BioWare Insists The Old Republic Is Innovative

[Sixcess]

Did you even read the article? He said TOR was evolutionary not revolutionary, saying that they decided to build upon the existing foundation of the genre rather than do something completely different. "Innovation" is a buzz word that gets thrown around too often by gamers, the media and developers, and while innovation can mean completely new mechanics, it can also mean improved mechanics and evolution of the genre.

Yes I did, but I'm more referring to the general tone of everything that's coming out of Bioware about SWTOR. I understand they want to talk their game up - who wouldn't - but I cringe when I see them tossing around phrases like "game changer", "one of the greatest achievements in the history of video games", and comparing the impact of TOR on MMOs to that of sound on motion pictures.

The sheer level of self adulation that they're indulging in is becoming farcical and quite frankly I wish they'd just shut the hell up and get on with adding to and improving the game, rather than posturing around in that obnoxious, trash talking EA way we've become so familiar with from nonsense like the BF3/MW3 build up.

SWTOR is not a bad game - I've said so before. But it's by no means all that Bioware are claiming it to be. It's a good game, but an unoriginal, highly derivative and not very good MMO, and the sooner they stop acting like it's something that it is not, the sooner I and others will stop 'hating' on it.

I have no interest in seeing your slanted, hatred filled response, for game, that, I have doubts you even played.

Oh I have played it, and (I'm being entirely honest here) the first 10 levels of my Trooper were some of the best gaming I've had in a long long time. If TOR was a single player game I'd buy it, no question. It was after the first 10 levels that I started noticing more and more things that did not impress me.

Good day.

Yes, and may the Force be with you.

 

[Antari]

Ya that 1980's railshooter of a space component is really pushing the boundaries I must say. But in this case, that tried a true method died out BEFORE the 90's hit. So I can't say they have done much of anything but revert, and not in a good way.

 

[AndyFromMonday]

Opinion (and one hardly related to what I initially said even). You could say the same for Half Life by claiming FPSs should be centred around gameplay rather than story (and you'd be in more right with saying that for FPSs than you would be for MMOs, though imho, both claims are nothing short of stupid)

Story driven experiences may work for leveling but it does not work when you introduce the aspect of multiplayer to the game. You can't exactly immerse yourself into the story when you've got five other people besides you trying to do the same. A story driven experience will take away from the grind that is leveling but when you do eventually reach the maximum level and start doing end game content, which involves teaming up with other players and such, the story will stop mattering. What WILL start mattering are the social interactions and the gameplay. Those two concepts are the pillars of MMO's and ignoring them is not an option if you want to create a successful game.

Blizzard tried to implement a story driven experience in Wrath of the Lich King in the form of an end game 5 man dungeon and whilst it was a nice surprise, players eventually stopped giving a shit. They ended up allowing players to skip the majority of the story and get to the gameplay because so many people complained about having to sit through endless dialogue they've heard countless times before.

True innovation in the MMO genre is doing away with the grinding mechanics. Implementing a well written story isn't exactly what I'd call a step forward.

 

[HalfTangible]

Why is that nowadays whenever I hear Bioware say anything at all it comes off as douchey

They're attached to EA. Even if what they say is completely neutral, it still sounds douchey because they're standing next to EA. It's like how 'Wanna come outside to play?' sounds threatening if someone's leveling a gun at you.

 

[acosn]

Well, the game's development costs certainly had an innovative pricetag. I'm sure their cost/profit graphs will have an innovative break-even point. I can't see any other kind of innovation in TOR, though.

Ummm...It's the first time there has been a Star Wars game...

That's a Made by Bioware...

That's an MMO...

Umm...

First MMO to put this much emphasis on story
first MMO to have a multiplayer dialog system
First MMO to have any dialog system
First MMO to have a cover mechanic
First MMO to have completely unique class story lines.
First MMO to have a moral choice system
First MMO to give me the option of how I complete quests
First MMO with unique companion character for each class.
First MMO with companion affection and romance
First MMO to completely voice over all the quests
First MMO I've ever played that actually rewarded players for exploring.
First MMO where you actually play a character and not just an avatar for you in the game.

