BioWare Insists The Old Republic Is Innovative

[ReinWeisserRitter]

Attention, people who think Bioware importing damn near everything they do in every other game they make into this game: They've done it in damn near every other game they've made. That's kind of the opposite of innovative; it doesn't automatically become a revolution because they shoehorned it into an online game model.

Attention, Bioware: You're full of more shit than the sewers surrounding every Taco Bell in the world.

Well, they added a coherent story and voice acting to MMOs, so I guess it is at least slightly innovative.

While this is just an opinion based on not knowing any better. "Coherent story" is ridiculously subjective, and voice acting in the genre has already appeared in a number of games. There are games beyond World of Warcraft, everyone (although there are plenty of people who will argue that has a "coherent story" in the first place), even if this game does copy its ass off.

What is with all the BioWare hate? Is there anything that the average gamer doesn't hate? I have to say that I'm rather embarrassed to be called a gamer sometimes.

I'm rather embarrassed that so many people in the industry universally see criticism as a negative thing born of revulsion and detest.

Might be why I don't associate myself with any camp; then I only have to be responsible for myself.

Anyway. I don't hate Bioware, even though I don't like... any of their games. But the subject is "Bioware insists The Old Republic is innovative". That insistence is, as I've stated above, not true in the slightest. It doesn't have a damn thing to do with my opinion on them or on their games.

 

[ReinWeisserRitter]

Calling something "full of shit" is a little past criticism. I always thought criticism was supposed to be pointing out flaws in a civil manner, not downright beating it into their face.

I call it like I see it. When someone has to cite completely different genres as reasoning for why their miniscule additions to an incredibly formulaic and stagnant genre are "innovative", for example, while also admitting they kept things familiar (which isn't innovation, for those of you keeping score), you cross the line from "mistaken" to "full of shit" in my eyes.

It doesn't help when they defend this claim with "we're a big target so it's cool to pick on us". Bioware's on a serious power trip right now, and I'd call anyone acting this way full of shit.

 

[thirion1850]

Yes. Because you know, RPGs, MMOs, RTS, FPS, all same shit, right? Clearly this excuses a WoW clone.

 

[Filiecs]

If ToR was innovative then The Secret World must be revolutionary!

Seriously though, at least The Secret World is going to TRY and do something different...

 

[Jahandar]

This thread to date:




Hater: Pfft, SWTOR didn't innovate.
People who have actually played the game: *list of innovations*
Hater 1 who reads previous posts: Well they should have innovated in !
Hater 2 who ignores previous posts: Pfft, SWTOR isn't innovative. WoW did everything. GW2 will do everything else.
Hater who is raging because SWTOR is stealing all the attention (and subs) from their preferred MMO: *chooses to become Hater 2*

*repeat*


--



To anyone who's actually played the game, its quite obvious that SWTOR innovated in the areas where Bioware felt they could make significant improvements to the genre right away (whether you like those innovations doesn't matter). Did they invent an entire new genre? No, they innovated on the existing MMORPG formula and made it their own. As Ohlen says in the interview, its evolutionary not revolutionary. The genre evolves as different games innovate in different areas.

Its also worth noting that at launch WoW had ZERO innovations at launch, it was just a polished version of everything that had come before. It's innovations came later as they built upon what they started. SWTOR will be no different, except it already has a head start, having already made several innovations. The important thing is getting a successful launch to get the momentum, and they have that.

 

[AndyFromMonday]

I've played Cataclysm and fell into the same routine. It didn't fix a damn thing, the quests are still boring as is the way they're delivered. And as I said, I remember back to my first character and leveling it, I was psyched as hell for WoW, my mate was playing it etc., I was not feeling leveling AT ALL, it was boring and the only reasons I got through was that I wanted to play with my best friend and I had a lot of good music to keep my interest through.

