BioWare Apologizes For Representation of Trans Character in Andromeda

sagitel

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This is why bio ware is constantly accused of being SJWs. They say nothing about mediocare game play, shitty story, shitty animations, terrible writing and game breaking bugs, yet they have to apologies for something that just doesn't matter. To people that don't care about the game. Just to get some politicaly correct points
 

Erttheking

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LysanderNemoinis said:
erttheking said:
altnameJag said:
So, just checking, but to be clear, the perpetually offended are being offended that Bioware apologized to a different set of perpetually offended?
With some tumblr bashing to spice things up. Some things never change.
It's not being offended, just stating the painfully obvious. Yet again. This stuff always happens and developers are always surprised when they trigger one group or another. I honestly find it funny when the other side eats their own, as it's a rare occurrence.
What's painfully obvious? That that was a horrifically written character? Because I don't recall events like this happening that often.

There you go, making this all about sides.
 

Artorius

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So basically, they are Apologizing to an SJW ham fisted in character and its portrayal?

Not the for the buggy and near unplayable pile of garbage that is the game?

good to know.
 

Kingjackl

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Elijin said:
I don't get it. You ask every NPC why they came to Andromeda. This one says they came for a new start, a new life. To be what they couldn't be back home. Then contextualizes it by saying they used to be called Stephan.

Its not like you walk up to them and they go 'HEY BUD, MY NAME IS HAINLY, BUT IT USED TO BE STEPHAN!'
From what I've read, the issue is with the fact she mentions her old name right off the bat. Laura Dale wrote an article on the subject (because of course she did) basically explaining that for most trans people, the old name (or "dead name") can be very private, painful to recollect and just generally not the sort of thing you blab to a stranger on the first meeting. You could defend it by saying "oh, I guess she's more open about it than most", but the obvious response to that is "then why did she travel to another galaxy to get away from it?"

Yeah, it is an optional, easily missed line of dialogue. I didn't even know about it on my playthrough because by the time I found this NPC, I had stopped bothering with investigative dialogue for every random. But it stands as a rare example where the folks who bash Bioware for including "token" minority characters are actually on the ball, because the character was obviously so tertiary and poorly-researched they felt they could just sneak it in and call it their good deed for the day. Contrast with Krem in DA:I where Patrick Weekes actually put in the effort, consulted trans people and made a more three-dimensional character as a result.
 

Naldan

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People would even complain if it was simply no big topic in the fictional setting when the whole process was a matter of pushing a button and nobody in this fictional universe would have an issue. Because the struggle of today must be the struggle of the future. Because I live now. Because me. Me, me, me.
 

Erttheking

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Naldan said:
People would even complain if it was simply no big topic in the fictional setting when the whole process was a matter of pushing a button and nobody in this fictional universe would have an issue. Because the struggle of today must be the struggle of the future. Because I live now. Because me. Me, me, me.
More like it was an incredibly sloppily written character who just blurted out that she was transgender for no real reason, that's what the criticisms I've seen have said, but continue to carry on with that strawman argument of yours
SirSullymore said:
infohippie said:
More like making the human squad mates boring as fuck for the fourth time in a row.
Hey, Jack and Zaeed were cool.
Until you get to his loyalty mission and he kills/tries to kill a few hundred people for the sake of revenge, and if you keep him on the team Shepard basically just says "hey, stop that," and he says, "oh, ok."

My impression of the character was...soured after that.
 

SmugFrog

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erttheking said:
Until you get to his loyalty mission and he kills/tries to kill a few hundred people for the sake of revenge, and if you keep him on the team Shepard basically just says "hey, stop that," and he says, "oh, ok."
Not sure if it happens every time, but my Shepard did punch him in the face to show him who's in charge. You see see the resentment in Zaeed's eyes, and I think it was a rough relationship - but I think Zaeed came to respect Shepard and everything Shepard had done. At the end of ME2, Zaeed was a loyal member of the team. I think there was a lot of character development in those games, some better written than others (Garrus) - Zaeed obviously falls a little flat as it was DLC for the sake of DLC IMO, but I still came to like the character.
 

AzrealMaximillion

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The character was written in a very poor manner. Much like the rest of the game. There have been plenty of games (including previous Bioware games) that handled the LGBT community and the issues of bigotry better than Andromeda did. They're writing sloppily done cultural monoliths in place of actual characters that happen to be a part of a certain culture.
 

Naldan

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erttheking said:
More like it was an incredibly sloppily written character who just blurted out that she was transgender for no real reason, that's what the criticisms I've seen have said, but continue to carry on with that strawman argument of yours
Who assesses the quality of the writing? You? When it becomes casual, why not talking about it when it has context, like why a name is different on a list of names? Or is it Bioware, which first writes, reviews, releases the written text and then only after complaints pulls back.