That's just off the top of my head. There are tons of other small nice features, like area looting, the fact that you can tell the quality of the drop from looking at it, and things like how crafting can be done while you're offline.

Pretty much this...

NO innovation whatsoever? Come on guys...

Even if the GAMEPLAY is pretty much the same, I would hardly say TOR has zero innovations whatsoever.

None of that is innovative, and most companies wouldn't dream of taking the time to fully voice-over their game because it's both expensive, and somewhat insane to ask people to clear out that much of their hard drive 10 years ago. Forcing your players to read isn't a bad thing, and letting people hear the game in complete voice acting isn't actually anything special. Gamers these days are pampered.

Most MMOs have you play a persona rather than an actual character because the entire idea behind an MMORPG is to have you insert yourself into an environment, not play an interactive movie. This is something Blizzard did not understand with WoW.

The romance system and the companion systems are nothing innovative; they've been done before.

Because anyone can do it fairly easily exploration has to give mild rewards. Blizzard gave you a tabard and some XP.

No one is saying TOR isn't good, it's just not anything you've never seen before either from Bioware, or the industry at large. Slapping these things on an MMO chassis doesn't make it innovative. Innovative would be porting the FPS genre into an MMORPG and keeping all aspects of the game functional.

 

[viranimus]

Snip of entirely too many words for both parties.

Wow.. I am really sorry you wasted all that time disecting what I wrote only to have missed the entire point of me writing it. I never said ToR should not have these types of mechanics present. What I was saying is these are ways that Bioware chose to copy WoW that they could have used to differentiate themselves from WoW by slightly modifying the mechanics and making them their own.

Ill use your points.

Spoiler

Community called for it, the system they had before just confused people with different colors. I also like how you failed to recognize orange, customization gear, which lets you keep pretty much any armor set you like all the way till the end game. It's on it's own tier as well, being orange.

Uhhhm I think it s a grievous error to imply that WoW players make up the whole of the community. And watching the development of the game and the forums I really never once saw any sort of outcry for this. so I am curious where your basing that demand as originating from.

As for Orange, Yes. it is a different color with the unique principle of being designed to be the equivalent of standard gear that you have to rebuild every couple of levels. That IS different, but I didnt mention it because its not where Bioware was intentionally mimicking WoW, and where Bioware failed to make that their own. Even if by making it their own it consisted of using a completely different color set for each tier. That little difference could go a long way.

How would you change this? Having it say delete instead of just deleting it is just common sense, just because wow did it, doesn't mean that it shouldn't be in TOR or in any other MMO.

Instead of having to write out DELETE as a confirmation, give a dialog box that says "this is perma. and cannot be undone, do you wish to continue deleting char _name_? and having players click a check box to confirm. Many other MMOs have illustrated a wide variety of how to accomplish this.

Again how would you change something as simple and necessary as a taxi system? You also failed to mention quick travel, which lets you teleport to any place you visited on the planet before.

On the taxi system. A: they could have just used the quick travel system already in place, or B: instead of forcing you to visit all the stops betweeen point A & F (even though you cant get off on a stop if you change your mind) it could travel directly from A to F with a unique route. Also, there is no reason to eat 5 min of time every time you want to travel so the "trip" seeings as nothing actually happens on it, could be implied and in essence just transport you where you were wanting to go.

Korriban existed in the lore way before durotar, as well as Nal Hutta existed before Tirisfal Glades. Not to mention that Korriban is a desert, not a rocky plains, and that Hutta is a swamp not a forest. The two share literally no similarities whatsoever and anyone who's played the game could tell you so.

Yes.. I get it. Star Wars predates WoW. Your not seeing the point. The point is the basic design esthetic, zone assets and color pallet. Durotaur/Korriban = Orangeish brown rocky dirty areas with high draw distance. Tristfal/Hutta = Hazy area with a lighter but dull foggy color, diminished draw distance with gently sloping hills and trees creating a more organic landscape. Though you could also point out an automatic comparison would be drawn by splitting the starting areas out between 2 differing locales was another missed opportunity. Bioware could have just as easily had all the empire start on Korriban and have it been sound from a lore standpoint as Sith, Agents and bounty hunters would all have logical reason to report to the home of the dark council.

