BioWare Apologizes For Representation of Trans Character in Andromeda

infohippie

New member
Oct 1, 2009
2,369
0
0
Addendum_Forthcoming said:
How about not buy BioWare games until they're less shit? Solves all your problems. You'll get no argument from me that BioWare is garbage, the difference is I'll only buy their game after I know it's properly patched and working acceptably, and when they are no longer making so much of a profit on it (because I'm spiteful like that).

Solves literally all people's problems.
I've already implemented that solution in my life. The last Bioware game I bought was Dragon Age 2. I haven't bought a Bioware game at all since then because DA2 was so very, very shit, and then I waited to hear what ME3 was like with the result I never bothered buying it either. I still reserve the right to complain about their shit characters because once upon a time I loved their games, mostly for the characters and the writing.
 

Addendum_Forthcoming

Queen of the Edit
Feb 4, 2009
3,647
0
0
infohippie said:
I've already implemented that solution in my life. The last Bioware game I bought was Dragon Age 2. I haven't bought a Bioware game at all since then because DA2 was so very, very shit, and then I waited to hear what ME3 was like with the result I never bothered buying it either. I still reserve the right to complain about their shit characters because once upon a time I loved their games, mostly for the characters and the writing.
Then just play old games and indie published stuff. I hear good things from Lisa but I haven't played it yet.

Frankly I find it disingenuous the idea that this is merely about a shit character. Because the way you decry it out, all the right wingnuts were screaming about 'tokenism' in Dragonspear in the exact same way. Frankly this is the first time I've heard about this ... and frankly I'll use the same commentary I used during Dragonspear... that I know people who are pretty open about being trans because they legitimately want to educate people on the trans experience they run into. They give talks about being trans, they sometimes help counsel parents who might be having difficulty understanding it.

I can't speak to the quality of how well that's encapsulated in the text, but having played Dragonspear ... meh. If I was a cleric in D&D who can call down godly power and see everything as a test of faith and a quest, then I can see how it wouldn't faze them in the slightest to being kind of an open book. Make sense as per the base games, make sense in world.

But regardless of all that stuff ... if your same criticism is the same criticism for EVERY OTHER CHARACTER, then just flat out not buy it. The reason why people scream about this stuff and nothing ever gets done is precisely because people are still giving them money. Their objective is not to deliver a good game, their objective is to make money and merely look like they want to deliver a decent game.

Honestly, I'm legitimately annoyed they pretend to use transgender criticism as a crutch. Nice that they want to deliver a little transgender representation, but if they were interested in doing that then they'd just talk to a few trans people and get their take on something and stand by the quality of their work based on real world experience of human agency and behaviour. But hey, what was that GG thing that they seem to forget nowadays? Oh that's right, #NotYourShield ... but that doesn't apply in this case for something-something-SJWs.
 

TheMysteriousGX

Elite Member
Legacy
Sep 16, 2014
8,316
6,822
118
Country
United States
So, just checking, but to be clear, the perpetually offended are being offended that Bioware apologized to a different set of perpetually offended?
 

infohippie

New member
Oct 1, 2009
2,369
0
0
Addendum_Forthcoming said:
infohippie said:
I've already implemented that solution in my life. The last Bioware game I bought was Dragon Age 2. I haven't bought a Bioware game at all since then because DA2 was so very, very shit, and then I waited to hear what ME3 was like with the result I never bothered buying it either. I still reserve the right to complain about their shit characters because once upon a time I loved their games, mostly for the characters and the writing.
Then just play old games and indie published stuff. I hear good things from Lisa but I haven't played it yet.

Frankly I find it disingenuous the idea that this is merely about a shit character. Because the way you decry it out, all the right wingnuts were screaming about 'tokenism' in Dragonspear in the exact same way. Frankly this is the first time I've heard about this ... and frankly I'll use the same commentary I used during Dragonspear... that I know people who are pretty open about being trans because they legitimately want to educate people on the trans experience they run into. They give talks about being trans, they sometimes help counsel parents who might be having difficulty understanding it.

I can't speak to the quality of how well that's encapsulated in the text, but having played Dragonspear ... meh. If I was a cleric in D&D who can call down godly power and see everything as a test of faith and a quest, then I can see how it wouldn't faze them in the slightest to being kind of an open book. Make sense as per the base games, make sense in world.

But regardless of all that stuff ... if your same criticism is the same criticism for EVERY OTHER CHARACTER, then just flat out not buy it. The reason why people scream about this stuff and nothing ever gets done is precisely because people are still giving them money. Their objective is not to deliver a good game, their objective is to make money and merely look like they want to deliver a decent game.
I think you're talking to the wrong person here. I simply reminded people that Bioware's human squadmates have been flat and dull ever since Mass Effect 1. I don't care that a character is trans, and I haven't said a word about tokenism, though I guess I'm about to now. I do care that Bioware no longer write interesting characters, instead they write a bunch of "socially aware" tickboxes. Their characters' identity politics is now pretty much their entire characterisation. Just FYI, I have been dating a trans girl for more than five years now, and she is a unique and interesting person in her own right without any reference to her being trans. If a character's only defining aspect is that they're trans, or gay, or whatever else, then Bioware have not only failed to write an interesting character, they have also failed to successfully represent trans people, or gay people, or whichever.
 

