The title of the thread is right, the content is wrong.
Bioware's problem is that in an attempt to appeal to a larger market they downplayed the cohesion and crunch of their writing in order to prop up spectacle and fluff. They started giving less shits about worldbuilding and more about style (Cerberus, TIM, and Kai Leng are a good example of this), and their games have suffered for it.
Clarification: This isn't to say "you" are a bad person for liking Bioware games. They just stopped making games "for me" and started making games "for you". I'm a bit miffed, yes, but I can get over it by getting frunk off my ass and playing One Finger Death Punch for six hours straight.
their presence in any work of fiction does not need justification outside of fitting the stting, it does not need judgment aside from "have they totally fudged this up?" [i/]not from you of all demographics[/i]
[img/]http://i.imgur.com/5LasHJF.gif[/img] [footnote/]disclaimer: the use of the word "*****" in this context is not directed at any particual poster or meant to cause offence, its just the gif was perfect![/footnote]
yes I damn well said it and I'm sorry if it doesn't pander to some peoples self congratulatory "sit around the campfire and sing kumbya" version things but I am sooooo sick of the self appointed committee of what is and is not acceptable kicking a shit fit because they think THEY ONLY REASON PEOPLE WOULD INCLUDE FREAKS LIKE US IN THEIR ART IS BECAUSE SOMONE FORCED THEM
*deep breaths*....ok
[please ignore everything above this point]
Saetha said:
Here is a cookie. In fact have the whole jar. The self-appointed king of cookies, yours truly here, has decided to give you cookies for thy perfect post. Thy diction, Thy anger and Thy entire being shall fall at my feet and join me in the dark side, dispensing cookies to all who deserve it. And together we shall rule the interwebz with our cookies.
Yanno you're not the default of humanity either, you're not even the default of gay humanity, your post screams self loathing more than it screams at anyone else. Or you're just really thin skinned and super easily baited about your gender preference.
No self respecting gay man or woman has this much energy for fighting an argument they've already won. Most of us normal, respectful, intelligent individuals have been well past the whole "gay" thing for years. I had gay friends in high school and I'm 40 years old now...so its been almost 30 years since then.
Get down off the cross, we need the wood to burn the next social martyr. And seriously, get cool with yourself because this kind of reactivity communicates a serious lack of security with your life choices...and thats not me being mean, or a troll, or even trying to be hurtful...its a genuine statement of concern, this kind of pent up angst can lead to serious psychological problems...if you're not already dealing with them.
I love Dorian and I am a straight male. I think hes a fantastic character and well represented as a confident, self aware, intelligent, charming and funny gay man. Any straight man that can't say the same...probably isn't sure hes straight yet.
And whoever you are, person that I quoted, you may not be sure you're alright with being gay yet. Please get some help with that, cause who you are is just fine.
Oh lol, I think you might have made pressed the wrong quote my young Jedi. If thou will not join me, than you shall be left without cookies. I demand that thou give me cookies, the King of Cookies and master of the darkside demands that thee pay him a tribute of 10 cookie jars and a candy bar. Preferably tomorrow. Or else I shall rain down the wrath of the interwebz upon thee.
Captcha: know your paradoxes. HMMM, seems captcha is a fun of Epica. Oh thee magnificent knave
Oh yeah due to the screwed up quote vomit there, I thought I was quoting you and the original poster of that rant was Vault101...regardless my point still stands.
Gay people are cool, okay?. And gay people need to get cool with being okay.
You know, I was inclined to disagree with OP, but I actually DO agree with this line of thought.
I mean, they have always done companions. And they have also always done sexuality. I mean, in Baldur's Gate 2, you could even have a son in-game.
But I think you hit on an important point. The companions in prior games were that: companions. They went everywhere with you and the characterization expanded while they were with you. You'd be doing other things and they'd quip in with their own thoughts. Their side-quests were extensions of your main gameplay. You'd be walking around and BAM, a messenger tells you So-and-so needs to return to their hometown because their father is dying or something.
Now, characterization is totally separate from gameplay. The companions get carted around like the set-pieces they are. They sit in little holding areas
I haven't played the newest Mass Effect/Inquisition, but I noticed this first around KotoR and then in continued in Jade Empire. I'm sure it is easier from a production perspective but I think it weakens the design siginificantly.