Not every class gets over sized shoulder pads, and just because the body types are more or less the same, doesn't mean everyone else looks the same, there's a enough gear diversity, as well as things like the orange gear, that makes everyone looks extremely different. Not to mention that the character creator has a lot more face options, making it so your character is a lot more unique (I've never seen two people who look the same, without intentionally doing so).

Your response isnt even discussing the same thing or acknowledging what I was talking about, so I wont even bother to address it.

Not even sure what your complaing about here. The preview feature looks like wows? ok?

No. What I was saying is the command click to initiate it (as in shift click) is identical. Other MMOs have this ability but do not use that keybinding to access it. It was a missed opportunity to be different than WoW, but instead purposely decided to be like WoW.

Now your complaining about standard MMO/RPG controls, "B" or "I" has always opened in the inventory in RPGs, "C" has always opened the character sheet, this is not something TOR "stole" from wow, it's literally in every RPG.

Please expand your experience with MMOs, especially those that were not designed to be WoW clones such as the bevy of those from asia before you make such a claim because that is simply wrong.

How is this unacceptable? Mobs travel in packs of 3+ I fail to see, how this copies from wow at all or how it's a bad thing. It makes players feel stronger and let's you feel like your completely objectives faster.

Because being able to see a camp of NPCs, and being able to intelligently separate them despite them being socially linked makes you feel smarter and can allow you to actually obtain your objectives faster by not having to kill unneeded trash/filler mobs if your smart enough to be able to extract your objective mob away from the pack that surrounds it. Basically its a bad thing, because WoW did this, and Wow basically killed the art of "pulling" by doing so.

They also got rid of wow's stupid rez sickness mechanic, which punished players for dying by making it so they effectively couldn't play the game until it wore off. And since there's no other real death penalty, why not use armor degradation? What's wrong with armor breaking when you die?

There is nothing wrong with a death penalty. I would say that if I completely obliterate a Jedi by one shotting it, its entirely possible for me to have just jammed a light saber right in their face, thus having no impact on the integrity of the jedi's boots. So is it really logical to have gear deterioration that made no sense?

I agree with you that the rez sickness was nonsense. However it was also optional. And as for equipment deterioration via death. I get it, and its not entirely unrealistic, but as you stated there is no other real death penalty. So, given that Bioware thought so little of death penalty , why not use it as a chance to further differentiate itself and just do away with death penalty all together?



You are correct though, all of these listed are nitpicky complaints. Though the problem is that I would be insane to try to illustrate every instance where Bioware failed to differentiate itself from WoW. So this list is just a minor snapshot of the virtually unending list that one could create. Those little nitpicky complains easily add up and illustrate a much uglier picture. I only gave a list of 10 off the top of my head because no one has the time to write every comparable item out and really, I was just writing a quick post so I could get back to working on my Sith.

My point is not that Bioware was wrong to take inspiration from wows gameplay mechanics. It looks rather silly when you dissect quote someone, put words in their mouth and still somehow manage to miss the point they were making. They missed the point of "taking inspiration from" and that is "making it your own", which they failed to do. If you cannot see how the comparisons can be made then you need to look closer at both titles. If you cannot see how it could be done differently, then you need to expand your knowledge of MMOs in general to something other than just WoW. By being so closely tied, ToR missed its opportunity to be different, its own entity or unique.

Thats why I bring it up. Yes the narrative elements are innovative for MMOs, but every bit of Innovation they put in invariably gets overshadowed by its cliched gameplay mechanics. The game is like an evolution of what WoW set forth. But by mimicking the gameplay so closely ToR feels much more like instead of being MMO 2.0, it feels more like WoW version 1.5

 

[shadowform]

While the company admits that its game will not redefine MMO gameplay, it maintains that TOR is at least as innovative as most games in the RTS or FPS markets - if not more so.

...except you aren't an FPS or RTS game.