MHR

New member
Apr 3, 2010
939
0
0
I, like everyone else, don't know why they're apologizing for this smallest of slights (you have to act a certain way to be a proper transgender now? PC knows no self-awareness,) when they could just have said they were sorry for the whole game and saved time.

Not buying this game. Since the very beginning when there was but a whisper about Andromeda succeeding ME3, I knew it would be nothing but a painful resurrection of a hopeless franchise just for cash. Turns out to be 100% true.
 

Erttheking

Member
Legacy
Oct 5, 2011
10,845
1
3
Country
United States
altnameJag said:
So, just checking, but to be clear, the perpetually offended are being offended that Bioware apologized to a different set of perpetually offended?
With some tumblr bashing to spice things up. Some things never change.
 

Addendum_Forthcoming

Queen of the Edit
Feb 4, 2009
3,647
0
0
infohippie said:
I think you're talking to the wrong person here. I simply reminded people that Bioware's human squadmates have been flat and dull ever since Mass Effect 1. I don't care that a character is trans, and I haven't said a word about tokenism, though I guess I'm about to now. I do care that Bioware no longer write interesting characters, instead they write a bunch of "socially aware" tickboxes. Their characters' identity politics is now pretty much their entire characterisation. Just FYI, I have been dating a trans girl for more than five years now, and she is a unique and interesting person in her own right without any reference to her being trans. If a character's only defining aspect is that they're trans, or gay, or whatever else, then Bioware have not only failed to write an interesting character, they have also failed to successfully represent trans people, or gay people, or whichever.
My annoyance is the fact that they use the trans character as a crutch. It's easy enough to talk to actual trans people whether they're out or not. Then stand by your work. If you're concerned that you didn't do a good job, then talk to people before you bother to release a product. The difference is that with the same narrative as with Dragonspear cropping of the talk of tokenism, I find it hollow conversation ... if the dilemma or participation in the story was about trans-related issue, why not? At the same time frankly it shouldn't matter if the character is known to be trans or not. Because why does it matter? And I think that's an equally compelling argument.

If we're going to make the argument of someone doing it just because of 'social awareness' or the critique of 'tokenism', then at least let's assume a metaphysical framework of the argument where the horse, indeed, goes before the cart.

I mean does a side character, by default, need to be interesting? How interesting is interesting? If we can agree there's good and bad representation, then there is no man's land of acceptability it seems for LGBTQ people in videogames. For example, if I decide to come out to someone at work because I feel like it's just going to eventually be something known if we continue working together, or because we persist with a friendly out-of-work relationship that extends to drinking, meeting with mutual friends, etc ... how interesting is that really?

Pretty boring. Not the least bit interesting. Unless you like exceedingly crushing real life mundanity on display. And in truth, nobody truly confronts the horror with humans being human very well. Even in life we look at people and refuse to see them as much more than above or below in the various social categories ... rarely do we confront the horror of looking at someone and seeing the same night of the world suspended in their eyes, as if the madness inherent to all lonely selves.

Life in general is an exercise in fighting boredom. Frankly I think there's a far better argument in why some trans people can't expect someone who is at odds with this humdrum existence of balancing fear of rejection, hostility, and being genuinely open and engaging with others likewise ... than a trans person being told they can never be seen as anything but a bit timid, or as if need to juggle the invisible weight of expectancy.

There's good and bad representation. But neutral is not bad, and bad is not bigoted.
 

LysanderNemoinis

Noble and oppressed Kekistani
Nov 8, 2010
468
0
0
erttheking said:
altnameJag said:
So, just checking, but to be clear, the perpetually offended are being offended that Bioware apologized to a different set of perpetually offended?
With some tumblr bashing to spice things up. Some things never change.
It's not being offended, just stating the painfully obvious. Yet again. This stuff always happens and developers are always surprised when they trigger one group or another. I honestly find it funny when the other side eats their own, as it's a rare occurrence.
 

Souplex

Souplex Killsplosion Awesomegasm
Jul 29, 2008
10,312
0
0
This seems a little backwards to me.
Sometimes trans people will be background characters, sometimes they'll be major characters.
Not everyone needs to be a major character.
 

Wrex Brogan

New member
Jan 28, 2016
803
0
0
The weird thing is it could've been solved if they'd just asked a Trans person about it before writing. 'Hey, do trans people ever casually dead-name themselves? No? Alright, cool, thanks', problem solved.

