BioWare Insists The Old Republic Is Innovative

[Vrach]

hmmm what did it do that other MMO's did not? um the only thing i can think of is not cave under pressure from the elephant in the room which is WoW. other than that it looks like a pretty normal MMO, except the story is better. THATS IT? the STORY is better told?

*in another part of the forum* Doesn't it suck how CoD uses the same old, really well done gameplay, shit and piles on a crappy story on?!

Yes, just that, that's it. Also a lot of other things (crew system etc., brain full of beer, can't think of examples for you right now)

 

[Korten12]

Not one of these GW2 "innovations" are new. I have seen each one in previous MMOs.

The guy didn't explain it well. You don't summon a dragon it just happens. In real life when you walk around do you igniate a quest? Of course not. Same goes for Guild Wars 2, you could be walking on a pathway and see Centuars running over a hill and attacking a town and if you don't stop them then they will destroy the town and you will need to take it back.

The whole world is filled with dynamic events such as these. An Army could be invading and if do nothing the area will slowly be conquored. There is more then monster attacks though (can't name specifics but look at: http://www.escapistmagazine.com/forums/read/9.236131-All-yours-Guild-Wars-2-Information-Topic-Final-Class-Mesmer-12-14-2011)

This thread I created has all the info on why its innovative or look at this: (Not fully innovative topics, but he goes over some.)

 

[AndyFromMonday]

The world isn't instanced anymore. Shards have been turned on on later worlds (maybe they're still on for the lower ones, I'm not sure), it's actually something I've gotten quite excited about during the last 20 or so levels because I hate the idea of sharding. As for instancing little parts of the world, yeah, it's annoying in principle, but honestly, WoW is worse, TOR at least gives you a clear line, in WoW I can walk around open world, move 5 feet and disappear from a friend's sight because he hasn't done the same quest I have.

Yeah, it's the phasing system. It adds a sense of "personality" to the world but I hate it since it gets in the way of World PvP, among other things.

Nope, I'm not even thinking about end game yet, and neither is anyone I've met so far. It's genuinely enjoyable taking your time and not rushing through.

I'm not the sort of guy who plays MMO's to level alts. If I wanted a story I'd have played a Single Player game, like KOTOR.

I'm not, but you're saying "oh, its end game completely doesn't compare with a game that stood its ground for 7 years".

You can't exactly make excuses for the game, after all it IS in direct competition with WoW.

The instancing is not something I agree with, I'll go with you there. But it's not really too bad and I'm starting to get used to it, the same way I got used to WoW having mobs respawn 5 seconds after you've killed them because they've been tuned for a launch population.

I don't particularly want to get used to instancing. I downright dislike it. It's like a server within a server.

Again, FAR more grouping with random people and again, I remember starting day as well as expansion pack launches from WoW, there were always people around, but I never cared/needed/wanted to group with them.

There's always the LFG/LFR system.

But being able to turn off something you don't enjoy that leaves the game in the state you're calling for it to be is neither silly, pointless nor stupid.

Skipping the story in TOR would mean skipping the main selling point of the game and a huge chunk of content.

I enjoyed the "olden" days when the effort you put into getting a group of people together meant the people you enjoyed playing with were the people who ended up permanently on your friends list.

I also enjoyed the "old days" but frankly, it was big fucking pain getting a group together. I'm grateful for the LFG system since it allows me to experience all the dungeons without having to break the pace of leveling. I agree that there's to much automation since all people do nowadays is stand around a major city waiting to queue up for a dungeon.

I remember finding a friend from another guild back in TBC to group with, a few weeks later, it pretty much resulted in two sister guilds (and we're talking mid-high level stuff here, no super hardcore endgamers, but not social guilds by any account). Just knowing one person from there ended up forming friendships all around for both myself and a few other people in the guild.

I never understood the friendship aspect of dungeons. The people I ended up hanging with in WoW I met in Goldshire or whilst leveling.

Honestly, since TBC, I don't remember when I've last logged onto WoW and said anything different than "so... any raids going?". When the guild failed to form ones during the day, I ended up making alts. When those alts ran through everything, I just got bored out of my mind. Aside from a few friendships (and that's not something I can really attribute to the game), there was nothing tying me to the game for a long time since TBC ended.

Aren't you doing the exact same thing now, minus the raiding? Every MMO has downtime. Right now, TOR is a breath of fresh content. Eventually, you'll get bored with it as well, just like with WoW.