It focused more on story and vehicle gameplay as opposed to just "Go to X kill Y". Isn't it the same with TOR? You still go to area X and Kill Y number of mobs only this time around you get to choose what you tell the NPC before he sends you on your merry way. There's also less players to keep you company since the world is instanced.

This is a new MMO and one that's not weighted a full 100% on the end game. Don't get me wrong, the end game is of the utmost importance and what the game will eventually hang on - but unlike the other MMOs on the market (at least to me), I don't feel the need to get there as soon as possible because there's nothing interesting before that.

It seems to be like there's no hurry to reach the maximum level because there's nothing to do. PvP is unbalanced and unplayable for lower levels and there aren't enough raids to keep players interested for long.

As a new MMO, if you compare it to a veteran MMO that dominated the market for years, of course it's not gonna hold up. Check what WoW had when it launched and try comparing it to that instead.

You can't compare TOR to 2004 World of Warcraft and say TOR "innovates" more. TOR was released right at the end of 2011. Saying it's better than vanilla WoW isn't saying much at all. And of course I'm going to compare it to the "veteran" MMO. TOR is competing with it.

The base is there. Do they need to build on it with more, and possibly better end game? Yes, they do. But that's not at all impossible to do with what they have.

I don't believe it is. Not only is TOR instanced by the gameplay STILL revolves around the same basic principle most MMO's were founded on.

You wanna talk about the MMO part of an MMORPG, tell me where it is in WoW that I soloed through 1-80 several times,

I don't want to argue whether WoW is better than TOR. If you want to go that route though then maybe you should have found a better populated server.

Hey, if it suits your taste, it's there. That's not the entire selling point, it's the main one, but everything else (bar the fully fleshed out end game maybe) is there if that's all you're into.

It's also lacking in end game PvP as well. They put so much money into creating a decent leveling stream that they forgot to implement somewhat decent end game content. Again, if the selling point of your game is something that does not interest me, saying you can "turn it off" is pointless.

And the problem of WoW is EXACTLY that it boils down to the "raid or die" mindset.

Well there's also PvP and Roleplaying if you're into that sort of thing. You can also raid using the LFR system if you can't find a guild. Honestly, WoW is really accessible at the moment.

That's as bad as you can get for the game as a whole, there's no fun in it, it's bad for the social element of the game (ever been in a guild where raids fail to form? I've been in casual guilds, I've been in hardcore guilds, it ain't pretty on either side) and it turns it into a second job and not even an enjoyable one at that.

I don't specifically remember being forced to raid. I did enjoy raiding but it does eventually get boring once you actually finish the content and start farming instances. The same thing will happen with TOR's content but the thing is, right now it's fresh out of the oven. It'll cool down, just wait a bit.

Now as for the player interaction, I've leveled several times through WoW, I always did it solo. Player interaction my arse, I grouped for an occasional dungeon and that was it, unless I set out to level with someone, there was no player interaction involved at all.

I played on a highly populated server. I encountered other players on numerous occasions. There was the occasional stretch of two or three levels where I soloed everything but even that went away once I reached Outland. Anyways, this was before the new automatic LFG system was implemented. Nowadays you barely see high levels outside of main cities.

TOR? Every single zone I've been in, I've grouped up with people. Group quests are everywhere and they're usually dailies, so you'll see people doing them more than once

I remember doing group quests back when I played Warhammer. Of course, you're playing at launch. Players playing a few months after launch won't have the same experience as you do.

You mean the pre-WotLK zombie invasion? Please don't tell me you mean the zombie invasion. That thing was fun for about an hour or two, then everyone got so sick of it, most players took a few days vacation from the game. I remember players asking for the event to be cut short, that's how fun it was.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Blood_Plague

It happened right after they introduced Zul'Gurub. The pre-WOTLK zombie invasion was a shitty attempt at trying to emulate what happened back then.

Skyrim quest: "Go get me 8 bear pelts"

Skyrim's quests aren't like that. Well, actually the Radiant Quest System DOES create gather and kill quests but nobody takes them seriously.

