Bioware: Yes, We Are Listening.

FFHAuthor

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RJ 17 said:
Besides, what were people REALLY looking for in an ending? Something like this?
On one level, it's extremely disappointing to see every bit of fan disappointment and contention with the endings basically put into the category of 'it wasn't happy enough'.

On another more important level...yes...yes I DO want a Krogan cake in my ending cinematic.
 

Hazy

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FFHAuthor said:
Hazy said:
So wait a second, let me get this straight: you're completely fine with a company that says "Hey, discuss this game" and if it's not glowing praise, the thread is locked and the forum is shut down if this is a widespread occurrence?
Actually, it was shut down for him to make another message about the zero tolerance policy the forums had against making threats of violence against the staff.
From the image I saw, it was regarding the app that recently surfaced on the iOS store about the ending or something or other. I'll snoop around and edit this post if I can find it.
 

Hazy

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DrVornoff said:
Hazy said:
So wait a second, let me get this straight: you're completely fine with a company that says "Hey, discuss this game" and if it's not glowing praise, the thread is locked and the forum is shut down if this is a widespread occurrence?

The Nazism joke was obvious hyperbole, but if someone honestly thinks this is, in any way, a respectable way to run a message board, they are delusional.
I don't recall saying whether or not I approve of the practice. What I was pointing out is that it is in no way comparable to Nazism.
Yeah, well just for the record, it was hyperbolic. Sorry, I wish I could have made that clearer, but text only goes so far.


You can express that wishing ruin on someone. Novel idea, I know, but just roll with me on this one.

I hate to sound like a broken record, but there are companies I don't buy from anymore. I don't make a big deal about it because who the fuck cares? And beyond that, I don't actually wish pain and suffering on other human beings. I am capable of disagreeing with another harm without wishing harm and misfortune upon them. I think it's crass, classless and malicious to publicly declare, "I hope you crash and burn!"
Who is wishing any physical harm on anyone? I'm hoping their company goes under, not that they get hit by a fucking freight train. People express with their wallets, that's just how this business works. They don't give a shit about the consumer's opinion, if they did, they wouldn't be releasing terrible, buggy games complete with cut corners up the wazoo. But people will buy them, so they will keep making them. Do I expect them to go under? No, because that's unrealistic, and their sales show it. Do I wish they would die off and give rise to even better RPG developers who actually know shit about writing? Absolutely.

And frankly, I hope they take Activision with them.
 

Kahunaburger

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Hazy said:
But people will buy them, so they will keep making them. Do I expect them to go under? No, because that's unrealistic, and their sales show it. Do I wish they would die off and give rise to even better RPG developers who actually know shit about writing? Absolutely.
The beauty of it, however, is that Bioware doesn't have to lose out to make room for RPGs with good writing. They can continue to do what they do best, and when RPGs that are actually [http://www.nytimes.com/2011/06/22/arts/video-games/witcher-2-new-from-cd-projekt-red-in-poland-video-game-review.html] well [http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mX48y24t9iU]-written [http://mature-gaming.com/wp-content/uploads/news/chris-avellone.jpg] roll around, people looking for that sort of thing will buy them.
 

Hazy

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Kahunaburger said:
Hazy said:
But people will buy them, so they will keep making them. Do I expect them to go under? No, because that's unrealistic, and their sales show it. Do I wish they would die off and give rise to even better RPG developers who actually know shit about writing? Absolutely.
The beauty of it, however, is that Bioware doesn't have to lose out to make room for RPGs with good writing. They can continue to do what they do best, and when RPGs that are actually [http://www.nytimes.com/2011/06/22/arts/video-games/witcher-2-new-from-cd-projekt-red-in-poland-video-game-review.html] well [http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mX48y24t9iU]-written [http://mature-gaming.com/wp-content/uploads/news/chris-avellone.jpg] roll around, people looking for that sort of thing will buy them.
Yes, it's just a shame that these great games are often overlooked due to the high profile shit that normally clogs up the industry.
 

Triangulon

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Magnicon said:
mass disappointment
I see what you did there ;)

OT, I have just finished having managed to stay relatively spoiler-free for the last few days. I can say that generally it was a fun game, on a par with ME2. Yes the end was utter pants, however this has happened before and it will again. I am actually struggling to think of a game not made by Valve with a genuinely good ending. Oh well. Better start counting down to Guild Wars and the Secret World.
 

Tomeran

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Part of me hopes dearly that Bioware will listen. I dont think the ending was the worst I've ever seen, and the rest of the game was fantastic, but I'd never dream of calling the ending "good", and especielly not worthy of the trilogy, or the otherwise incredible game ME3 was.

