BioWare: MMORPGs Have "No Point"

Keava

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While i agree with them that MMORPGs do lack consistent and storyline that would push you through the vent of game, and personally would love them to succeed with that plan i think they are making a bit of mistake here.

Just look how many MMOs out there have RP servers, how many of those servers compare dot PvP/PvE ones and how many people on those supposed RP servers actually bother to RP or know anything about in-game story. Problem is people dont care. They want shiny new gear, bigger bosses to stab and ability to gank and grief other to boost their own ego or just burn some time.

Im not sure that in this case story will lure the masses to play the game. From reading many of comments on BioWares single player games you can easily see that there is plenty of people that dont even bother to go to through conversations, skipping them to get to action part right away.
 

HolidayBrick

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Future headline:

"BioWare: Every RPG Should Be A BioWare RPG"

They're very opinionated over there aren't they?
 

Zing

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Cowabungaa said:
Zing said:
That's your right to like it, however I'm pretty sure it's a fact(as you've just said in your own post), that most people don't find this fun, and just raced through it to 80.
But what the OP was about is that most MMO's don't offer a point, that the leveling content is disconnected with the storylines and endgame. But that ain't true in WotLK, it's rather obvious that they do, that they do tie-in the leveling quests with the storylines and endgame. And if people don't find that fun, I doubt SW:TOR will change that.

But what makes you think that the quests in WotLK are tacked on then?
It is tacked on. Just look at every quest, they are collect x or kill x. Occasionally there's a funny little gimmick like using a vehicle or bombs or something. But either way the quests are then just tacked on, they are disconnected.

TOR's quests are fully voiced with plot, dialog, cut-scenes and moral choices. How's that not going to change things?
 

Cowabungaa

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Zing said:
It is tacked on. Just look at every quest, they are collect x or kill x. Occasionally there's a funny little gimmick like using a vehicle or bombs or something. But either way the quests are then just tacked on, they are disconnected.

TOR's quests are fully voiced with plot, dialog, cut-scenes and moral choices. How's that not going to change things?
Although that doesn't make it feel disconnected to me, as I always read the quest text, I do see your point. But even that WotLK takes care of with all kinds of events; like burning that incense on various places to find out what happened to the vrykul (that was Alliance by the way, not sure about Horde), Wrath's Gate, the Lich King himself intervening in quest lines that are tied to him, the Icegiants, the Titan related quests (with Loki ending up getting captured and all, if I remember correctly, it's been a while) and I can go on like that for a while.

I see your point; just a piece of text and "kill X and return to Random NPC #12434" feels rather disconnected, but that's exactly what WotLK fixes. Now of course there are still such quests as you mention (Nersingwary!), and I have no doubt that SW:TOR will have those too, but in WotLK they did expand on that. Northrend is a lot more alive and active than Outland or the rest of Azeroth.
 

Jandau

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Bioware has been talking a big game recently, but I honestly do hope they can live up to it. They are my favourite developer and have put out the best RPGs in recent years, so I'm optimistic about the whole thing. However, since GW2 has my attention as well, and they are promising no monthly subscription, TOR will have to be really awesome to get me to fork cash over on a monthly basis...
 

Thoric485

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This feels like their greatest project yet. A Bioware single-player RPG with great story is a shock to no-one nowadays, but they're really treading dangerous waters with this. I hope they succeed. I know i'll be there on opening day.
 

Eclectic Dreck

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FargoDog said:
Is it just me or are BioWare being extremely controversial recently? First the FFXIII thing, and now this, which is sure to piss quite a few MMO players off.
In both cases, Bioware has made a decent point. While I'm sure there was always a reason I was collecting Zheeva hooves in the Barrens, I couldn't tell you what it was save that I needed the experience inherent in the act in order to increment a set of numbers high enough that I could play the same game my friends enjoyed. The most common reason people cite when defending their involvement in any MMO is the "social" aspect - that is, the fun you make in the game with your friends. Games like WoW, or Eve or any of the rest do little more than give you arbitrary points where a reward is parcelled out. It is left to the player to figure out how to make that basic experience fun.