And any game, definitely MMOs, benefits from having a proper story element.

I disagree completely. You can have the best story in the world but that won't change the fact that your game is based entirely on grinding.

Yes, there's more to MMOs than story, but there's also more to TOR than story

Well there's group quests. That's nice, though not exactly amazing.

 

[Kahunaburger]

In particular, Ohlen defended the game's deep narrative developments. "We were building essentially a classic MMO with BioWare storytelling set in the Star Wars universe," he explains. "And there were a lot of people out there who wanted us to reinvent the universe and come up with a game system that had never been done before. And that was something we weren't doing." According to Ohlen, BioWare did not want to drive existing MMO fans away, so purposely kept much of the gameplay that would be familiar to them.

Does combining two elements without doing much to ensure that they fit well with each other count as innovation? Somebody inform Xzibit that he's on the cutting edge of automotive manufacturing.

 

[Jahandar]

It is clear you haven't played the game Andy, as your assumptions about the game are wrong.

It focused more on story and vehicle gameplay as opposed to just "Go to X kill Y". Isn't it the same with TOR? You still go to area X and Kill Y number of mobs only this time around you get to choose what you tell the NPC before he sends you on your merry way.

No, its not the same. Often you'll find Y only to realize that things are not as they seem. Maybe they have a side of the story of their own and you opt not to kill them. Sometimes you will be offered a quest and depending on how you respond you'll have to do some objective, or something completely different. Dialog choices have an effect on how the quests play out and your relations with the NPC and your companions, they aren't just things to click through.

This is more like leveling by playing KOTOR or Dragon Age, rather than the grind fest of other MMOs. Even things like crafting are completely streamlined.

There's also less players to keep you company since the world is instanced.

This is just completely false. Obviously you haven't even tried the game or you'd know this. There are some instanced areas, but only where it is necessary because you are say, doing a class quest, and need to have that area specially catered to fit your story. The world itself is open and quite populated.

I play on a PVP server, so I know first hand that both friends to keep me company and enemies to keep me alert.

I disagree completely. You can have the best story in the world but that won't change the fact that your game is based entirely on grinding.

That's why questing in games like SWTOR and Skyrim is more enjoyable than games like WoW and WAR --- because it ISN'T based on grinding.

I've played tons of MMOs and this is the least grindy one ever. In fact, if I didn't limit myself because I want to enjoy the story, I could level to 50 entirely through PvP and Space missions.

PvP is unbalanced and unplayable for lower levels [...]
It's also lacking in end game PvP as well.

There is world PvP, an entire PvP zone with capturable objectives, and PvP warzone instances all available at end game, with more updates already announced.

Lower levels in PvP are quite capable (I have characters of various classes and roles who are doing just fine) thanks to the bolster mechanic in PvP. Plus, however, now that there are enough 50s to support it, they are adding a separate bracket for high level players in the Tuesday update to further diminish any problems for low level characters.

It seems to be like there's no hurry to reach the maximum level because there's nothing to do.
They put so much money into creating a decent leveling stream that they forgot to implement somewhat decent end game content.

For PvE endgame content they have 16 flashpoints and operations for each faction that can be run at endgame in hard mode. They are already adding more, including a new one already this Tuesday, and another warzone and raid operation will be added in the following update.

They obviously have a clear endgame strategy because as they've stated they are already working in the planning stages for their content for 2013, so they gave themselves quite a head start.

 

[acosn]

This thread to date:




Hater: Pfft, SWTOR didn't innovate.
People who have actually played the game: *list of innovations*
Hater 1 who reads previous posts: Well they should have innovated in !
Hater 2 who ignores previous posts: Pfft, SWTOR isn't innovative. WoW did everything. GW2 will do everything else.
Hater who is raging because SWTOR is stealing all the attention (and subs) from their preferred MMO: *chooses to become Hater 2*

*repeat*


--



To anyone who's actually played the game, its quite obvious that SWTOR innovated in the areas where Bioware felt they could make significant improvements to the genre right away (whether you like those innovations doesn't matter). Did they invent an entire new genre? No, they innovated on the existing MMORPG formula and made it their own. As Ohlen says in the interview, its evolutionary not revolutionary. The genre evolves as different games innovate in different areas.