My main concern about this is that the endings and the rest of ME3 shows one of the biggest and most sudden change in quality I've ever seen in a gaming encounter, and that Bioware themselves stated that one of the reasons they structured the endings in this way was to "shock a reaction" out of their fans...which immidiatly made my faith in that gaming company plummet from ze skies. I am no longer a die-hard Bioware fan boy.

Second, that is Chris Priestly, and he tends to "herd and handle" the bioware community, which is now in a massive uproar. I'd feel much more reassured if these words came from Casey Hudson.

I can however understand Bioware wanting to wait a little bit before discussing action. As Priestly said, the game hasnt been out for very long, and although what appears to be a majority(at least a vocal majority) is very displeased, it strikes me as a fair action to give more people the chance to experience the game without bioware-provided alterations and spoilers, and to give more people a chance to express their opinions on the ending on the forums.
That being said, I consider it highly unlikely that the general tone and criticism of the ending will change as more and more people will experience it.

As was stated earlier in this thread, Bioware(or at least the crew that works with the ME series) DOES have a history of listening to their fans. However this was -clearly- not the case with the ending, and the question remains if that will change. Its a hellova big question.
 

Charli

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BloatedGuppy said:
Charli said:
Only 106 pages? Christ that's like an every day topic when World of Warcraft changes one class mechanic to make it ever so slightly more inefficient.

Need Rage Moaaarrr.
Well, let's see.

Largest topic on the first several pages of the WoW general forums is the sticky on the controversial "Scroll of Resurrection", started two weeks ago, with 104 pages.

The "We're Listening" thread, started yesterday, is now at 169 pages.

The "So we can't get the ending we wanted after all?" thread is now at 1489 pages.

Please, though, don't let reality get in the way of your spurious assertions.
There's been no major changes to the live-WoW game in nigh over 4 - 5 months because of the latest patch and tight lipped-ness of the next expansion.

And what I said was more of an amused jab, but that butt clenching is good, hold onto that, and direct it at some good.

I'm sorry you're so snippy, but please, as you say, continue.
 

Ninjat_126

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RJ 17 said:
Besides, what were people REALLY looking for in an ending? Something like this?
Closure.

If further detail is required, I wouldn't mind if the Reapers killed everything and everyone, and the GOLDEN ENDING! was just "we managed to record some messages for the people of the future, maybe they'll do better than us."


Also, in response to the people complaining about the complaining:

1. Bioware was either lying when they said what the ending would be, or what's currently in the game is not the real ending.

2. They're going to make DLC, that's for certain. May as well ask them to fix the ending while they're at it.

3. We're all complaining because we think the ending was complete crap. The "demand" for DLC to fix it wouldn't be happening if there was no DLC, although there may have been a pretty big outcry for a sequel.


Also? If they charge us for the ending-fixing DLC, don't pay for it. Sure, that might sound like "entitlement", but in my opinion if they're going to promise us something they better deliver, or at the very least explain why they can't.
 

FFHAuthor

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Hazy said:
FFHAuthor said:
Hazy said:
So wait a second, let me get this straight: you're completely fine with a company that says "Hey, discuss this game" and if it's not glowing praise, the thread is locked and the forum is shut down if this is a widespread occurrence?
Actually, it was shut down for him to make another message about the zero tolerance policy the forums had against making threats of violence against the staff.
From the image I saw, it was regarding the app that recently surfaced on the iOS store about the ending or something or other. I'll snoop around and edit this post if I can find it.
Yeah, I'm not a member of Bioware Social network, but I was browsing the threads looking at the responses for some laughs, I saw the post from the head guy, he did assert that the 2.99 'final days' app or whatever it is was not from Bioware and not a response from Bioware to the endings, but he did say that locking the forums was to give him a chance to post that warning about not threatening Bioware or EA staff with violence. I saw some stuff that was skirting the edge when it came to 'creative expression' and a LOT of 'rule number 2 of these forums' forced deletions of things that people had said. What they said, I dunno. But things are very VERY hot on the Bioware forums from what I saw.
 

TsunamiWombat

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TsunamiWombat said:
http://social.bioware.com/forum/1/topic/355/index/10084349

atghunter wrote...

Posted this yesterday, I'll repost here. Hope it helps to see what's on the other side of the mirror atm.

