BioWare Co-Founder: RPGs Are Becoming "Less Relevant"

ultrachicken

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Sensationalist title much?

Anyways, I disagree with what he says, because even Call of Duty has adapted some RPG elements to multiplayer, so I think that they are becoming more relevant than ever.

Also, it seems like everything to come out of Bioware's mouth recently has inspired eruptions of fury from fans.
 
Dec 16, 2009
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Cheshire the Cat said:
Sorry Mr Zeschuk, what was that? I could not hear you what with EAs hand up your ass working you like a fucking puppet.

Its okay, Dragon Age was never that good anyway so I do not mind you screwing that up and I lost most my hope for Mass Effect after you stripped out most the story and focused on turning it into a 3rd rate Gears of War.
So yes, I will play ME3 just to finish the trilogy and then you can fade into obscurity where you belong making generic 3rd person shooters and poorly done hack n slash games.
this is exactly how i feel, except for the DA:O comment; I quite enjoyed Origins
 

Strazdas

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at first, i was going to say he is wrong, then i looked at the top played games, and realized he was right. While RPG elements may bleed into other games now, RPG is dieing. Sure there are titles like Witcher, which bring big attention, but just look at what attention battlefield is getting.
 

octafish

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CD Projeckt, Obsidian, Bethesda, Spiderweb Software, and now it looks like Eidos Montreal as well. I'll miss Bioware but they have been coasting for a while now.
 

sumanoskae

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Let me try to wrap my head around what the problem is here; You guys think RPG's are becoming less relevant because they can't be defined?. Well I can fix that problem for you. Role Playing Games are games that focus on the process of developing a character, via story or gameplay. While many great games defy genre, that's what constitutes an RPG. Now, a truly great game may work equally well as an action game and still be just as rich an RPG experience, but here's something that always made me partial to RPG's.

An RPG isn't defined by it's core gameplay, and RPG is defined by the systems surrounding the core gameplay. Thus, if an RPG plays like a shooter but retains the same level of customization, it's still an RPG.

I don't think RPG's are becoming less relevant, I think the very concept of a genre is becoming less relevant.

I don't think RPG's are disappearing, I think other games are becoming more like RPG's. Choice is the one of, if not the most, unique assets of gaming, and arguably it's best, and choice is an element first popularized by RPG's, and other genre's are beginning to understand how important it is. Other games used choice before RPG's, RPG's were just the first ones to do so on purpose and above all else. Now other games are taking the logical step forward and RPG's aren't as limited in core gameplay anymore. They're meeting in the middle, so to speak.

TL,DR Version: RPG's are spreading themselves all over the place, some games can no longer be called RPG's because the old standard of what makes an RPG can be applied to so many different things.

Now that's out of the way. I'm making a charitable assumption that Bioware really meant what they said, and weren't just looking for an easier way to say "We're tired of RPG's because we don't know where the genre can go from here". Which would be sad, as good Role Playing Games are hard enough to come by without their patron saints giving up. So forgive me for sounding smug, Bioware, but... are you fucking serious?.

You guys really can't think of anything else to do with RPG's?, NONE of you?, I'VE WRITTEN UP WAYS TO EXPAND ON RPG'S!. Even your fans can come up with designs, you can't honestly expect us to believe that you guys can't. Probably not in two year development cycles. Maybe you guys just need to take a break and hire some new talent, give your enthusiasm some room to grow. If TOR goes well you should have a steady source of income.

I'd understand if it was about money, but when you tried to make Dragon Age more like an action game it didn't do as well. And Mass Effect 2 sold great, but everyone acknowledged the problems it had with it's RPG elements. I'd like to know what this guy thinks the word relevant means, because I don't think we agree. Furthermore, I'd like to know what they consider to be "Relevant".

In short, THAT'S FUCKING STUPID!.

I suppose that this guy could just be a terrible spokesman, and didn't research what the word "Relevance" means, and that Bioware are at this very moment concocting new and exciting ways to explode our heads with sheer RPG awesomeness. And Fable II could have been a great game and not disappointing in any way shape or form.
 

GestaltEsper

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ultrachicken said:
Sensationalist title much?
Tin Man said:
When I read the original article I thought, 'The Escapist is winding up its forum base yet again, wheeeee!', and figured I'd read through a few pages of people taking a fair comment from someone in a strong position to basically know what he's talking about, and turn it into more fuel for the rage and general butthurt that their exact definition of a very vague genre isn't catered to by Bioware.

And I wasn't disappointed.
Hey, least it's not as bad as the Rage fiasco last week.
 

mattaui

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As this thread shows, a lot of people have a lot of different, sometimes conflicting, definitions of what makes a game an RPG. The very meaning of the words, a game where you play a role, makes just about every game an RPG by the most literal definition. Since that's not helpful, we have to go back to the games that were initially called RPGs.