When it comes to FF13 not being an RPG, by the standard Bioware uses when they make a game the case is ironclad. The trouble is, the term is incredibly nebulous. Literally it simply refers to a game where you play a role - something that applies to almost any game. More generally, other factors are considered that can be broadly grouped into Narrative Agency and Character Agency.

Narrative agency simply refers to the ability of a player to direct the course of the story. At the most open, you find Rougelikes where the only narrative is the one the player crafts through their actions. At the least open you find games like Modern Warfare where you proceed through an elaborate tunnel and engage in gun battles in dramatic set pieces until you reach the conclusion. Somewhere in the middle, you find games with alternate endings (Such as Deus Ex or Heavy Rain) or games where the major elements are fixed but the particulars vary (Fallout, Dragon Age). Final Fantasy 13 sits decisively on the Modern Warfare side of things as all the player can do is trudge from beginning to end and their only impact on the story is choosing to carry on with it.

Character Agency refers to the ability of a player to define their character and influence characters around the PC. At the most open, you have a game like Eve where, by virtue of the inclusion of large numbers of real people, your actions not only define who your character is but how other's respond. A brutal life of Piracy not only affects your dealings with NPCs but also causes other players to be wary (at best) of your presence causing all but the most stalwart to flee. At the least open you have a game like Final Fantasy, where the characters are all defined before hand and the player has no ability to impact either the main character or the supporting cast. Somewhere in the middle you have a game like Red Dead Redemption or Infamous, where at least some character traits can be defined by the player.

There is of course a third category, or rather an addendum to the idea of Character Agency, which is the idea of character customization. This extends beyond simply controlling how a character interacts with the world and generally delves into the actual systems that govern how the game plays. At the most open, you have a game like Oblivion or (even better) Eve Online. Such games do not offer classes in the traditional sense and allow players to pick and choose skills they believe will be useful. There is nothing to stop someone from playing a Mage specializing in Illusion magic while wearing heavy armor in Oblivion and no system that prevents a Recon specialist in Eve from branching out and trying their hand in fleet combat in a battleship. At the other end of the spectrum you have games with literally no progression in this sense. Most First Person Shooters of the modern era fall into this category as a player character is often no better equipped at the end of the game than at the beginning. Final Fantasy 13 falls short of the closed extreme, but only just. There is an ability to customize but roles are quite strictly defined regardless. Arbitrary limits are placed throughout. Your characters do advance, and while the precise path is up to the player the end result is the same regardless.

It seems to be fairly clear that by this standard, FF13 would certainly not qualify as an RPG. You have no agencey over character or narrative, and only the most limited control over customization. Even within the JRPG umbrella it stands out. While it maintains some of the mechanical tropes common to the genre, in most cases it diverges wildly. It is not at all uncommon in a JRPG to have no control over the characters or the narrative and even the idea of character customization isn't guranteed. In this respect, to compare the JRPG to the western equivlent, the JRPG is less about a role playing game than it is about a turn based, narrative focused strategy game.

In short, by Western standard, FF13 would fail to be classified as an RPG. By the Japanese standard, while it strays greatly at times, it probably maintains enough of the tropes to still be counted as being in the JRPG genre by the fans.
 

Flux07

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I can't wait for this MMO, especially made by Bioware, I hope that it succeeds. :D
 

Mandal0re

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I love Bioware theyre my favourite dev but i cant help but think that this claim is well....bullshit. Theyve already revealed that each class will have its own origins story to play through so that would be like a single player campaign for the first 20 levels or however long it lasts and then after that it will all be standard mmorpg fair with a few cinematic dialogue sequences during instances. More story than a standard mmorpg yes,but still far less than a single player bioware game. And anyway,theres no end so how can you implement a good story?
 

Casual Shinji

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Isn't that the whole point of MMORPG's; that they have no point?

If they had a point the game would end wich is not the point of an MMORPG. And wich is also why I don't like them.
 