I encountered players plenty. It's just that in WoW, I never really grouped or connected with them. Once again, I've played at launch of TBC, I've played at launch of WotLK, I've had giant guilds behind me, I'm still grouping in TOR during leveling a HELL of a lot more and really enjoying it.

The LFG system makes grouping up with other players very easy.

Yeah, looked it up. As I said, you can't attribute that to the game, it's just an active community (and a griefing one at that, if anything) and a programming error.

I'm not attributing it to the game and that was not the point I was trying to make. I was showing you what it means to actually HAVE an active community. World Events are much more interesting when they're organized by actual players. Attempts at scripted events by developers often lack the soul that community organized events have.

Look at the corrupted blood incident. A few players managed to change the entire dynamic of the game. On a PvP server, events similar to that one happen, albeit on a smaller scale. Maybe the Horde decides to attack Stormwind or maybe a group of players decide to blockade the entrance to a certain area. My point is, when you allow the community to take charge of the mechanics as opposed to limiting their abilities the game becomes much more dynamic and fun.

Try really looking through them when you next play it. Put your brain in developer mode and try thinking about it in MMO terms and you'll realise how not so far in mechanics they really are. I can name you dozens upon dozens of quests that are all essentially based on "go to x" "kill x of y" and "collect x of y".

Filler content is usually the one with the "Go to X, kill Y". For example, the Dark Brotherhood questline forces you every few missions or so to go to a certain city and kill two or three people. It's an obvious attempt at artificially inflating the duration of the quest line and I hate it.

Put your prejudice aside and give it a go instead of going on assumptions made from forum posts, you might be pleasantly surprised.

I'm not really interested in The Old Republic. Maybe in a year or so when the game is more polished.

 

[Vrach]

You're misinterpreting a lot of what I said mate...

I'm not the sort of guy who plays MMO's to level alts. If I wanted a story I'd have played a Single Player game, like KOTOR.

I didn't say I'm playing TOR to level alts, I said I'm not thinking about the end game "yet". In WoW, you're (or at least I was) always thinking of end game because there's nothing else really fun about the rest of it. The point is that TOR is fun for now, so instead of spending some 150+ hours grinding through to get to the fun part, I'm having fun right now. When I get to the end game, I'll be thinking about the end game, for now, I'm good.

You can't exactly make excuses for the game, after all it IS in direct competition with WoW.

Not making excuses, I'm stating facts. When WoW first launched, it couldn't compete with EQ either if you compared them point by point, it was merely more accessible (kinda how TOR is with the fun starting the moment you get in, instead of some 100 hours in). It still came out as the far better game in the end.

I don't particularly want to get used to instancing. I downright dislike it. It's like a server within a server.

Agreed. But you don't really have much choice. Kinda like with me and every single fucking game utilizing the GPS map system instead of the Morrowind's "follow the north road and turn right at the big stone". I like to have actual exploration and navigation, but it's just not really likely to come back due to how much more accessible the GPS system is :\

With the TOR's system, only some caves and stuff like that are walled off. I find that preferable (even enjoyable in a very small aspect) to WoW's "this whole zone invisibly transitions you into two+ worlds depending on what quests you did". I like at least knowing (quite literally), where I stand.

There's always the LFG/LFR system.

With random jackasses who don't give half a shit about how they perform or act because they know they're never gonna see you again.

Skipping the story in TOR would mean skipping the main selling point of the game and a huge chunk of content.

It still doesn't delete the rest of the game and if you're fine with not having a story beyond quest text in other games, you can still skip the dialogue and read your quest log. Skipping the story in TOR IS skipping one of the main selling points and a huge chunk of content, but it doesn't make it a lesser game compared to something like WoW because when you skip that, you're (quest-wise) still left with what WoW's offering you.

So it might not be better for it, but it's equal at worst to those not into dialogue, not worse.

I also enjoyed the "old days" but frankly, it was big fucking pain getting a group together. I'm grateful for the LFG system since it allows me to experience all the dungeons without having to break the pace of leveling. I agree that there's to much automation since all people do nowadays is stand around a major city waiting to queue up for a dungeon.

I never understood the friendship aspect of dungeons. The people I ended up hanging with in WoW I met in Goldshire or whilst leveling.