This is like someone defending the gameplay of BF3 because it's deeper and more complex than Tetris.

 

[RedEyesBlackGamer]

My god, Bioware has become very arrogant.

They've been so for a very long time. It'd made worse by their ignorance of several aspects of gaming history, INCLUDING the history of the genre they are known for making- RPGs.

I know. I still remember when Erickson sounded off on JRPGs. I used to be a big fan of them. Now, not so much.

 

[CommanderKirov]

No Bioware. You made a great MMO, but you did not create something cutting edge and innovative.

It's not a bad thing, really.

 

[Racthoh]

It's Mass Effect the MMO, which is just Dragon Age in space. Their games are exactly the same, with the same moral choice stuff to companion interaction. It wouldn't surprise me if you can have sex in TOR either because every other Bioware game builds up to that moment anyway.

The game might be an alt makers heaven, but everything they tout from their single player "expertise" does not transfer over into a meaningful MMO endgame.

 

[Synek]

Innovation is not making a zombie invasion patch.

 

[Atmos Duality]

Dear Bioware,
You've got this whole "peer review" process backwards.
It's up to you to produce something, and *WE* will let you know if it's actually innovative, relative to what WE play.

K?

 

[Jahandar]

I'm not saying it's completely new but it changes many things which I don't like much anymore about current MMO's, there is reason enough to switch to it.
For example, the boss fights don't happen in instances, they happen in the normal world. When someone summoned a dragon nearby you can participate, it doesn't matter whether you have the quest or not, you can simply participate in defeating it. Regardless whether you have the quest or whether you're in the group/guild/faction with the other people, you'll get rewarded with loot, exp etc.
Another thing which always bothered me about MMO's which is different in Guild Wars 2 is that, every class can be a DPS/tank/healer. No more waiting for that one person to come, only to fight a boss.
This is how I view difference in MMO's. Using some things from old MMO's but also changing them enough, to to warrant switching to that game.

Not one of these GW2 "innovations" are new. I have seen each one in previous MMOs.

An evolution of an MMO yes, an innovation? No where near

You might want to look up the difference between "Innovation" and "Invention" )

This. Technology evolves through a series of innovations.



I would also posit that SWTOR at launch is more innovative than WoW was at launch. WoW didn't offer innovation (MMO veterens will recall each of its features pre-existing in other MMOs), what it offered was polish. So innovation isn't even the proper/only way to judge the quality or future success of a game.

 

[Vrach]

Opinion (and one hardly related to what I initially said even). You could say the same for Half Life by claiming FPSs should be centred around gameplay rather than story (and you'd be in more right with saying that for FPSs than you would be for MMOs, though imho, both claims are nothing short of stupid)

Story driven experiences may work for leveling but it does not work when you introduce the aspect of multiplayer to the game. You can't exactly immerse yourself into the story when you've got five other people besides you trying to do the same. A story driven experience will take away from the grind that is leveling but when you do eventually reach the maximum level and start doing end game content, which involves teaming up with other players and such, the story will stop mattering. What WILL start mattering are the social interactions and the gameplay. Those two concepts are the pillars of MMO's and ignoring them is not an option if you want to create a successful game.

Blizzard tried to implement a story driven experience in Wrath of the Lich King in the form of an end game 5 man dungeon and whilst it was a nice surprise, players eventually stopped giving a shit. They ended up allowing players to skip the majority of the story and get to the gameplay because so many people complained about having to sit through endless dialogue they've heard countless times before.

True innovation in the MMO genre is doing away with the grinding mechanics. Implementing a well written story isn't exactly what I'd call a step forward.

Have you actually played this game or are you just guessing based on what you've seen/heard? Because I'm strongly guessing the latter from your post.

First off, there's no "may" in "story driven experience works for leveling". It works 100% and the very few who don't like it can easily skip through all the dialogue. I've leveled several characters through my few years of playing WoW and it was a pain in the arse every single time, even when I had someone to level with, talk and pass the time all the way through. I remember my first character being a nightmare - I like the story, I'm not against reading the quests (Morrowind is still my all time favourite game), but WoW had such downright uninteresting drivel that even for that first character, when the game was supposed to be completely new and fresh for me (and with Guild Wars my previous MMO, my expectations were NOT high), I just threw a few music albums together and stuck them on repeat while leveling.

