BioWare: Final Fantasy XIII is Not an RPG

Hurr Durr Derp

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Onyx Oblivion said:
Does it have stats and leveling as a focus in combat? Then it's an RPG.

Unless he's also saying that stuff like Diablo and MMORPGs aren't RPGs?

Besides, when the genre was named, anything with dialogue and a plot above "Eat Dots" was pretty much an RPG.
A copypasted reply to a copypasted statement:

My copy of Football Manager 2010 is loaded with stats. It has more stats than FF13, ME2, and every GTA game combined. The characters 'fight' using their stats and skills, they even gain 'experience' and 'level up' their attributes with enough training. Still, I would find it very difficult to take you seriously if you were to claim that FM'10 is more of an RPG than any of the other titles I mentioned.

Diablo isn't more of an RPG than ME2. It's a hack&slash dungeon crawler. It has more in common with any given Roguelike than an RPG. Mumorpegers can be more RPG-like than any other genre currently in existence if you choose them to be (there's that magic word again: choice).

When the genre was named, it was the name of a pen-and-paper game that was all about endless choice. The level of choice from a PnP RPG still can't be approximated by a CRPG, but JRPGs aren't even trying.
 

Lord_Gremlin

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Gvaz said:
If you define a role playing game by turn based combat where you choose actions and have them play out, sure X game is an rpg.

If you want to press X and watch things play out instead of contributing more (ff13, heavy rain) then it's not an rpg, it's an interactive movie.

It doesn't help ff13's case that it's a really really bad game, but hey, FF lovers would eat shit on a plate if it had squeenix's name on it
You, good sir, got it absolutely right.
 

Legion

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Deofuta said:
If the game focuses upon playing a role. Then its an RPG. The combat system is regardless.
Exactly. With Mass Effect for example you choose class, background, name and gender to begin with. In the game you decide make choices that affect the outcome of the ending, as well as the consequences in the sequels. Not to mention many smaller choices that affect the finer elements of the game-play as well as NPC interactions.

Just because Mass Effect 2 has less statistics thrown around doesn't make it any less of an RPG.
 

Abedeus

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Brad Shepard said:
Im sorry, I love Bioware and all, but they need to shut up.

Square might have missed the bullseye on ff13 a bit, but its still a awesome game with a awesome story.

Dont insult your elders, if you get what i mean.
They didn't say it's a bad game. Or that they make bad games.

They just don't consider FF XIII an RPG.
 

Dogstile

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Brad Shepard said:
Im sorry, I love Bioware and all, but they need to shut up.

Square might have missed the bullseye on ff13 a bit, but its still a awesome game with a awesome story.

Dont insult your elders, if you get what i mean.
One person from bioware.

And why not? If your elder is clearly trying to be something it isn't, then someone is well within their rights to call them out on it.
 

Abedeus

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Hurr Durr Derp said:
Onyx Oblivion said:
Does it have stats and leveling as a focus in combat? Then it's an RPG.

Unless he's also saying that stuff like Diablo and MMORPGs aren't RPGs?

Besides, when the genre was named, anything with dialogue and a plot above "Eat Dots" was pretty much an RPG.
A copypasted reply to a copypasted statement:

My copy of Football Manager 2010 is loaded with stats. It has more stats than FF13, ME2, and every GTA game combined. The characters 'fight' using their stats and skills, they even gain 'experience' and 'level up' their attributes with enough training. Still, I would find it very difficult to take you seriously if you were to claim that FM'10 is more of an RPG than any of the other titles I mentioned.

Diablo isn't more of an RPG than ME2. It's a hack&slash dungeon crawler. It has more in common with any given Roguelike than an RPG. Mumorpegers can be more RPG-like than any other genre currently in existence if you choose them to be (there's that magic word again: choice).

When the genre was named, it was the name of a pen-and-paper game that was all about endless choice. The level of choice from a PnP RPG still can't be approximated by a CRPG, but JRPGs aren't even trying.
Just to add something to your post - because I agree with almost everything.

MOST of the RPGs are not trying. Shin Megami Tensei are almost as devoted to freedom of choice as Bioware. Hell, in Devil Survivor, you must weigh every pro and con before choosing another mission or storyline fight - clock advances by 30 minutes every time you do so, so if you decide to fight someone instead of saving another person, you might end up losing that person instead of gaining a party member.
 

Dr. wonderful

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I really don't care about what does it as an RPG.

It's the same damn thing, doing it driffent ways. It's dosen't matter who you save; the world, princcess, sister, your own ass, it's about two things.

The road getting to where you going
and leveling up charisma baby.
 

jtesauro

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Brad Shepard said:
Im sorry, I love Bioware and all, but they need to shut up.

Square might have missed the bullseye on ff13 a bit, but its still a awesome game with a awesome story.