Frankly, it wasn't. I always played the most unpopular specs in WoW and still never had too much trouble getting a group together. And when I would get a group together, it'd sometimes end up with me becoming friends with that person and having someone to run dungeons with from then on. After a few such friendships, you end up having people to go with and not just random nobodies that might as well be computer-controlled, but actual people that you enjoy playing the game with.

Hell, you yourself said an MMO can't just neglect the social aspect of the game - and WoW's LFG system is the absolute worst thing to happen to the social aspect since the dawn of MMOs, it takes actual social interaction and boils it down to a Facebook-like aspect of the game, where other people are just tools you need to do your own shit.

Aren't you doing the exact same thing now, minus the raiding? Every MMO has downtime. Right now, TOR is a breath of fresh content. Eventually, you'll get bored with it as well, just like with WoW.

Well that's the problem, even when WoW was a breath of fresh content, I didn't really enjoy "it". I enjoyed playing with my friends, I enjoyed playing with my guild, I enjoyed climbing the DPS meter or the sense of achievement I got from tanking/healing through a dungeon, but I never enjoyed the game itself, only what it created as a kind of side effect. Now, I'm not dissing that it managed to do that, but in TOR, I'm enjoying the same things, except I'm enjoying the game for itself as well, by which I mean the story and combat.

Speaking of combat, it's far too rarely mentioned as a plus TOR has on WoW imo. I've found its combat genuinely enjoyable, which is something that absolutely never happened in WoW. WoW had the fun of DPS meters and boss mechanics, but in TOR, I'm actually enjoying the combat itself. It's kinda hard to explain the difference, but it's something I've felt since the moment I laid my hands on the game in the pre-launch beta, something that really surprised me because I've spent the months before that trying other MMOs and realising not a single MMOs combat/controls could even remotely compare to WoW and fearing TOR would fall into the same pit. When me and my friend were sitting side by side playing the beta and both saying "holy shit, this is actually fun", I knew it wasn't just me and my wishful thinking (he wasn't too hot for TOR pre-launch [interested, but not psyched like me], he's really into WoW, is still playing it and has the same claim that no one pulls combat/fluidity/movement/controls like WoW - TOR blowing it out of the water still [though he prefers WoW's jumping a bit, for what it's worth ])

The LFG system makes grouping up with other players very easy.

I don't want easy grouping, I want enjoyable grouping. It's like picking up random girls for one night stands and going for someone for a sustained relationship. Yeah, you can use the LFG/local club and get someone for the former with/for a lot less trouble. But I'd rather spend the time going for the latter and end up with someone I enjoying spending that time with, can have an actual conversation with outside the... grouping and go at it again with the same person the next night

There's also a difference in grouping for dungeons and grouping for quests out in the actual world. I was saying that I very much enjoyed (and still do) how often I group up with people on planets for group quests, not just for dungeons. Dungeons come once every few levels. Group quests (in TOR) come pretty much every level or more.

I'm not attributing it to the game and that was not the point I was trying to make. I was showing you what it means to actually HAVE an active community. World Events are much more interesting when they're organized by actual players. Attempts at scripted events by developers often lack the soul that community organized events have.

Look at the corrupted blood incident. A few players managed to change the entire dynamic of the game. On a PvP server, events similar to that one happen, albeit on a smaller scale. Maybe the Horde decides to attack Stormwind or maybe a group of players decide to blockade the entrance to a certain area. My point is, when you allow the community to take charge of the mechanics as opposed to limiting their abilities the game becomes much more dynamic and fun.

I agree completely, but scripted events are what a game is. The community is separate from it and I'm not quite sure what it is that makes you think TOR doesn't/won't have an active community that could pull that same thing off. Is it the fact WoW has more players? Since server sizes are the same, that's completely irrelevant to the player, WoW just has more servers.

Filler content is usually the one with the "Go to X, kill Y". For example, the Dark Brotherhood questline forces you every few missions or so to go to a certain city and kill two or three people. It's an obvious attempt at artificially inflating the duration of the quest line and I hate it.

Depends on how it's used. See TOR's bonus missions for example. TOR tells you "go deactivate the shield to secure an attack on their base", but when you get there and start killing, it tells you "oh yeah, might as well butcher 10 or 20 of them to thin their ranks". Like with Skyrim's "go get me 8 bear pelts, they're pissing me off marking their territory by mauling my trees" (see, I remember the quest, even though it's pretty much a filler one according to you), it's fine because those quests are sort of "if you get around to it", they're not the actual content, but they fill in the gaps nicely. Not in a "filler quest" way though.