Back in the olden days of tabletop gaming, if you said you played RPGs, no one thought you played wargames or boardgames, they knew just what you meant. Character sheets, dice, rule books, maybe some miniatures, maybe some graph paper. You'd gain experience, you'd improve your character and you'd find better gear so you could fight tougher stuff, find better gear and get ever more powerful until your character died, you quit playing or the campaign ended.

With the rise of console and PC games that mimicked RPGs, in the beginning, there still wasn't a lot of difference among the vast majority of games. Maybe the interface was different, maybe you were solo instead of having a party, but you still had stats, gear and opponents that went up in difficulty. More stats, more gear, bigger opponents, and so on.

Now we're in the age (and have been for awhile) of hybridized RPGs. What this article seems to be saying, and what we're experiencing in the marketplace, is that a whole lot of people really don't care about choosing stats, selecting gear and plotting out character advancement. They just want to immerse themselves in a world with as low a barrier to entry as possible and be presented with some narrative choices, but not worry so much about the rest. You're still playing a role, but it's a very predefined one, and the story path, while branching here and there, tends to lead you right along the same storyline. You can't visit Location C until you've done A and B, or while you can visit many different locations, it doesn't matter which location you visit first and they don't have much impact on the rest of the story, providing more of an illusion of choice.

Just to pick two examples, compare Fallout New Vegas with Mass Effect. Right out of the gate, your character in FNV has very little that defines him or her, except that he was a courier and had something unpleasant happen to him, but beyond that the sky is the limit. On the other hand, Sheppard from ME has an extremely hemmed in story, and while choices can be made during gameplay that will impact the outcome, there are many key elements that simply can't be changed. They're both hybrid RPG-FPS games, but FNV retains almost all of the characteristics of the original definition of RPG, while ME strips out quite a lot in the name of a more streamlined and curated narrative.
 

Lonan

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omegawyrm said:
Lonan said:
He's completely right. RPG's are essentially a relic of the past. When video games first started, and there were only about 100 pixels, it was essentially a small technological step up from something like Dungeons and Dragons. The computer did the dice rolling, made a terrible graphical version of you and you're enemies, and the player would go around trying to collect items to make the fictional world seem bigger and more immersive. Everyone would have aspects of Dungeons and Dragons, such as numbers and stats, and items to improve their stats. There would be a text based story to guide you along, and that was considered fun three decades ago. It was a very primitive time.

Fast forward to the 21st century, and we now have realistic graphics, enemies that react when you shoot them, massive artistic environments and a huge emersion. It?s no longer necessary to keep scores and stats on pieces of paper. It?s no longer necessary to tediously search for items which completely interrupt the flow of an otherwise incredible experience (looking at you Mass Effect and Bioshock) because numbers in video games are practically dead. There?s no reason to put them on life support by introducing tedium, repetition, and annoyance into the players experience and calling it integral to gameplay. As Yahtzee said, when criticising the scanning part of Mass Effect 2, ?This is supposed to be an exciting space adventure! Commander Shepard should acquire resources by shooting them out of a monsters face, or by extracting them from the throats of alien hotties with his tongue.? When I pay for a game with my hard earned money, I don?t want it to throw a clipboard at me and call it fun. Clipboards and stats are for work. Video games are for fun.

As for plot being related to RPG's, I look for plot in videogames, and there are few games fun enough for me to play them if they don?t have a good plot. However, tediously upgrading items and counting stats is not at all necessary. Harry Potter didn?t spend half an hour repairing, selling, and upgrading at the vendor before defeating Lord Voldemort, Luke Skywalker didn?t run around Endor trying to collect items to defeat Darth Vader, and the Fellowship of the Ring didn?t have to look at an annoying item screen before battling to save Middle Earth. These are just annoying relics from a technologically inferior age. Let?s get rid of them so I don?t have to work when I want to have fun at the end of the day.
I could not possibly disagree with this post more, and I also think you're missing what the man's point was.
What did you think his point was? How do you think I missed it? What do you disagree with in my post?
 

pppppppppppppppppp

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BreakfastMan said:
He might have a point. RPG as it stands now is not a very good descriptor, being that the descriptor is incredibly vague. It basically means that "this game has a good story" now, since nearly every game is getting RPG elements, and when every game is an RPG, no game is. I think he might be right. I might even agree with him a little.
Eh, it's still a more defined genre than "Action-Adventure"
 

Frenger

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Found this interview with Todd Howard(Bethesda) that I think hit the nail perfectly. It also sums up some of the comments on JRPG's here(at least for me). Every other game have rpg elements in them, and some of them pull it off quite well, if not better in some cases. Personally I don't think Bioware will ever go back to Dragon Age: Origins, despite it being their biggest success( I read the numbers somewhere, don't recall where now). And I find that really strange, isn't it a good idea to build on good ideas rather than leaving them on the cutting floor? Anyway, here it goes:

 

Krantos

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Yes, nearly all genres are borrowing elements from RPGs. Totally not relevant.