Sure, they used archetypal characters in the earlier BW games, but because they let these characters express themselves and interact with a rich, surrounding world and an established backstory, it was very interesting.
Now, they could be writing the most ground-breaking characters in development. But I don't care. Because I see walls and walls and walls of text delivered in a dry manner without anymore than the occasional player input: Up: Good Response, Middle: Medium Response, Down: Bad Response.
I suspect if they added more flavor of the characters into the gameplay itself, they'd find more players invested enough to slug through those pages and pages of text.
Bioware has always done the companion thing. Them having companions in all their games isn't a new direction; it's the direction they've always been heading in.
HOW?
From what I can gleam from the OP, nothing was made clear... It was spelling errors and grammatical mistakes from half of a complaint.
I like that companions are a large part of the over all story. I like that I can take a break from the killing and the looting to have a nice pseudo conversation with these characters. It's what I know Bioware games for. It is, to me, what they are famous for.
"If it works, don't fix it."
Their formula works, so they won't be fixing it.
Scrap years of work? If you want them to do that, you should expect another several years for the changes you seek to manifest themselves. Why discard all their progress and start again from scratch rather than improve on what they already have? The way I see it, the BioWare that produced writing and characters for Baldur's Gate and Dragon Age Origins doesn't really exist any more, but that doesn't mean it's simply gone "BLERK!" and died. Good people have left the body of the company, which means that it'll forever be a different creature. I look forward to seeing how this new BioWare progresses. Capturing lightning in a bottle is difficult enough to do once with a game series and they arguably did it multiple times in their illustrious past. They'll become adept at their craft as time goes on. Rome wasn't built in a day.
The story affects characters, and characters affect the story. It's a balancing act in every medium, and the best stories are the ones that tend to hit the bullseye. You can have character studies, like evangelion, or cinematic epics with less developed characters, like LotR, but the best stories have one inform the other.
I liked the companions in FF7 quite a lot, because they're heavily involved in the plot. I admit that their gameplay could have been more unique, but if you miss out on Vincent or yuffie, then you missed vitally important background information. Bioware can't view companions as just a feature if the game, they have to consider them as characters who impact the narrative. I though mass effect was excellent at this.
Bioware needs to hire someone who can write actual romances. The stuff I've seen from Inquisition all looks awfully childish. Not everything needs to be innuendo! And for god's sakes, the "hide the sausage" camera shots are just awkward.
At least it isn't as bad as the "let's fuck in the middle of camp while Sten watches" scenes from Origins.
I heard Gaider wrote some of the companion stuff this time. The guy seems to be better at big picture, not so much on personal stuff between characters.
I don't really think DA: I was made from the ground up around companions. There's too much there that isn't centered around them. They even skimped on giving them their own scenes each time you talk to them. Now I just go up to them and talk as all kinds of other stuff happens around me.
Bioware has always been the "gather your party and go" type of western RPG devs. With more diverse gamers entering the community, it only makes sense that they would want more representation. For that I say good, so long as it doesn't overshadow everything else about the character.
Dorian is a good example of this. He's gay, and I guess the first straight up homosexual companion character they've had. All others being Bi, apparently. But his sexuality doesn't define him. He's a Tevinter Mage, and thus a window into that whole society we've been hearing about since the intro to the very first game. He get's to set the record straight through his dialogue and questions we can ask him about his homeland.
Bioware needs to hire someone who can write actual romances. The stuff I've seen from Inquisition all looks awfully childish. Not everything needs to be innuendo! And for god's sakes, the "hide the sausage" camera shots are just awkward.
At least it isn't as bad as the "let's fuck in the middle of camp while Sten watches" scenes from Origins.
Iron Bull's romance path actually seems to be pretty damn good, just because it's so funny.
OT: These are wish fulfilment games. That's just Bioware's thing. They make games where you can feel like "the man": Kicking ass, taking names, spreading your fame, and making all the lads and ladies swoon. It's silly and it doesn't hold much artistic value, but it's a fun fantasy and that's really all it needs to be.