Dont insult your elders, if you get what i mean.
With respect, no, they really don't. A journalist asked them a question, they gave an answer. As one of the forefront developers of RPG's in gaming right now, that's going to keep happening, and they have the right to say whatever they like. Just as SE does.

In no point did they say FF13 wasn't an awesome game, just that it doesn't fit what alot of people feel makes an RPG these days. And while I enjoyed FF13 more then I expected, I happen to agree with this viewpoint.

Doesn't make it a bad game, but it does mean the genre has evolved and changed considerably over the years.
 

Hurr Durr Derp

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Abedeus said:
Hurr Durr Derp said:
Onyx Oblivion said:
Does it have stats and leveling as a focus in combat? Then it's an RPG.

Unless he's also saying that stuff like Diablo and MMORPGs aren't RPGs?

Besides, when the genre was named, anything with dialogue and a plot above "Eat Dots" was pretty much an RPG.
A copypasted reply to a copypasted statement:

My copy of Football Manager 2010 is loaded with stats. It has more stats than FF13, ME2, and every GTA game combined. The characters 'fight' using their stats and skills, they even gain 'experience' and 'level up' their attributes with enough training. Still, I would find it very difficult to take you seriously if you were to claim that FM'10 is more of an RPG than any of the other titles I mentioned.

Diablo isn't more of an RPG than ME2. It's a hack&slash dungeon crawler. It has more in common with any given Roguelike than an RPG. Mumorpegers can be more RPG-like than any other genre currently in existence if you choose them to be (there's that magic word again: choice).

When the genre was named, it was the name of a pen-and-paper game that was all about endless choice. The level of choice from a PnP RPG still can't be approximated by a CRPG, but JRPGs aren't even trying.
Just to add something to your post - because I agree with almost everything.

MOST of the RPGs are not trying. Shin Megami Tensei are almost as devoted to freedom of choice as Bioware. Hell, in Devil Survivor, you must weigh every pro and con before choosing another mission or storyline fight - clock advances by 30 minutes every time you do so, so if you decide to fight someone instead of saving another person, you might end up losing that person instead of gaining a party member.
Ah, true enough. I made the mistake of treating Final Fantasy as "all JRPGs" there. My bad. I loved Devil Survivor since I'm a huge fan of turn-based strategy games, so you'd think I'd know better.
 

Jared

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I can see the point but I totally disagree.


I think this is a case of bio getting too cocky
 

NotMePleaseIgnore

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Gvaz said:
If you define a role playing game by turn based combat where you choose actions and have them play out, sure X game is an rpg.

If you want to press X and watch things play out instead of contributing more (ff13, heavy rain) then it's not an rpg, it's an interactive movie.

It doesn't help ff13's case that it's a really really bad game, but hey, FF lovers would eat shit on a plate if it had squeenix's name on it
^^Clearly never played either of those two games...

You don't make any choices, you don't create a character, you don't live your character... I don't know what those are - adventure games maybe? But they're not RPG's."
A game where you don't make any choices and don't live your character doesn't even sound like an action game to me; sounds more like he's insulting action games than FF13. Where do you draw the line between an action game with RPG mechanics and an RPG?
 

Soviet Heavy

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I'm a fan of Bioware, but aren't they also the people who are refusing to address homosexuality in Mass Effect 2 because they consider it like a PG-13 action movie?
 

bjj hero

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Brad Shepard said:
Im sorry, I love Bioware and all, but they need to shut up.

Square might have missed the bullseye on ff13 a bit, but its still a awesome game with a awesome story.

Dont insult your elders, if you get what i mean.
There is nothing wrong with insulting your elders if they are doing something wrong. My "elders" engineered the financial crisis. Should I keep quiet?

You seem to have missed the point anyway. It's not an insult to say that FF13 is not an RPG. There are lots of good games that are not RPGs. He is saying it is more of an Adventure game. I think I agree.

Deofuta said:
If the game focuses upon playing a role. Then its an RPG. The combat system is regardless.
So Gears of War is an RPG? I play the role of Marcus Phoenix...
 

Madmanonfire

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BrotherRool said:
FF's have always defined their RPGness as turn based combat, high customization of equipment, story based focus and creating a huge new world.

FFXIII does all this exactly like it's predecessors. The only real difference is a lack of towns and sidequests, which I don't feel define a JRPG but are far more valid
HAH! Please tell me you're joking.
FF13 does not have many weapons for each person, and they all need to be upgraded to actually be of use. Also, the accessories don't vary that much. It's either raising resistances, raising power, or buff effects for the most part. And that's it for "customization of equipment."

On topic, I agree. Like it was said before, the game is an interactive movie most of the time, and the battles feel more like an RTS game than an RPG, given how lazy it has become.
After I beat the game, I got bored of it immediately. There's just nothing fun to do afterwards, except constantly grind for getting more HP boosts.
 

