty sound way to preemptively avoid such an occurrence, rather than just sitting on your hands until we're in too deep, then wiping us out claiming it's for the good of the galaxy.

This is something I was pondering. They never actually explain why it's necessary to preserve life, or why anything we might create would have a reason to wipe out everything. Doesn't seem like a frog would cause much of an obstruction to the existence of a geth or somesuch.

Also, since the life you're preserving is going to ascend to that level at some point, assumedly, then surely everything is going to die ANYWAY. Why not let the synthetics we create kill everything off and then leave the galaxy in a lifeless ordered state? (Much like the auditors from The Discworld want)

Well I'm guessing that, just as the Catalyst created the Reapers, someone else, presumably organic, would have had to create the catalyst at some point, and he has some kind of artificial instinct to preserve organic life programmed into him. Much like what EDI says about her 'instinct' to keep the Normandy running. It was just what he was created to do I guess, and he just got a little bit fucked up as to how to do it.

That's the most logical explanation I can come up with anyway, but maybe considering the endings, trying to be logical is missing the point.

 

[Undeadpool]

It's unbelievable the level of rage already in the that Jennifer Hale interview comment section. Like people actually believed Bioware would just comp us new art assets, bringing the entire voice cast back, having writers produce new material, have sound engineers record, edit and alter the voice performances and then spend that bandwidth FOR FREE.
And people wonder why the word "entitlement" gets thrown around so much...

 

[Zen Toombs]

Hmm. I wonder how many people that said "RAWR NEVER BIOWARE AGAIN" will change their tune if this free DLC pack is actually good? my answer: lots

It won't be. Stupid ending is still stupid. Flashcards won't make it less stupid. Nothing will make it less stupid. In order for the game to have a good ending, then the ending itself has to be changed.



Addendum - No to mention closure? What closure? There's not enough infrastructure to feed everybody left around Earth. Not enough planets in normal ftl distance to feed everybody either(remember, viable planets are relatively rare and besides except for the live ships the dextro races have no way of growing anything on a viable dextro planet anyway). The Normandy CAN'T be near enough to get back to earth within a year given that it was transferring through a mass effect relay at the time of kablooey. The Normandy doesn't exactly keep a large supply of food on board. Certainly not longer than 3-4 months which means everybody starves to death. Then there's the fact that it's trashed and NOBODY ELSE knows where the fuck it is. It is not possible to turn the current pile of radioactive shit into a decent ending.

There can be answers to all of those questions that reasonably don't end with a holocaust on Endor [http://www.theforce.net/swtc/holocaust.html]. There can be ways that this ending could be salvaged as they described. It is very possible that the ending to Mass Effect could be made far better with the framework they currently have.

I personally find it highly unlikely that something like that will happen, but it is a possibility. Also, note the part that you quoted me that is bolded.

 

[wsmieszek]

Well.. I've already made my ending decision by not purchasing ME3 at all. My Shepard is chilling with his entire team in some space-port after blowing up the unfinished Reaper and that's the end of the story. I'm satisfied with it.

 

[NinjaDeathSlap]

When said authority figure is an all knowing overlord lying at the centre of our civilisation who could destroy us at any time it it so pleased him, I think we might heed the warning.

The Reapers proveably weren't all-knowing, or they would have needed Soverign to be stationed in-galaxy as a lookout, or Saren's help with the Conduit. The Protheans even managed to hide some of their race from the Reapers, and would have succeeded were it not for indoctrinated sleeper agents. So it's not like it's impossible to hide the construction of synthetic life from them.

Who said anything about the Reapers, I was talking about the Catalyst.

Even without the Reapers, he controls everything that makes Galactic civilisation possible. If we didn't follow his advice, what's to stop him from just turning it all off, preventing us from ever getting to the stage where we become a danger to ourselves anyway?

 

[sumanoskae]

So you're going to try and fix the ending as is, good fucking luck. I hope you realize the extent of this "Epilogue" will have to extend into years to even come close to fixing the problems with the ending, on top of that, you'll have to pull some pretty bullshit Deus Ex Machina to improve the situation.

You guys REALLY think what this needs is clarification? Beyond the plot holes, what's to clarify? The species you stranded on earth are all gonna starve to death and die in technological dark age, your crew are stranded on some weird planet presumably outside the solar system, they will never see you again and many of them will also most likely die.

If you weren't planning to take the ending in such a dark direction, then why not change it?

I'm not feeling to optimistic, this DLC better be goddamned masterwork, or that's it, I fold.

Still, I'm glad they tried at least. They didn't have to listen to us at all. I'll try to move on and look forward to their other games, but I'll always be haunted by what could have been.

"You ever wonder how things would have been different? how our lives would be... different if this hadn't happened?"

"There'll be time enough for that now"

"I think that ship has sailed"

 

[Animyr]

Why do farmers protect their livestock from predators? Because their duty is to protect their animals, not promote the circle of life. The Reapers were setup as caretakers of organic life, and thus will do ANYTHING required to protect it, even if it means killing a portion of it.

First of all, the "livestock" thing did not come up in the ending at all. It was implied that the harvest was to "preserve" organic life. Ie they were doing us a favor. Self interest did not factor into the sharchild's explanation. He made it sound altruistic.

And before you say again "well all non-spacefaring life lives" yeah, oh boy, the dogs and other non sentient species get to live. Big whoop. And other civilizations will flourish...until the reapers kill them too. But hey, by killing those guys we prevented them from getting to big for their britches and doing something drastic that would damage other up and coming civilizations...who we're eventually going to kill anyway.

Gee, if everyone ends up dying a horrible death anyway, what's the damn point? Couldn't we just step in and protect organic life from any major threat, synthetic or organic? Naw, we'll burn everything. To help them! Yeah, how is this helping organic life again? The galaxy is big but still eventually you're going to run out of sentient species (after all, it took Earth 4 billion years to produce just one). Reaper self interest I can buy, but that's not the explanation we got.

Secondly, the reapers are synthetics themselves. They're pretty much exactly what they're supposed to stop. "Well, what if a new synthetic species comes along that has no restraint and kills everyone?" you'll probalbly say. Well, since the only candidtate we've seen, the geth, were pacifists until the reapers themselves came along. And there's EDI....no wait, she was a good guy too. Hmm, it's almost like the idea of inevitable synthetic war is bullcrap. Might as well say that organics will inevitably conquer each other and enslave each every race in the galaxy. Between the bloodthirsy Krogan and the racist Protheans, the precedent is there, more so then "all synthetics are evil."

Theoretical synthetics that don't exist and have never come close to existing during the story that are marginally more ruthless than the real, very ruthless synthetics we already have is not a compelling threat or a good replacement to the perfectly functional villians we already have. The game provides no proof that synthetics will inevitably destroy organics except the reapers themselves. It's all around dumb.

Which makes them effective villains because you want to punch them in their faces and tell them they're wrong.

Except you can't.