Ah well, was a lazy-game overall from the feel of things, fucking up a simple question isn't surprising.
 

pookie101

New member
Jul 5, 2015
1,162
0
0
as someone who is transgender. i have actually met other trans people who are that blunt and in your face about it. i dont know why and im sure as hell not like that but there it is

ah bioware they know better... they did a much more better transgender npc in inquisition that was much more subtle and realistic which also made the character more interesting. they were a fully formed person rather than just token transgender character 702

to me this game suffers from star gate universe syndrome.. something you start because you liked the previous things, that you like a character or two, you force yourself to play hoping it gets better until it hits you.. im not enjoying this at all
 

TheMysteriousGX

Elite Member
Legacy
Sep 16, 2014
8,316
6,822
118
Country
United States
Souplex said:
This seems a little backwards to me.
Sometimes trans people will be background characters, sometimes they'll be major characters.
Not everyone needs to be a major character.
Was there ever a trans major character? I'm blanking.

EDIT: well, I suppose there was that gal in Catherine.
 

Addendum_Forthcoming

Queen of the Edit
Feb 4, 2009
3,647
0
0
infohippie said:
Addendum_Forthcoming said:
I'm not totally sure, but I think we are actually saying pretty much the same thing.
Dead naming thing was dumb, but the idea of tokenism automatically because arbitrary interest level I feel like is way too much stress.

IF they added me as an adjunct character into, I don't know, Mass Effect: Back to the Future, then potentially after two or three associations with the main character I'll likely tell them I'm trans .... or hell, maybe the first time we meet depending on circumstances and how much I trust the main character. But it's not like this is interesting. It's just something that happens to me. I know it happens to me. It's normal. I'm boring in how I handle it, and the reason why I handle it at all the way I do is because of a fear of naked hostility, rejection, or because I trust someone enough to open up to them.

The idea that LGBTQ character have to either be invisible or 'interesting' ... but it seems like a pretty false dichotomy to me.
 

008Zulu_v1legacy

New member
Sep 6, 2009
6,019
0
0
altnameJag said:
So, just checking, but to be clear, the perpetually offended are being offended that Bioware apologized to a different set of perpetually offended?
I'm sorry.

OT; Given what we know about the outsourcig they did for this game, can it truly be said Bioware even made this?
 

Elijin

Elite Muppet
Legacy
Feb 15, 2009
2,067
1,028
118
I don't get it. You ask every NPC why they came to Andromeda. This one says they came for a new start, a new life. To be what they couldn't be back home. Then contextualizes it by saying they used to be called Stephan.

Its not like you walk up to them and they go 'HEY BUD, MY NAME IS HAINLY, BUT IT USED TO BE STEPHAN!'
 

TilMorrow

Diabolical Party Member
Jul 7, 2010
3,246
0
0
Bioware just casually slides over transgender character's background, Ryder doesn't bat an eyelid at it, people complain that a big song and dance isn't made over it. Maybe a thousand years in the future when we encounter an Alien species that technically is both genders at the same time all the time (Asari) we can also not give a toss about raising a fuss over this.
 

Bedinsis

Elite Member
Legacy
Escapist +
May 29, 2014
1,436
708
118
Country
Sweden
Nile McMorrow said:
Bioware just casually slides over transgender character's background, Ryder doesn't bat an eyelid at it, people complain that a big song and dance isn't made over it.
How do you figure that was the complaint with the characterization? If anything, Bioware's intended remedy is to make it more subtle.
 

TilMorrow

Diabolical Party Member
Jul 7, 2010
3,246
0
0
Bedinsis said:
Nile McMorrow said:
Bioware just casually slides over transgender character's background, Ryder doesn't bat an eyelid at it, people complain that a big song and dance isn't made over it.
How do you figure that was the complaint with the characterization? If anything, Bioware's intended remedy is to make it more subtle.
Well watching the clip it was clear Ryder had no problem with Hainly and Hainly has no problem expressing that her past is she was once a man and stuck in a boring old lab where she was uncomfortable with both and felt better now as a woman and explorer, but people clearly had a problem with how causally Hainly talks about it (not like they're in a universe where blue aliens flip flop over all gender roles like they're nothing). Clearly they feel there's not enough drama over the topic and the fact she feels comfortable enough to share it with Ryder is wrong. Bioware are now making it so that Hainly doesn't trust Ryder at all from the start and has to "work" to earn the information that she was once a man and that's meant to be a reward? Seriously wtf is wrong with people if you can't play a game set in a fictional universe where a minor character is comfortable with their self and doesn't make a fuss about it?
 

Bob_McMillan

Elite Member
Aug 28, 2014
5,186
1,862
118
Country
Philippines
That was the longest bit of dialogue I watched from this game, and as someone who just played through the original trilogy in the last month, the animation in Andromeda is just objectively worse. Forget the facial animations, even the way she stands looks wrong.

Anyway, I think there's nothing too wrong about it. It is just shitty writing. What I don't like is that they made it seem like Hainly went to Andromeda because of her being transgender, as if people wouldn't accept it back in the Milky Way. In a universe where people are completely comfortable fucking glowing octopi or lumbering bear things, that's just dumb.