If you think making the leveling fun is insignificant, well, I imagine you're a hardcore raider who's really focused on the end game and end game alone. Now, there's nothing wrong with that, I've been a hardcore raider for several years back in WoW and I get ya, but even I really hated leveling in WoW and having it made fun in TOR ups how much I enjoy the game by quite a bit - and to a large number of the MMO population who is more alt-oriented, TOR is nothing but a godsend.

Now, with that aside, the story DOES work with a multiplayer aspect. My favourite things right now ARE exactly the Flashpoints and the multiplayer dialogue could not work better. And no, it doesn't get stale, because the dialogue has a large number of options and it takes quite a bit of time for you to run through all of them, especially as the choice of the options is not down to you.

Even if/when you're bored of them, the multiplayer content is absolutely not cluttered with dialogue, there's a bit of it at the beginning and the end of the Flashpoint and that's it. Hell, if you don't like it, I'm fairly certain you can ENTIRELY avoid the dialogue for most Flashpoints, because it's usually set before you enter the instance and once you finish it (few exceptions here and there), so if you don't care about it, just go into the FP and exit once it's done. You can even get the quest on your own and skip through all the dialogue.

To your Blizzard content, comparing what Blizzard did in WotLK to TOR is like comparing an 8 bit game to Skyrim. The reason WotLK story got boring is:
1) It's utter, inconceivable drivel for the most part
2) It's delivered through MONOLOGUES. 0 interaction, just stand there and wait for Johnny the Janitor to read through his script so you can get going

Besides, given time and demand, similar options to WotLK can be introduced into TOR to skip the dialogue entirely in Flashpoints (there are a few that have dialogue inside the Flashpoint). I'm sure with time we'll see such things, but for now, I really haven't seen anyone asking for it. Also, the main focus of the end gamers are the Operations which really don't have much dialogue to them at all, just ones before and after the raid, so again, non-issue.

And honestly, I'm not feeling the grind in TOR at all. You have "go kill x" and "go loot y" quests everywhere, look at almost any non-linear game, you'll find it.

Now, bottom line, don't get me wrong, TOR is not perfect. Not by a long shot, it's got a lot of work to be done on it. But it's fun as it is, so it's not like we're sitting here praying for updates to make it fun (which I'll tell you, as a hardcore raider, I've spent pretty much 90% of my time doing in WoW since the pre-WotLK patch [and I would've done it before then as well, but I was in a mediocre guild, so the stream of content was good enough for us at the time]), and for an MMO that just came out, it's more than just good enough.

 

[AndyFromMonday]

snip

1. And that's what leveling was like back before Cataclysm. In fact, that's what leveling was like in all MMO's back then except most MMO's had much more unforgiving death mechanics. Curiously, I was never bored with WoW when I first leveled through it way back during Burning Crusade. It all seemed exciting and new, which is what I believe the majority of players are experiencing right now with TOR. Eventually it will become a drivel as well, that's just how the world works.

2. I did raid briefly during Wrath of the Lich King and that was certainly much more fun than leveling. So was end game PvP, actually. Look, I have nothing against making leveling fun. The thing is, I want something to do once I reach the level cap. From what I've seen on forums and such, a lot of players are complaining about a lack of end game content.

To me at least, the most fun I've had whilst leveling was when the "MMO" part kicked in. I remember doing World PvP in Tanaris or running from the level 70's who occasionally took a stroll through Duskwood because fuck you, that's why. It was fun, it was dynamic and it certainly made Azeroth feel more like a living, breathing world. That's what I want from an MMO and I'm guessing the reason I dislike TOR is because it doesn't focus on the MMO as much as it focuses on the RPG.

3. Skipping dialogues in TOR would be like skipping strategy in an RTS game. The entire selling point of the game is its supposedly complex story driven experience.