I don't think Bioware is out of touch with their customers though I agree with an earlier poster that right now they are assessing their options. Nor do I think that everyone speaking up for them at the moment is a "yes man" or shill. That said:

I don't for a moment think there are any other endings, this was a hallucination, etc. Bioware/EA is letting these speculations go on for two reasons. First, they are letting people vent. Secondly, they are weighing options.

Years ago, I worked for a PR damage control team and everything right now is going by the book. First, re-affirm and ignore (also known as doubling down), then try and define the detractors in the mainstream with things like "this is all a big mistunderstand", etc. while remaining civil in the hopes the detractors go rabid. Meanwhile go dark and use countermeasures through third part sources to prop up your position and brand the outcry as driven by hacks, haters or a minority trying to wear out the detractors on these outlets or "shock troops" while protecting the corporate core. Next, offer something distracting (notice SWTOR is free this upcoming weekend) known as the "faux olive branch"/ask the angry people to explain their concerns (without agreeing to commit to a compromise), buy more add time (definitely going on right now), and hope it dies down. If the pressure is still on, determine the economic viability of 1) ignoring the outcry and banking on the fickle nature of consumers to get over it or 2) determining if we can make money off of fixing it.

If it is any consolation, the decision whether or not there is a fix DLC, etc, won't be made by the writers so illusions to things they wanted to convey don't matter much atm (to wit: the leads comments yesterday). I suspect he's been called in and politely told by the PR guys to not do that again. This is now a corporate problem, not an artistic struggle with fans. Somewhere in the EA bunker, attorneys, PR guys, writers and brass are sharing numbers b/c in the end this will come down to hard currency.

As one who despises the endings, I'm hoping the suits tell the visionaries that the customers are loud enough and numerous enough to swollow their pride and get them out of this storm. For those that love them, I readily accept your position and respectfully disagree.
atghunter wrote...

Greetings All,

First, I?m flattered someone would repost this. Many thanks.

A couple follow-up thoughts for those wondering what is likely going on with the other side of the mirror in the last couple days:

First, Operation Goliath, the free Star Wars online weekend, and the recent noncommittal overtures to listen arefaux olive branches. Sorry. Customers intrinsically want to believe companies they patronize listen and when they stop believing that, the company has to say they are listening and do anything to get the detractors off-message. There are a dozen names for this, but the most memorable was "The Shell Game."

You will know that there?s a genuine need for dialogue in the corporate bunker when the message turns from ?we?re listening? to ?we acknowledge we may have a disconnect with our consumers and are willing to discuss a meaningful solution to the problem.? It signals an end to non-committed deflection and opening genuine talks to solve the problem (it?s knows as ?Exposing Your Throat? btw). At present, you?ll notice Bioware/EA has only said they will ?explain? the endings. That?s not a give, that?s a delay tactic.

But here?s the part that amazes me as an old PR guy and is totally new. The disenfranchised base here is changing the old methodology. It?s akin to comparing old-style bunker PR defenses to new blitzkrieg-style consumers. To date, the ?bunker strategy? was always used because it was virtually foolproof. However, social media and the 24 hour news cycle have simply changed everything. Twenty years ago, you could not mass 30,000 protesters into a networked base without some luck, money, a GREAT cause and (most importantly) time. By the time you did get organized, folks were either burned out or lost interest. Groups like Take Back have altered the landscape and suddenly the contest is taken from the old paradigm to a crazy new (and wonderful IMO) place. Preorder sales took away customers biggest weapon in the past (i.e. don?t buy the product). Now customers who feel they have received poor value have been potentially re-empowered by the internet. Bioware/EA is feeling the full brunt of this thing while passion is hottest. They are deploying countermeasures faster than the old strategies ever would have ever suggested. To some degree, they are being outmaneuvered atm. But now it depends on how long the protest/outcry holds up.

Two more quick points and I?ll close. First, the Child?s Play movement was brilliant. Notice over the past few days how some of the most visceral detractors to the outcry have had to shift their vitriol from ?you?re spoiled selfish haters? to ?sure you gave to charity, but you are spoiled selfish haters.? Nobody is drinking that Kool-Aid. Better yet, some outlets are now saying ?maybe the game has problem but its still art? from the precedent message ?best game ever.? That won?t fly with the mainstream. If its one thing they know is that when ?art? hits the marketplace, it is a commodity, nothing more. You?ve changed the countermeasures from "unbiased" critics of the movement into drum beaters simply trying to get you angry. EA?s PR guys probably envy you (grudgingly) atm.

Second, don?t buy the only X people voted in the poll out of 1 billion customers, so they don?t care. That?s bunk. Are there "drum beaters" on both sides of this issue that just want to see controversy, sure. But if I was sitting in an office looking at that Bioware poll, I?d be reaching for a cigarette.