If it was for no real reason, I'd be on board. But you're simply wrong and nothing else in this case.

So you're making up strawmen and 'counter' them with strawmen. You do see that, do you not? And why do you allege people of doing something, being dismissive in tone without engaging in a conservation first? Is it really that satisfying? Or are you just in a heat, defending something from every and all you feel to be opposing your immediate opinion?

AzrealMaximillion said:
The character was written in a very poor manner. Much like the rest of the game. There have been plenty of games (including previous Bioware games) that handled the LGBT community and the issues of bigotry better than Andromeda did. They're writing sloppily done cultural monoliths in place of actual characters that happen to be a part of a certain culture.
Maybe you can help me here. What if in the future, there is no opposition to LGBT and it becomes like tanning? What if it simply is no issue for anyone in the ME universe? And the context was given - the difference in name. And when the topic at hand is simply such a non-issue like being good at math in grade school or, I don't know, being of a religion in the past and now being an atheist for example. Why does it have to be something you have to trust someone in order to tell them?

Of course, if it is simply said just in order to say that - sure. But her name got changed and the list was false. She cleared that up. Am I missing something here?

And please don't be dismissive. Sorry for saying this preemptively, but... let's just say that it seems to be hard to come across as genuine enough over the internet when it comes to certain topics. I grew up and lived in a village with aroung 200 people. All straight afaik. Never met anyone close to LGBT until I was I think 24 and still not knowing many.
 

TheMysteriousGX

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Naldan said:
So you're making up strawmen and 'counter' them with strawmen. You do see that, do you not? And why do you allege people of doing something, being dismissive in tone without engaging in a conservation first? Is it really that satisfying? Or are you just in a heat, defending something from every and all you feel to be opposing your immediate opinion?
Considering the comment of yours Ert was responding to was a textbook example of a straw man argument, glass houses, dude.
 

Erttheking

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Naldan said:
erttheking said:
More like it was an incredibly sloppily written character who just blurted out that she was transgender for no real reason, that's what the criticisms I've seen have said, but continue to carry on with that strawman argument of yours
Who assesses the quality of the writing? You? When it becomes casual, why not talking about it when it has context, like why a name is different on a list of names? Or is it Bioware, which first writes, reviews, releases the written text and then only after complaints pulls back.

If it was for no real reason, I'd be on board. But you're simply wrong and nothing else in this case.

So you're making up strawmen and 'counter' them with strawmen. You do see that, do you not? And why do you allege people of doing something, being dismissive in tone without engaging a conservation first? Is it really that satisfying?
...Is that supposed to be a serious question? Who assesses the quality of writing? Everyone. That's who. Everyone who voices their opinion on something is assessing the quality of writing. I don't see how Bioware is supposed to be "better" or whatever point you are trying to make (seriously, I have no idea where you're going with that) particularly when the general consensus seems to be that the writing is rather iffy this time around.

So, wait, I'm wrong because of your non-sequitur on who can demand the quality of writing? I don't follow.

Hello pot, my name is kettle. You're black. Because that's exactly what you were doing in your post that I replied to. So, to answer your question, because you (and in this case I mean personally you, not general you) reap what you sow. Except I really didn't make up strawman arguments.
 

Souplex

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altnameJag said:
Souplex said:
This seems a little backwards to me.
Sometimes trans people will be background characters, sometimes they'll be major characters.
Not everyone needs to be a major character.
Was there ever a trans major character? I'm blanking.

EDIT: well, I suppose there was that gal in Catherine.
There was also Krem in Inquisition. One step below a party member there.
 

Naldan

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erttheking said:
Yes, I see it now. While watching the video, I got heavily distracted, twice, and understood that the player had the opportunity to get information from a list. A list of names. One of that names was Stephano. And so on.

Anyway, I rewatched that video now, again, and see what people really mean. I'm sorry for that.

Still, my question stands: When, in the future, it really is no issue at all being transgender, and then being asked as to why one gets on a trip to a new galaxy, pioneering essentially, starting a new life (that goes for the majority on the Andromeda, afaik) then why does it have to be such a big mistery? When there is no chance of receiving repercussions and it is like tanning for example, why does it have to be such a big deal?

My original point was and still is that people don't consider this, that it has to be a struggle, that transgender characters have to be something major.

For example: When I write Sci-Fi, I litteraly roll a dice to determine physical traits for minor characters that don't make a major impact on how the character behaves. Race, gender - in this fictional future, it doesn't matter almost at all. Why does it have to be a major trait?