See, the difference is that if TOR just said "go deactivate the shield", I'd take my Assassin, sneak through to the shield, Mind Trap (Sap) the guard and turn the shield off. With the bonus quest, while not compelled against that strategy, I'll be more inclined to experience the content they've placed there, ie. cutting through a number of guards to get to their shield. The same works for Skyrim, normally, seeing a bear makes my little stealth-focused, no-armor ranger go "fuck that shit, I'm giving him a wide berth". With the bear pelts quest though, I won't go out of my way to avoid him, instead fighting, killing and looting the bear, thus experiencing the content (world beasts) the developers put in.

It's in how you use it though. With DB quests, the final thing where you can go around killing random shit (Radiant quests that spawn at the end of questlines) is completely filler and has no point, it's utter useless crap. But if your main quest is to kill a dude, but they'd also think you're really awesome if you cut down every single one of his guard as well, that intertwines with your actual story and then it actually works.

 

[Giftmacher]

This thread to date:

Hater: Pfft, SWTOR didn't innovate.
People who have actually played the game: *list of innovations*
Hater 1 who reads previous posts: Well they should have innovated in !
Hater 2 who ignores previous posts: Pfft, SWTOR isn't innovative. WoW did everything. GW2 will do everything else.
Hater who is raging because SWTOR is stealing all the attention (and subs) from their preferred MMO: *chooses to become Hater 2*

*repeat*

Heavy on the Strawman there. I've played the game and I didn't find it particularly innovative, an improvement yes, but that's it. What we have here is a genuine difference of opinion about just what qualifies as innovative... the cynic in me feels compelled to point out you may lower the bar of your opinion due to a bit of post-purchase rationalization.

Its also worth noting that at launch WoW had ZERO innovations at launch, it was just a polished version of everything that had come before. It's innovations came later as they built upon what they started. SWTOR will be no different, except it already has a head start, having already made several innovations. The important thing is getting a successful launch to get the momentum, and they have that.

A bit off topic, however. Maybe I'm getting long in the tooth, but I get twitchy around any "Post launch it'll be great/get X" etc. arguments (regardless of the MMO in question). Disappointment is inevitable, in my experience.

 

[grammarye]

What disappoints me in reading the responses here is how few people know what innovation is, and decide instead to latch onto the nearest thing that they were already wanting to talk about and criticise that.

TOR is innovative. Innovation is rarely based around subjective opinion, nor even success. It may not be the innovation you like, or that you want, or that you were hoping for, but it does fulfill the criteria for doing better things with existing concepts than anyone in the same genre has done before. Nobody prior to them had incorporated deep voiced story in the MMO setting, and not just a bit but the entire game. That individuals don't like other things about the game is an entirely different debate.

What TOR is not is inventive. There is little about TOR that is genuinely new. It is mostly a carbon copy of preexisting MMOs in terms of mechanics, and in some cases a retrograde step.

Edit: I feel I have to add that even to me Bioware's responses have seemed a touch over the top, even defensive, but marketing a game like this in such a hostile market is a challenge I'd not want.

What we have here is a genuine difference of opinion about just what qualifies as innovative... the cynic in me feels compelled to point out you may lower the bar of your opinion due to a bit of post-purchase rationalization.

Careful. That argument works both ways. People who made up their mind to not get a given game also adjust their outlook in order to rationalise it, especially if others then appear to enjoy it. How dare they etc. etc.

 

[Giftmacher]

Nobody prior to them had incorporated deep voiced story in the MMO setting

Except the aforementioned Age of Conan. It was only Tortage but that still means bioware expanded an existing idea. A storyline with voice acting is not new and therefore not an innovation. Expanding voice acting to the entire game is quite reasonably viewed as evolution in this context.

What we have here is a genuine difference of opinion about just what qualifies as innovative... the cynic in me feels compelled to point out you may lower the bar of your opinion due to a bit of post-purchase rationalization.

Careful. That argument works both ways...

/sigh see the wink? Irony lost in text... Incidently, I have no strong feelings about people daring to enjoy the game; I enjoyed it myself. How dare I disagree about the game's claim to innovation?