That's usually my problem with these complaints about diversity in games (and other entertainment). People seem to forget that it is just that: entertainment. As you said, Bioware (and many many other companies) make games where you are the center of attention. The be-all end-all hero champion conqueror whatnot who gets all the tail. That. Is. Okay.
A game doesn't have to be representative of actual social values. There's nothing wrong with power fantasies. They're just that: fantasies.
Would it be good if there were games that catered to other genders and sexualities? Sure. It would make the industry better for everyone, not just consumers. Do I think it's wrong when companies decide not to or do it laughably inept like Bioware? No. Stupid, maybe. Wrong, no.
The moment someone comes with actual proof that the social contexts in games have any relevant meaning outside of said media, I'll change that opinion. And while you're at it, prove games make people violent, because I hear there are a lot of people still waiting for that one as well.
After DA:I i want them to stay on the course they heading, game is one of the best they ever made, plus they said that Inquisition is template for all Bioware games to come, so i'm optimistic of what is to come and direction they are going. Game made around companions from ground up works well for me.
After DA:I i want them to stay on the course they heading, game is one of the best they ever made, plus they said that Inquisition is template for all Bioware games to come, so i'm optimistic of what is to come and direction they are going. Game made around companions from ground up works well for me.
After DA:I i want them to stay on the course they heading, game is one of the best they ever made, plus they said that Inquisition is template for all Bioware games to come, so i'm optimistic of what is to come and direction they are going. Game made around companions from ground up works well for me.
Tehnically, you were judging Florianne...or more precise, what was left of her. Well at least the skull will be rehabilitated by doing public theatre about the evils of evil and the box will become end table for orphans
I can?t understand why people are freaking out over characters? sexuality. I doesn?t affect the gameplay or story of Bioware?s games, so why the heck is everyone getting so worked up about it. Last I checked, when optional things are unpleasant, the best thing to do would be to avoid them or ignore them.
Your profile says you're American, so surely you must have heard at least one of these sob stories about good, straight American Christian Republicans who are totally straight but were lured down the path of darkness because some hot young piece of ass came along and they just had to tape it but they are TOTALLY NOT GAY because MURRICA and JAYSUS, right?
Optional homosexuality in games is exactly like that. If you put it in, the offended parties HAVE to partake. They can't help themselves!
Absolutely true. Romance in these games are 100% optional so if these gamers don?t like it why do they even participate in it? Because it?s there? Yes, that?s the first thing that always comes to me. There?s an optional feature in a game I don?t like it, so the first thing I do is participate! Second thing I do is go on the internet to complain about it when I?m done.
I started playing Harvest Moon 64 as a kid and never grew out of the series. However, ever since Magic Melody or whatever, I stopped getting married and having a family. In my opinion, all of the potential wives always look like children, so I?m totally not interested. However, since it?s completely optional and I?m not interested in it, I ignore that feature of that game. I wouldn?t dare act self-entitled enough to tell devs that they need to revert years of work because they have an optional feature I don?t like.
Why not criticize the game for something that actually holds weight instead of the sexuality of a few characters? I mean, this thread wouldn?t exist if Dorian and Sera weren?t gay, right? And yea, during my first and second run through their sexuality never even came up. So if their sexuality wasn?t publicized so much, I wouldn?t have even known about this complaint. That?s how truly insignificant it is.
Fox12 said:
Bioware can't view companions as just a feature if the game, they have to consider them as characters who impact the narrative. I though mass effect was excellent at this.
Yes, but they are still very much optional. Alistair was king and the whole Landsmeet part was about getting Alistair the throne, but there?s only a few select moments in the entire game where Alistair is forced into your party. Any other time, you can keep him in the camp and ignore his existence. I?ve never done this before, but Isabella is 100% optional in Dragon Age 2. If you recruit her she has an integrate part in the end of Act II, but it?s very possible to go through Dragon Age 2 without ever meeting her. I mean, in both Origins and DA2, you can almost literally kill any follower you want. If they were absolutely essential, Bioware wouldn?t give the option to kill them off, right?
So followers are entwined in the stories, but they are still very much optional in the games.