Its also worth noting that at launch WoW had ZERO innovations at launch, it was just a polished version of everything that had come before. It's innovations came later as they built upon what they started. SWTOR will be no different, except it already has a head start, having already made several innovations. The important thing is getting a successful launch to get the momentum, and they have that.

Blizzard's innovation was the simple fact that their game was accessible and not hideous to look at, and a lot of people take things for granted now like stable servers, and servers only going down for a day to be fixed.

No one ever called w0w innovative. It's nothing you haven't seen before.

And neither is TOR. Every remarkable addition to the game either doesn't matter (IE: fully voiced. God forbid you have to read) or was something Bioware has done in every other game they've released.

 

[weker]

I would easily say that Old Republic is extremely innovative due to it's speech system... however it is only innovative in the MMO genre and even then it is one of the most obvious of the possible innovation. The only reason people have not done it before is the gigantic cost that only a MMO support by a giant corporation and fan base, just like Star Wars.

 

[Jahandar]

And neither is TOR. Every remarkable addition to the game either doesn't matter (IE: fully voiced. God forbid you have to read) or was something Bioware has done in every other game they've released.

Story and character development does matter to many in an MMORPG. There's a reason why so many people (who don't have an axe to grind) are enjoying it.

Bioware didn't just slap a story into an MMO. They had to create individualized story arcs for 8 different classes and have custom progressions for each individual character. That's huge and has never been done before. They aren't just reading a simple text box out to you. They are responding to you based on your race, alignment, and previous decisions. The game even generates seamless instances without loading screens on the fly based on who you are and what you're doing. That's quite a feat, bringing catered content to an MMO.

There are several gameplay improvements as well. Taking just one of my favorite examples...

They brought their companion system and tied it into the crafting system and made crafting much more dynamic. Instead of spending long boring stretches of time in some crafting hall watching a progress bar, you do your crafting on the run sending orders to your companions. Their effectiveness are tied to how much they approve of you, which again feeds back into the story. They have their systems tied together in ways that make each part more rewarding.

Blizzard's innovation was the simple fact that their game was accessible and not hideous to look at, and a lot of people take things for granted now like stable servers, and servers only going down for a day to be fixed.

Their had been plenty of accessible games that looked good, and if you'd actually been there, you'd know there were plenty of problems and instabilities with wow at launch, but you're right that WoW succeeded by consistently appealing to the lowest common denominator.

 

[AndyFromMonday]

No, its not the same. Often you'll find Y only to realize that things are not as they seem. Maybe they have a side of the story of their own and you opt not to kill them. Sometimes you will be offered a quest and depending on how you respond you'll have to do some objective, or something completely different. Dialog choices have an effect on how the quests play out and your relations with the NPC and your companions, they aren't just things to click through.

This is more like leveling by playing KOTOR or Dragon Age, rather than the grind fest of other MMOs. Even things like crafting are completely streamlined.

I fail to see what's different. You go to a location, kill an X amount of mobs then get a side quest to kill more mobs, except this time they've got a different skin. It's the same with the dialogue system.

This is just completely false. Obviously you haven't even tried the game or you'd know this. There are some instanced areas, but only where it is necessary because you are say, doing a class quest, and need to have that area specially catered to fit your story. The world itself is open and quite populated.

Here's people complaining about it:
http://www.swtor.com/community/showthread.php?t=81941

I play on a PVP server, so I know first hand that both friends to keep me company and enemies to keep me alert.

And you're wrong. TOR's zones are divided in instances with somewhere around fifty to a hundred players per instance. This was supposedly put in place to deal with performance issues.