CheckD3

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Novskij said:
CheckD3 said:
Unless they make you part of a bigger something, but that's hard when people don't like to converse with other people, myself included. People are untrustworthy and unreliable...so I won't work with them most of the time...
Erm, considering that in WoW there are thousands of guilds and raids taking place everyday(Which are successful), i think you are compleatly wrong.
So you're saying that I in fact DON'T work alone most of the time? You're also telling me that I don't think that most people online are untrustworthy and such? Insane how you know what's in my mind

I'm not saying that there aren't groups of people and those people who like working with others, I'm just saying that for a MMORPG to work and have group based play, it has to have EVERY member work with people, and I don't feel that way. If given a choice I'd chose to work alone, and there are a lot of others who probably agree. There are those who disagree, I'm sure, but the fact that it's split into 2 groups means that any kind of forced group play would deter the half who don't want to work together, making them less money and thus not working

Not everyone works well with others, and there are people who don't converse with others, so I wouldn't call myself wrong
 

MattAn24

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So.. Um.. Is BioWare ever going to shut their fucking mouths for once? I'm totally sick of hearing about them bitching.

Sure, FFXI: Online's gameplay was rather lame, but the STORY was involving, it was intense... Well, Chains of Promathia was.. Wings of the Goddess pretty much ruined that golden chestnut. Oh well, Final Fantasy XIV looks like it's kicking XI's gameplay to the curb AND keeping the brilliant story-telling. I'll be sticking to that, thanks.
 

Centrophy

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Soviet Heavy said:
If they intend to keep the fun of a singleplayer experience in an MMO setting, make sure I can play the entire game without ever needing to play with others.

The way I play MMO's is solo. I treat it as a singleplayer game that just happens to be going on at the same time as someone else's game in the same room, sort of.

I hate partying up. Nothing breaks the immersion like text bubbles and internet english being spewn around.

If I can complete the game by myself, I will be satisfied.
This please. I used to play a variety of MMOs but I never really played them to play with others or be social. I played them to be in an open world that offered a monstrous amount of content. When I played WoW I read the gibberish quest text because I was interested in a story. I was interested in what I was doing to try and affect the world. That said I can understand, just looking at the subscriber base and friends who still play, that there are a large majority of players who don't care for any of that. I still however will always be a voice for choice. Give me the option to play by myself. At the end of the day it all comes down to whether you (the content creator and partners) get more than two months worth of subscription fees.

On another point... Does anyone remember Asheron's Call? Was anyone around when the GMs/devs would occasionally have high level MOBs attack low level towns and areas? It was an event! In the more recent MMOs that doesn't seem to happen anymore. You don't get dynamic content like that and it's a real shame. I hope ToR tries to bring that aspect into gaming and doesn't have forced party quests, I'm not holding my breath though but I will cross my fingers (I also dislike the art direction but I'm willing to give it a shot.)

*This news junkie would still have preferred a KoToR 3.*
 

brunothepig

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Zeithri said:
There are stories in MMORPG's. Actually quiet a lot of story.
But the great majority of them have no story because korean companies keep pushing out WoW-clones nonstop.

brunothepig said:
Well, if anyone can do this Bioware can... I look forward to this game.
Stop praising them so much.
There are many who can create a story.
Heck, let me count up three for you!

* FFXI
* Anarchy Online
* World of Warcraft

It's already been done so less praise for Bioware <_<
Three? Out of the hundreds of games we have? I'm not saying there aren't any good stories, I can't vouch for Anarchy Online or WoW. I do know I've never enjoyed a Final Fantasy storyline, indeed never loved the games. But my point is, Bioware have produced consistently good, compelling stories, wrapped in great games. So I trust them.
 

Doug

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I have to ask, do the Escapist staff try and troll people with their article titles? Cus its misleading as it implies they've said 'MMORPGs are pointless' when they said "MMORPGs have no story and lack a compelling objective arising from the story".

Anywho, I'm hopeful for SW:TOR as I've enjoyed pretty much every Bioware game I've ever played, including Jade Empire, and I reckon if anyone can get the MMO market to have some actual competition for once, it'll be Bioware.
 

Fayth18

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CKalvin said:
Hmmmm.....

a mmorpg with a thoroughly immersive story can not work. Simple as that, because the story is based around the players which is a shifting changing entity, not something that can be accurately measured and analysed to create a story for.

but if anyone can make it worth playing, Bioware can

ps kotor<3
like i said, LOTRO has already done this...