4. So what's the point then? The meat of the game is the story driven experience. If TOR's raids employ little to no dialogue then it seems to me that it's nothing more than a WoW clone with a somewhat decent leveling experience. The thing is, the leveling is exactly what I dislike. The story driven experience detracts from the actual world. I don't want to interact with NPC's, I want to interact with actual players. Interacting with NPC's is fine and dandy in a single player game but in MMO's you'd expect the focus to be the multiplayer part.

Remember the Blood Plague in WoW? It is, to date, the ONLY player made World Event in any MMO. That's the sort of dynamic I want from games like TOR. I know it seems kind of confusing but I hope I managed to get my point across.

5. "Go to location X, kill/collect Y" is the basis of every single MMO to date. If EA wanted to innovate the genre, they should have focused on changing the base formula.

6. I'm not saying it isn't good for what it is, but it's not what I enjoy in an MMO and it's not what I believe MMO's should be. EA touting TOR as the "next big thing" isn't helping either. For the record, I haven't particularly enjoyed WoW since Activision took over management.

 

[Vrach]

1. And that's what leveling was like back before Cataclysm. In fact, that's what leveling was like in all MMO's back then except most MMO's had much more unforgiving death mechanics. Curiously, I was never bored with WoW when I first leveled through it way back during Burning Crusade. It all seemed exciting and new, which is what I believe the majority of players are experiencing right now with TOR. Eventually it will become a drivel as well, that's just how the world works.

I've played Cataclysm and fell into the same routine. It didn't fix a damn thing, the quests are still boring as is the way they're delivered. And as I said, I remember back to my first character and leveling it, I was psyched as hell for WoW, my mate was playing it etc., I was not feeling leveling AT ALL, it was boring and the only reasons I got through was that I wanted to play with my best friend and I had a lot of good music to keep my head from falling.

2. I did raid briefly during Wrath of the Lich King and that was certainly much more fun than leveling. So was end game PvP, actually. Look, I have nothing against making leveling fun. The thing is, I want something to do once I reach the level cap. From what I've seen on forums and such, a lot of players are complaining about a lack of end game content.

So you haven't played TOR, thanks for the confirmation - I'd suggest you try it before you knock it. As for the end game, yes, I hear the same stuff, but let's dot down a few things:
- This is a new MMO and one that's not weighted a full 100% on the end game. Don't get me wrong, the end game is of the utmost importance and what the game will eventually hang on - but unlike the other MMOs on the market (at least to me), I don't feel the need to get there as soon as possible because there's nothing interesting before that.
- As a new MMO, if you compare it to a veteran MMO that dominated the market for years, of course it's not gonna hold up. Check what WoW had when it launched and try comparing it to that instead.
- Due to the first note (as well as the fact they launched right before the holidays), BioWare has time to flesh out and throw out new Operations and more end game content, hell they're doing it already, there's a patch coming in 3 days, barely a month since launch.

The base is there. Do they need to build on it with more, and possibly better end game? Yes, they do. But that's not at all impossible to do with what they have.

To me at least, the most fun I've had whilst leveling was when the "MMO" part kicked in. I remember doing World PvP in Tanaris or running from the level 70's who occasionally took a stroll through Duskwood because fuck you, that's why. It was fun, it was dynamic and it certainly made Azeroth feel more like a living, breathing world. That's what I want from an MMO and I'm guessing the reason I dislike TOR is because it doesn't focus on the MMO as much as it focuses on the RPG.

Which part aren't you getting in TOR? World PvP is not only enabled, it's encouraged. Hell, even the PvE servers that are normally devoid of it have World PvP zones, even an entire planet built for it. I've run into higher level enemy players a few times, but being on a PvE server and not in those zones, I didn't have a problem with it. Had I been on a PvP server, I'd have gotten my arse handed to me in 20 pieces by the Republic guild that was within spitting distance killing a world boss. Speaking of which, WoW threw out world bosses since TBC (fuck knows why) and in TOR, I've already been in a few raids to kill them and I'm not even 50 yet. You wanna talk about the MMO part of an MMORPG, tell me where it is in WoW that I soloed through 1-80 several times, whereas in TOR I'm repeatedly grouping up for quests and world bosses (20 man groups feel pretty MMO-ey to me).