[img/]http://i.imgur.com/5LasHJF.gif[/img] [footnote/]disclaimer: the use of the word "*****" in this context is not directed at any particual poster or meant to cause offence, its just the gif was perfect![/footnote]
I shall still demand the tribute from thee, thou knave. Thou has insulted me when thou quoted me. Only through 10 jars of cookies can my rage be soothed. Thus I demand from thee that thou bring me cookies. Or I shall release the hounds.
No self respecting gay man or woman has this much energy for fighting an argument they've already won. Most of us normal, respectful, intelligent individuals have been well past the whole "gay" thing for years. I had gay friends in high school and I'm 40 years old now...so its been almost 30 years since then.
I really dislike the direction that bioware is going in.
When I was newer to rpgs I thought that companions where awesome and that rpgs should be all about them, but I really take that back. Most of companions should be made by modders who have no professional obligations/need to politically correct.
Yeah the movement towards companions began long ago and some games, such as kotor 2 and BG2 have companions and are classics, but I feel when you make a game from the ground up around companions it doesn't work well, and that seems to be the approach these days.
Its not a direction that Bioware is going in. Its the way they have been creating games for twenty years. Complaining about that is just plain idiotic. Its like complaining about the way Dice makes shooters. Its the way they have always done things and its not going to change.
Why not criticize the game for something that actually holds weight instead of the sexuality of a few characters? I mean, this thread wouldn?t exist if Dorian and Sera weren?t gay, right? And yea, during my first and second run through their sexuality never even came up. So if their sexuality wasn?t publicized so much, I wouldn?t have even known about this complaint. That?s how truly insignificant it is.
Sort of reminds me of Mass Effect. I didn't know there was a sex scene at all in Mass Effect until that idiot started whining on the news that you could...I can't remember what he claims were, but they were somewhat....exaggerated.
Even then, you had some actual inkling (There's an achievement for completing a romance), which I'm not sure exists here (Specifically for gay companions, though that'd be awesome).
Unfortunately, I've tried to engage OP multiple times on his stances and he's balked at cogent discussion, so I continue to not understand his specific objections, but the idea that it's "political correctness" or that it needs to be taken out because he doesn't personally like it (and I don't care about his sexuality) is just....Ugh.
No self respecting gay man or woman has this much energy for fighting an argument they've already won. Most of us normal, respectful, intelligent individuals have been well past the whole "gay" thing for years. I had gay friends in high school and I'm 40 years old now...so its been almost 30 years since then.
And I was recently threatened with some kind of public castration by a flamboyantly gay man at work because I didn't plate his food in the "classical" manner when I work at a modern restaurant using newer methods. Somebody really ought to tell him to do his research if he wants to be a foodie.
Yes it's optional, but so is every other romance in their games in the past and they weren't thrown in your face your first few interactions with them. It's not that they're there for me personally, it's that they make a big point of it and that's where their character stops for the most part. They're turned from strong alternative orientation characters into walking fucktoys that check a box off the list for the sake of checking a box off a list.
And even then I wouldn't have a huge problem with it except these are marketed as character-rich stories and as much as I love Origins, it lacks quite a bit of depth in their characters that aren't straight or non-sexual.
And I was recently threatened with some kind of public castration by a flamboyantly gay man at work because I didn't plate his food in the "classical" manner when I work at a modern restaurant using newer methods. Somebody really ought to tell him to do his research if he wants to be a foodie.
And I was recently threatened with some kind of public castration by a flamboyantly gay man at work because I didn't plate his food in the "classical" manner when I work at a modern restaurant using newer methods. Somebody really ought to tell him to do his research if he wants to be a foodie.
It was meant as a humorous annoyance that everyone goes through regardless of their orientation and actions. Yes it happened just as I said it did, and he was promptly ushered to the nearest exit by our host.
Long story short: People in public are assholes to strangers if they pay them any mind at all.
It was meant as a humorous annoyance that everyone goes through regardless of their orientation and actions. Yes it happened just as I said it did, and he was promptly ushered to the nearest exit by our host.
Long story short: People in public are assholes to strangers if they pay them any mind at all.
Yup. And, sometimes, it happens on the basis of someone's sexuality, if they're gay; and sometimes it's not just hyperbole, or a "humorous annoyance"; sometimes it's fucking scary. People still feel that they can't hold hands outside, or are genuinely afraid to give their partners a hug.
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