That's why questing in games like SWTOR and Skyrim is more enjoyable than games like WoW and WAR --- because it ISN'T based on grinding.

I've played tons of MMOs and this is the least grindy one ever. In fact, if I didn't limit myself because I want to enjoy the story, I could level to 50 entirely through PvP and Space missions.

Of course it doesn't seem grindy. WoW didn't feel grindy at all to me the first time I played it. The story and dialogue might detract from the actual gameplay but The Old Republic's gameplay is based entirely around grinding, just like every other MMO. If you're not killing an X number of mobs or collecting Y number of items, you're doing daily quests.

Lower levels in PvP are quite capable (I have characters of various classes and roles who are doing just fine) thanks to the bolster mechanic in PvP. Plus, however, now that there are enough 50s to support it, they are adding a separate bracket for high level players in the Tuesday update to further diminish any problems for low level characters.

Low level characters are still being put up against characters upwards to level 49.

Here's a thread of a guy whining about end game PvP:
http://www.swtor.com/community/showthread.php?t=104869

Here's another one:
http://www.swtor.com/community/showthread.php?t=16469

And another:
http://www.swtor.com/community/showthread.php?t=67168

They obviously have a clear endgame strategy because as they've stated they are already working in the planning stages for their content for 2013, so they gave themselves quite a head start.

I don't know about that. A lot of people are whining about end game. This is just one thread I managed to find but I'm sure there's a lot more.

http://www.swtor.com/de/community/showthread.php?t=127275

 

[Jahandar]

And you're wrong. TOR's zones are divided in instances with somewhere around fifty to a hundred players per instance. This was supposedly put in place to deal with performance issues.

That's all fine and dandy except I'm in the game right now in a zone with well more than that and it isn't instanced. Instance layering does exist if zones become overpopulated but that hasn't been a problem since launch. Maybe different areas have different caps, but either way you're original worry was that you wouldn't see other people out in the world and that simply isn't true. There are tons of people about, world pvp depends on that.

Of course it doesn't seem grindy. WoW didn't feel grindy at all to me the first time I played it. The story and dialogue might detract from the actual gameplay but The Old Republic's gameplay is based entirely around grinding, just like every other MMO. If you're not killing an X number of mobs or collecting Y number of items, you're doing daily quests.

I've gone through the content multiple times without much problem, and the fact that each class has a unique story gives it much more replayability, leaving aside the alternate morality choices.

As I said, if the questing isn't for you, you can very easily level through PvP alone. A level 1-49 bracket is more than sufficient (and was my preference). Like I said, I start PvPing on alts as soon as possible and am still able to do well. In fact its possible for a bolstered low level character to end up with stats higher than that of someone level 49. For more info on the bolster mechanic, read: http://taugrim.com/2011/12/27/understanding-swtors-bolster-mechanic/


lol, I'm not even going to read random forum posts from random people whining, let alone respond to them. If you have a point to make, make it. You will find internet posts whining about anything and everything for every MMO in the past, present, or future. I don't recommend reading the forums for any new MMO in the first month. If you had done that for WoW you'd have been convinced that the game wouldn't last 6 months.

Try the game, make your own decision. I'm not saying its perfect and everyone will love it. I'm saying its a fun game with a few new and unique things that make it worth consideration.

 

[42]

An evolution of an MMO yes, an innovation? No where near

Can you point me to a BioWare employee quote using the word "innovation" somewhere in this article? All I see is evolution, innovation is a word used by the guy who wrote the article.

Wow Do they even realise that it was Half-Life that did some innovation?

Considering all Half Life did was change how an FPS can tell a story and you call it innovative in relation to other FPS games of the time, how in the hell is TOR not innovative in comparison to other MMOs?

hmmm what did it do that other MMO's did not? um the only thing i can think of is not cave under pressure from the elephant in the room which is WoW. other than that it looks like a pretty normal MMO, except the story is better. THATS IT? the STORY is better told?