3. Skipping dialogues in TOR would be like skipping strategy in an RTS game. The entire selling point of the game is its supposedly complex story driven experience.

Hey, if it suits your taste, it's there. That's not the entire selling point, it's the main one, but everything else (bar the fully fleshed out end game maybe) is there if that's all you're into. It's stupid I agree, it's like playing Infantry-only maps in Battlefield, but not as stupid as complaining about having the option to play the way you're saying a game should be designed to be played.

4. So what's the point then? The meat of the game is the story driven experience. If TOR's raids employ little to no dialogue then it seems to me that it's nothing more than a WoW clone with a somewhat decent leveling experience. The thing is, the leveling is exactly what I dislike. The story driven experience detracts from the actual world. I don't want to interact with NPC's, I want to interact with actual players. Interacting with NPC's is fine and dandy in a single player game but in MMO's you'd expect the focus to be the multiplayer part.

Ok raid part first, you're given context, which is something I enjoy (TBC did that a bit with Black Temple, but it's still not even close to what TOR pulls off, especially in the quality/deliverance). Raiding is still raiding and the gameplay is the core there. They're not reinventing the wheel, just giving you something to go with it.

And the problem of WoW is EXACTLY that it boils down to the "raid or die" mindset. Now, this is coming from someone who used to raid 5 days a week and run 10 hour (in a row) raids on Saturdays as "leisure time" - it sucks arse when there's nothing to an MMO other than raiding. It leaves you sitting in the capital city waiting for a raid to happen and when it fails to form, you're left with no alternative. That's as bad as you can get for the game as a whole, there's no fun in it, it's bad for the social element of the game (ever been in a guild where raids fail to form? I've been in casual guilds, I've been in hardcore guilds, it ain't pretty on either side) and it turns it into a second job and not even an enjoyable one at that.

Now as for the player interaction, I've leveled several times through WoW, I always did it solo. Player interaction my arse, I grouped for an occasional dungeon and that was it, unless I set out to level with someone, there was no player interaction involved at all.

TOR? Every single zone I've been in, I've grouped up with people. Group quests are everywhere and they're usually dailies, so you'll see people doing them more than once (someone asking for help with a group quest you did yesterday? Not only can you help them, you can do it again and get the reward). There are also group areas, which is basically an area intended for groups of 4 which have a series of tasks for you to do (story's there, but no dialogue, mostly told through gameplay/objectives/events). My fondest moment in TOR was when I grouped with a tank/healer duo for a group quest, then shared an area quest, which kept us busy for the next half hour or more. Was a lot of fun and pretty intense, even somewhat challenging (was probably a bit harder than intended as we used a DPS companion, but we were all veteran players, so I doubt there's much difference to an average group)

Remember the Blood Plague in WoW? It is, to date, the ONLY player made World Event in any MMO. That's the sort of dynamic I want from games like TOR. I know it seems kind of confusing but I hope I managed to get my point across.

You mean the pre-WotLK zombie invasion? Please don't tell me you mean the zombie invasion. That thing was fun for about an hour or two, then everyone got so sick of it, most players took a few days vacation from the game. I remember players asking for the event to be cut short, that's how fun it was.

Ok, read up on it, the only thing WoW did there was have a massive playerbase and a glitch. I fail to see how you can praise the game based on that event when it's entirely unrelated to the game.

5. "Go to location X, kill/collect Y" is the basis of every single MMO to date. If EA wanted to innovate the genre, they should have focused on changing the base formula.

Skyrim quest: "Go get me 8 bear pelts". Sorry, no, that's the basis of most RPGs, the linear ones merely cut it out by masking it as a "Go through that cave and come out through the other end (during which you'll collect 8 bear pelts)".

Definition (courtesy of wikipedia just for the sake of quoting something half official, though anyone, myself included, would give you the same definition): Grinding is a term used in video gaming to describe the process of engaging in repetitive and/or boring tasks not pertaining to the story line of the game. So yeah, TOR does get rid of the grind.