LiquidGrape

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Soviet Heavy said:
I'm a fan of Bioware, but aren't they also the people who are refusing to address homosexuality in Mass Effect 2 because they consider it like a PG-13 action movie?
Indeed. And the rating for ME2 is mature. And it's even more prudish than the original.
Try solving that equation.
 

JeanLuc761

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Arhy said:
A game where you don't make any choices and don't live your character doesn't even sound like an action game to me; sounds more like he's insulting action games than FF13. Where do you draw the line between an action game with RPG mechanics and an RPG?
In my opinion, the difference comes down to the game's ability to make you feel like who you are playing as. For me, Mass Effect is completely unmatched in immersion; I actually feel like I am Commander Shepard when I'm playing. I have consequences for my action; I can affect the people around me in ways that I choose. Same goes for Fallout 3.

Any game in which I am able to create my character as I see fit and live the character as I would live it makes the game a true RPG. Some could make the argument (from a gameplay standpoint) that "Well, you can play Crysis or Final Fantasy any way you want, therefore isn't that an RPG?"

I'd have to disagree. Yes, I can play those according to my preferred style (more or less, Final Fantasy tends to be constrictive), but I don't get to have any impact on my character or the storyline as a whole. I'm not saying that the game has to be huge and open-world for it to be an RPG, what I'm saying is that I need to BE the character, and I think Bioware is simply saying that Final Fantasy has too many pre-defined and unalterable aspects, most importantly the set-in-stone player character, to be defined as an RPG by modern standards.
 

AndreyC

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The main problem is people keep comparing WRPGs to JRPGs like they're the same genre. They look like they are (wow, the names are almost the same!) but they aren't, really. The thing is: Role Playing Game was "invented" in america, with "pen-and-paper" Dungeons and Dragons. Back in the days, RPGs didn't have that much focus in "choice" and "character creation" from a plot standpoint. You had choices, but they were all pretty much related to combat and survival in dungeons (choosing attacks, customizing equipment). In truth, there was not a lot of plot development, really. It was all about killing big Dragons and getting XP. The RPG was then transported and localized to Japan, in the form of eletronic games. See, for them, RPGs were pretty much created as videogames (pen-and-paper RPGs weren't that popular in Japan). For japanese people, the "template" for what RPG means is Dragon Quest I, Final Fantasy I, Phantasy Star etc. They evolved from that primitive dungeon crawling into creating memorable characters and stories... All the "Non-linear plot, non-linear character creation, huge amount of interaction with the player etc" was not what defined a RPG back then, that's what define more recent pen-and-paper western RPGs, and that's what Western Eletronic RPGs try to simulate.

The thing is: although the JRPG genre was created inspired by the first western pen-and-paper RPG adventures, it gained a life of its own. They only took reference for the first games, and after that, evolution in JRPGs was totally independent from the evolution of western RPGs, eletronic or not. But when it comes to western eletronic RPGs, they're highly dependent on their "pen-and-paper" counterparts even now.

"Character creation", back when RPGs were invented, meant basicly to choose classes/abilities for your character. "Character interpretation" meant basicly to govern your character through a Dungeon, not to make moral choices that affect your karma or anything like this.

More recent additions to the pen-and-paper RPGs changed that paradigm. Systems like the "storyteller" (introduced in 1991, way after eletronic RPGs were introduced in Japan) had a heavy emphasys on interpratation and interection between NPCs and the player. The focus of this system is basically to build a character from scratch and to interpret him deeply, even psychologically, and from the interactions between players and NPCs, construct a plot, a "chronicle". That's pretty much what western eletronic RPGs have been trying to simulate until now, and that's the reference western people have for the term "RPG".

TLDR: Bioware is dumb to compare a JRPG to a modern Western RPG template. Period.
 

Kenjitsuka

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I think it was an RPG, quite restrictive, but not a genrebreaking experience.

What is it with developers trying to scrape publicity by bashing the works of others?
Or usually just bashing the other's opinion...
Do it in a funny movie like Bad Company 1 did to Metal Gear, at least then I can have a shallow laugh!
 

Hurray Forums

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I really get the feeling Mr. Erikson was just trying to stir the pot for publicity. When someone says "WRPG" and "JRPG", you know what they're talking about, therefore the words are serving their purpose, so who cares about semantics. Yes, JRPGs do generally have less choices than WRPGs, but "RPG" never really referred purely to choices or creating a character anyway, it's an extremely nuanced and fluid term. Not to mention if Erikson disqualifies JRPGs as RPGs for having less "create your character and make choices" elements than WRPGs then we could just as easily disqualify WRPGs as RPGs for having less of those same elements than a game of Dungeons and Dragons. RPG elitism works both ways.

TLDR: Quit being controversial for no apparent reason. The current definitions work perfectly fine.