If it is for identificational purpouses, then the problem isn't that this minor character is supposedly written sloppily. It is that no additional, important character share the traits LGBT characters can identify with, concentrating on such a non-issue instead.

And that is why I said "Me, me, me". Because in my opinion, that such traits don't matter at all for minor characters. Is this really a strawman?

Maybe I communicated that poorly. Then take this statement instead: Concentrate on real issues like underrepresentation in major plots. Otherwise, it comes across as egoistical hyper-sensitivity. Like in this case.

Like "Oh, your token character has no real reason to tell that she originally was male! Now, that offends me!" "Oh, we will totally fix our token character in order to have a proper token that works for 3 lines of dialogue and doesn't hurt anyone's feelings, satisfying everyone instead!" "Yeah, that is all we LGBT-people care about! But next time, make a better minor character!"
 

Erttheking

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Naldan said:
No one is arguing that it should be a struggle. The thing is, just having a character idly blurt out that they're transgender to someone they just met for the first time is taking a sledgehammer to the knee caps of immersion. The person doesn't feel real. It'd be like if you walked up to a character and they just blurted out how that they're homosexual, or mixed race, or an atheist. People don't freaking talk or act like that. I don't start conversations by informing people of my heterosexuality, my CIS-gendered-ness, political affiliations or status as an agnostic.

Stuff like that basically turns a character into a token. They're there because of diversity and that diversity is the only identity that they have. I see a lot of accusations of tokenism leveled at characters who break the mold in gaming, and this is one of the times where the label actually applies. Because, really, the only thing that matters about this character is "is transexual." That's the only identity she really has and it's depressingly on display.
 

Karathos

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Out of everything wrong with the game in its current state, THIS is what they choose to apologize for? Christ, come on...

Why must Bioware continue with this tradition of ham-fisted adding of checklist-characters. I'm fine with having diverse characters, but WRITE THEM PROPERLY for goodness sake. This is an insult to everyone regardless of identities.
 

Naldan

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erttheking said:
Naldan said:
No one is arguing that it should be a struggle. The thing is, just having a character idly blurt out that they're transgender to someone they just met for the first time is taking a sledgehammer to the knee caps of immersion. The person doesn't feel real. It'd be like if you walked up to a character and they just blurted out how that they're homosexual, or mixed race, or an atheist. People don't freaking talk or act like that. I don't start conversations by informing people of my heterosexuality, my CIS-gendered-ness, political affiliations or status as an agnostic.

Stuff like that basically turns a character into a token. They're there because of diversity and that diversity is the only identity that they have. I see a lot of accusations of tokenism leveled at characters who break the mold in gaming, and this is one of the times where the label actually applies. Because, really, the only thing that matters about this character is "is transexual." That's the only identity she really has and it's depressingly on display.
But she got asked by the player character as to why she starts a new life, light-years away from home. That isn't without any real reason.

By the way: Is she the only trans-character in the game?

And again: The main issue, as far as I can see, is that there is no major trans-character.

Of course: If there was a major trans-gendered character and all they did was talking about that and also doing this for no reason, then yes, it would also be the same. Reminds me of that fanfic Baldur's Gate addon people actually sold.

But that isn't the case here. "Why are you starting a new life?" "Because I want to start from the beginning, changing my sex triggered that." may also be "Why does your skin get darker every monday?" "Because I go to a tanning bed (solarium?) every monday."
 

Erttheking

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Naldan said:
erttheking said:
Naldan said:
No one is arguing that it should be a struggle. The thing is, just having a character idly blurt out that they're transgender to someone they just met for the first time is taking a sledgehammer to the knee caps of immersion. The person doesn't feel real. It'd be like if you walked up to a character and they just blurted out how that they're homosexual, or mixed race, or an atheist. People don't freaking talk or act like that. I don't start conversations by informing people of my heterosexuality, my CIS-gendered-ness, political affiliations or status as an agnostic.

Stuff like that basically turns a character into a token. They're there because of diversity and that diversity is the only identity that they have. I see a lot of accusations of tokenism leveled at characters who break the mold in gaming, and this is one of the times where the label actually applies. Because, really, the only thing that matters about this character is "is transexual." That's the only identity she really has and it's depressingly on display.
But she got asked by the player character as to why she starts a new life, light-years away from home. That isn't without any real reason.
Yes, but there's a lot of concepts in games where they clearly implemented the idea first and then worked backwards to come up with justifications for how that works. Quiet from MGSV comes to mind. Now sometimes this can work, I doubt anyone was complaining about the robot dinos being important in Horizon: Zero Dawn, but this? This is just sloppy, nothing on top of it. And even then, most people don't go idly telling their entire backstories with just a simple prompt. Even if they don't consider it a big deal, people just don't give their life stories to someone that they just met.