6. I'm not saying it isn't good for what it is, but it's not what I enjoy in an MMO and it's not what I believe MMO's should be. EA touting TOR as the "next big thing" isn't helping either. For the record, I haven't particularly enjoyed WoW since Activision took over management.

I don't give a toss about what EA touts it as. I have my own views on companies (not a positive one on EA thanks to their marketing, customer service and publishing skills in general), but that doesn't get in the way of my gaming. If I enjoy something, I enjoy it, I don't give two shits if there are millions of people buying it on day one, if it's remarkably similar to the previous game etc. - if I got tired of it, fine, but I don't care about it's reputation. And any game, definitely MMOs, benefits from having a proper story element. Yes, there's more to MMOs than story, but there's also more to TOR than story - which is something everyone seems to be utterly blind to, just because story was the most advertised element.

 

[Savber]

Well, the game's development costs certainly had an innovative pricetag. I'm sure their cost/profit graphs will have an innovative break-even point. I can't see any other kind of innovation in TOR, though.

Ummm...It's the first time there has been a Star Wars game...

That's a Made by Bioware...

That's an MMO...

Umm...

First MMO to put this much emphasis on story
first MMO to have a multiplayer dialog system
First MMO to have any dialog system
First MMO to have a cover mechanic
First MMO to have completely unique class story lines.
First MMO to have a moral choice system
First MMO to give me the option of how I complete quests
First MMO with unique companion character for each class.
First MMO with companion affection and romance
First MMO to completely voice over all the quests
First MMO I've ever played that actually rewarded players for exploring.
First MMO where you actually play a character and not just an avatar for you in the game.

That's just off the top of my head. There are tons of other small nice features, like area looting, the fact that you can tell the quality of the drop from looking at it, and things like how crafting can be done while you're offline.

Pretty much this...

NO innovation whatsoever? Come on guys...

Even if the GAMEPLAY is pretty much the same, I would hardly say TOR has zero innovations whatsoever.

None of that is innovative, and most companies wouldn't dream of taking the time to fully voice-over their game because it's both expensive, and somewhat insane to ask people to clear out that much of their hard drive 10 years ago. Forcing your players to read isn't a bad thing, and letting people hear the game in complete voice acting isn't actually anything special. Gamers these days are pampered.

The romance system and the companion systems are nothing innovative; they've been done before.

No one is saying TOR isn't good, it's just not anything you've never seen before either from Bioware, or the industry at large. Slapping these things on an MMO chassis doesn't make it innovative. Innovative would be porting the FPS genre into an MMORPG and keeping all aspects of the game functional.

As stated, I define innovation as trying something new. Bioware has created one of FIRST fully-voiced MMO. I don't care whether someone like it or approves of it. In trying something new, Bioware brought a FULLY-VOICED MMORPG which has NEVER been done before. Name another MMORPG that can at the very least match TOR in the story/voice department. Call it pampered or whatever but just because you think it's "a pampering" doesn't mean fully voice-acting is NOT an innovation in storytelling for the MMORPG genre. Also tell me another MMORPG where it has unique class stories.

Also you interested me... what other MMORPGs have a similar romance and companion system similar to Bioware RPGs?

I definitely want to get my hands on that if that exists.

Having played from Guild Wars to LOTR Online, I don't recall any significant companion that played a crucial part in the plot etc.

 

[ReinWeisserRitter]

Attention, people who think Bioware importing damn near everything they do in every other game they make into this game: They've done it in damn near every other game they've made. That's kind of the opposite of innovative; it doesn't automatically become a revolution because they shoehorned it into an online game model.

Attention, Bioware: You're full of more shit than the sewers surrounding every Taco Bell in the world.

Well, they added a coherent story and voice acting to MMOs, so I guess it is at least slightly innovative.

While this is just an opinion based on not knowing any better. "Coherent story" is ridiculously subjective, and voice acting in the genre has already appeared in a number of games. There are games beyond World of Warcraft, everyone (although there are plenty of people who will argue that has a "coherent story" in the first place), even if this game does copy its ass off.