 

[Jahandar]

hmmm what did it do that other MMO's did not?

lol, thanks for proving my point earlier about people in this thread not reading before they post. Your question has already been answered. Good day.

 

[him over there]

Nice try guys. A little heads up: being different and being innovative aren't the same thing. Neither is improvement versus innovation. Maybe when every other online rpg adopts and uses what you did, seeing it as an important and game-changing event then you can call it innovative but right now it's just different and slightly more niche with the concentration on story and characters.

 

[Vrach]

It focused more on story and vehicle gameplay as opposed to just "Go to X kill Y". Isn't it the same with TOR? You still go to area X and Kill Y number of mobs only this time around you get to choose what you tell the NPC before he sends you on your merry way. There's also less players to keep you company since the world is instanced.

The world isn't instanced anymore. Shards have been turned on on later worlds (maybe they're still on for the lower ones, I'm not sure), it's actually something I've gotten quite excited about during the last 20 or so levels because I hate the idea of sharding. As for instancing little parts of the world, yeah, it's annoying in principle, but honestly, WoW is worse, TOR at least gives you a clear line, in WoW I can walk around open world, move 5 feet and disappear from a friend's sight because he hasn't done the same quest I have.

It seems to be like there's no hurry to reach the maximum level because there's nothing to do. PvP is unbalanced and unplayable for lower levels and there aren't enough raids to keep players interested for long.

Nope, I'm not even thinking about end game yet, and neither is anyone I've met so far. It's genuinely enjoyable taking your time and not rushing through.

You can't compare TOR to 2004 World of Warcraft and say TOR "innovates" more. TOR was released right at the end of 2011. Saying it's better than vanilla WoW isn't saying much at all. And of course I'm going to compare it to the "veteran" MMO. TOR is competing with it.

I'm not, but you're saying "oh, its end game completely doesn't compare with a game that stood its ground for 7 years". That's like saying Counter Strike is more polished than Battlefield 3, could very well be, but it doesn't stop me not giving a shit about the former and loving the latter.

I don't believe it is. Not only is TOR instanced by the gameplay STILL revolves around the same basic principle most MMO's were founded on.

The instancing is not something I agree with, I'll go with you there. But it's not really too bad and I'm starting to get used to it, the same way I got used to WoW having mobs respawn 5 seconds after you've killed them because they've been tuned for a launch population.

I don't want to argue whether WoW is better than TOR. If you want to go that route though then maybe you should have found a better populated server.

Both the server I've played on in WoW (Nordrassil) and the one I'm playing on in TOR (Hydian Way) are Full servers. They're both well populated and that's not the issue with either of them. Hell, on WoW, aside from a brief starting period, I've always had a guild behind me and a huge number of people to call on, in TOR, I have literally not a single person I really know, most of my friends rolled Republic and my best mate is still too busy to play. Again, FAR more grouping with random people and again, I remember starting day as well as expansion pack launches from WoW, there were always people around, but I never cared/needed/wanted to group with them.

It's also lacking in end game PvP as well. They put so much money into creating a decent leveling stream that they forgot to implement somewhat decent end game content. Again, if the selling point of your game is something that does not interest me, saying you can "turn it off" is pointless.

Can't argue the PvP as I'm by far and wide a PvE guy and I'm on a PvE server (planning to start a PvP alt as soon as my mate and maybe some other friends get around to it). But being able to turn off something you don't enjoy that leaves the game in the state you're calling for it to be is neither silly, pointless nor stupid.

Well there's also PvP and Roleplaying if you're into that sort of thing. You can also raid using the LFR system if you can't find a guild. Honestly, WoW is really accessible at the moment.

I'm not saying it's not, but if anything, that's a turn off for me. I enjoyed the "olden" days when the effort you put into getting a group of people together meant the people you enjoyed playing with were the people who ended up permanently on your friends list. I haven't played Cataclysm end game to be fair, but after a LOT of WotLK end game, I can tell you, the whole cross realm, instant LFG business made my experience less enjoyable on every single level and is one of the main reasons I ended up leaving the game.