Kidding aside, I know where he's coming from and I still don't buy it. The TERM RPG has become mostly meaningless since there are so many games that use RPG elements.

That, however, doesn't mean that RPGs themselves are irrelevant. Take Skyrim for example. That's shaping up to be one of the biggest games this holiday season, and it's hard to be more RPG than TES.
 

Therumancer

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Nov 28, 2007
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Well my thoughts here are that Bioware's betrayal of it's core audience is now complete. Bioware has spent quite a while denying that it's games weren't RPGs, and making arguements based on trying to re-define what "RPG" means in a hope of convincing the fanbase that made them what they are that it was true.

As I've been saying for a while though, this is pretty much the same thing you see with music bands and any other group that sells out. Bioware has gotten big enough, especially through it's alliance with Activision where it figures it doesn't need it's core audience anymore. Making money and being a success is no longer enough, when they can make even more money by dealing with the increasingly casual, lower human denominator that has been brought into gaming. Overall with shooters being relatively cheap and easy to produce compared to RPGs, a bigger audience due to their simplicity, and more money brought in. What's more this allows Bioware their budget and spent more of it on voicework and cinematics, which means being able to hire and hobnob with various celebrities. More money, and meeting more famous people and such, with less work? They look at that and pretty much figure "well F@ck the people who allowed us to get this far, we don't owe them anything despite the fact that we'd be nothing without their support, even if a lot of that support came from the simple fact that we were one of the ONLY western developers making RPGs".

What I'm saying is not flattering, and I know a lot of people have no problem with that (people who like conversational shooters as opposed to RPGs), or otherwise are going to disagree with what I'm saying, but hey... that's the bottom line.

A bit part of this is that to design a game like say "Dragon Age: Origins" involves creating and balancing an entire game engine and system of internally consistant mechanics that can be controlled by the player. In comparison shooters come largely "out of the box" which is why they are pretty close to universal, they are all developed using the same basic engines and toolboxes as opposed to being designed from the ground up in most cases. Going with the whole "conversational shooter" thing allows them to say cater to the "Gears Of War" crowd, by simply copying it's mechanics, and then hiring a bunch of voice actors and celebrities to hang out and record dialogue with them, which while expensive is doubtlessly fun for the people involved who get to go "OMG, I actually got to meet so and so" and so on.

Don't get me wrong, I'm not begruding Bioware's right to have fun and make a profit. I just think there is a point at which such things go too far. They were a successful and functional company making RPGs, and I think they could justify staying in that niche very easily, and that is what the audience that made them tends to want even if a lot of the newer fans brought in by the conversational shooters and such do not.

What's more, having watched the industry for a while this seems like a train wreck waiting to happen. I say this because while it's going to be successful for a while the whole shooter market is nothing but incestuous. Bioware jumps in by embracing their whole conversational gimmick, and just like cover based shooting, your going to see everyone else increasingly jumping in to do the same thing (it's already going on to an extent). Then Bioware will wind up just becoming another shooter producer in the long run especially seeing as it's pretty much a "follow the leader" attitude that caused this to begin with.

The RPG niche at least puts Bioware in the position of doing something nobody else is, and adds a bit of variety to the gaming market. It also doesn't put them into direct competition with other shooter producers. Given that they work for Activision and were largely purchused due to their RPG development abillity, it occurs to me that they are pretty much going to be competing with their other in-house shooter developers. It makes me wonder how long it will be before Bioware is cannibalized into those other studios, or the opposite happens, and we simply wind up with a complete loss of identity no matter what name they happen to use. This isn't exactly the destuction of Bioware in a literal sense, but it's something we've seen before, and really with that will go the hopes for some really great game franchises to ever see true continuation.

In the end Bioware doesn't want to make great games, they want to make profitable games, they are kind of gambling that they will be able to do what everyone else is doing except better than they do. Once they blend into that crowd they might as well not be Bioware anymore.
 

Torrasque

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GestaltEsper said:
ultrachicken said:
Sensationalist title much?
Tin Man said:
When I read the original article I thought, 'The Escapist is winding up its forum base yet again, wheeeee!', and figured I'd read through a few pages of people taking a fair comment from someone in a strong position to basically know what he's talking about, and turn it into more fuel for the rage and general butthurt that their exact definition of a very vague genre isn't catered to by Bioware.

And I wasn't disappointed.
Hey, least it's not as bad as the Rage fiasco last week.
Oh god... Don't remind me of that mess =|
FIrst time I've ever seen the forums in that bad a state.