I remember finding a friend from another guild back in TBC to group with, a few weeks later, it pretty much resulted in two sister guilds (and we're talking mid-high level stuff here, no super hardcore endgamers, but not social guilds by any account). Just knowing one person from there ended up forming friendships all around for both myself and a few other people in the guild.

I don't specifically remember being forced to raid. I did enjoy raiding but it does eventually get boring once you actually finish the content and start farming instances. The same thing will happen with TOR's content but the thing is, right now it's fresh out of the oven. It'll cool down, just wait a bit.

Honestly, since TBC, I don't remember when I've last logged onto WoW and said anything different than "so... any raids going?". When the guild failed to form ones during the day, I ended up making alts. When those alts ran through everything, I just got bored out of my mind. Aside from a few friendships (and that's not something I can really attribute to the game), there was nothing tying me to the game for a long time since TBC ended.

I played on a highly populated server. I encountered other players on numerous occasions. There was the occasional stretch of two or three levels where I soloed everything but even that went away once I reached Outland. Anyways, this was before the new automatic LFG system was implemented. Nowadays you barely see high levels outside of main cities.

I encountered players plenty. It's just that in WoW, I never really grouped or connected with them. Once again, I've played at launch of TBC, I've played at launch of WotLK, I've had giant guilds behind me, I'm still grouping in TOR during leveling a HELL of a lot more and really enjoying it. Group quests are a decent part (in WoW I always soloed or ignored them unless a guildie was nearby to help), but the world bosses are definitely not a small part of it either. Grouping up with 20 people to take down a boss before you reach end game is something else, I can definitely vouch for the fun of that

I remember doing group quests back when I played Warhammer. Of course, you're playing at launch. Players playing a few months after launch won't have the same experience as you do.

Again, been there for launch of TBC and the launch of WotLK and my first toon was leveled around the end of Vanilla. You can vouch it's not the same, but hell, WoW had dedicated, veteran players at that point and a lot more of them than TOR (from other MMOs) does now.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Blood_Plague

It happened right after they introduced Zul'Gurub. The pre-WOTLK zombie invasion was a shitty attempt at trying to emulate what happened back then.

Yeah, looked it up. As I said, you can't attribute that to the game, it's just an active community (and a griefing one at that, if anything) and a programming error.

Skyrim's quests aren't like that. Well, actually the Radiant Quest System DOES create gather and kill quests but nobody takes them seriously.

Try really looking through them when you next play it. Put your brain in developer mode and try thinking about it in MMO terms and you'll realise how not so far in mechanics they really are. I can name you dozens upon dozens of quests that are all essentially based on "go to x" "kill x of y" and "collect x of y".

I disagree completely. You can have the best story in the world but that won't change the fact that your game is based entirely on grinding.

I'm playing TOR at the moment and enjoying it. De gustibus non disputandum est. (I swear I'm not posh, that's just one of the maybe 3 Latin lines I remotely remember and it came with the help of almighty Google)

Well there's group quests. That's nice, though not exactly amazing.

More than that. A lot more than that. Put your prejudice aside and give it a go instead of going on assumptions made from forum posts, you might be pleasantly surprised.

PS apologies for any non-coherent thoughts, spelling errors etc. If there are any, I'm blaming them on the 5 beers, no food throughout the day and the Twix bar that looks like an angel chopped up, marinated with chocolate and stuffed into a plastic wrapping.

Bottom line, try the game, one of my all time favourite games is something reviewers took a complete dump on and everyone spat on due to how unpolished and buggy it was (Alpha Protocol, in case you're interested - best.dialogue.system.ever). It's one of the three reviews I'm eternally grateful to Yahtzee for a (begrudging) recommendation (SR2 and Prototype being the other two). Did I mention non-coherent non-sequiturs? I'm off to sleep.