Finally remember, they have much more data at their disposal. They know how sales are going, how much time people are playing that are synced into Origin, etc. They will watch those numbers this weekend. If sales slow, watch for price cutting within 10 days (just over the two week US release date). It will mean that retailers are getting nervous and will slow new unit orders. As I?ve said before, this will come down to hard currency. If the protests start having an effect on that front, the response will come.

I?m an older gamer and again appreciate the repost. To everyone (on both sides) continue to let your voices be heard. You are consumers and have every right to engage in this discourse. The boards being locked yesterday proves someone is watching and knows this is an issue. I'm in the hated-ending camp to be sure, but I admire everyone one of you who is arguing for what believe on both sides!

Cheers.

Many men may be willing to die heroically for a noble cause, but few men will live humbly for one. Wilhelm Stekel
atghunter wrote...

Greetings All,

Really flattered with the responses. Respectful regards and thanks to all. Been spending a few minutes reading over Mr. Hudson?s response. Here's my PR insider perspective. Hope it helps a bit.

First, let?s simply look at strategy over content. 1) They definitely released this on a Friday evening to bury it in the news cycle (because it does acknowledge in passing there are unhappy customers, but more next paragraph). Btw, kudos to those who pointed that out earlier in the thread-Solid catch. 2) Several of the ?anti-ending? articles (most notably Forbes) are now creeping into front page searches for ?Mass Effect 3? instead of ?Mass Effect 3 endings? and they are hoping this release will knock those stories to page 2. 3) They are hoping to deflect some of the current silence anger by combining this message with this weekend?s faux olive branches (discussed earlier).

All in all, the message release strategy is nothing too interesting at this point.

The content, however, is interesting. Most of the statement is doublespeak meant to let you see whatever you want as to as to the direction this thing is heading. Mr. Hudson then clearly tries to give validity to the greatness of the game by citing a couple news sources in the hopes of getting those stories more hits and onto search page one (nicely played EA PR), but the main thing is a clear acknowledgement that Houston has a problem with ?some? fans. Mind you, he uses the term ?some? and ?most passionate fans? to try and minimalize the level of the outcry, but the disenfranchised fan base has reached the level of acknowledgement. That is important. Does it mean those disenfranchised fans have won? Not by a long shot. But Mr. Hudson?s statement was written (or at least approved by someone running damage control). And ultimately any time you have to acknowledge a problem with your product or customers, you have issues.

Does he continue on holding his own line that they intended ?bittersweet? endings? Yes. Is the comment that you?ll see more of Commander Shepard an illusion to an ?ending? DLC? Not certain but probably not at the moment. Does he utilize the ?we?re listening to feedback but not promising we?ll do anything? line used on the boards yesterday? Sure.

It is clear most of his statement is insubstantial and leaves tons of room for spin either way down the road. Whether it gets used or not, management is trying to find some wiggle room in case they have to change course.

Last bit. A warning. PR guys know that right now many people?s emotions are on edge and often use a tactic called ?Sound and Fury? (Shakespearean reference see Macbeth) to see if it gets people raging. It helps that strategy that people are looking at anything coming out of Bioware to detect wind changes. That said, I was reading through the thread burning with Mr. Hudson?s statement (though to be fair it is a Bioware/EA statement) and it seems for the most part folks are being passionate, but civil. EA PR will probably chalk up that aspect of this release as a failedruse de guerre (trick of war).

Stay civil, stay passionate, and stay vocal no matter which side you take. For myself, I?ll shamelessly

Hold the Line
 

CrazyBlaze

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Zeel said:
Man. if only people bitched this hard about day one DLC's. We'd be getting free games by now.
We understand that you don't like Mass Effect 3. The things you say are deliberately said in such a way that anyone that liked the game is pissed off and then when they proceed to reply back you call them a fanboy. We get that you don't like the game and you are entitled to your opinion but can you please just leave people who liked the game and wish to discuss it alone. Why don't you go find a topic or make a topic about a game that you like and leave the rest of us alone. Please and thank you
 

TakeyB0y2

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Sigh... I just finished Arrival in my replay of ME2 and have completed everything I want done... ME3 has been sitting on my desk for a week now, and now I'm ready to play it, but... I dunno, part of me is scared to.

If BioWare is planning to make a change in the ending, maybe it would be better if I waited until they did that first instead of setting myself up for disappointment.
 

Pumpkin_Eater

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DustyDrB said:
I don't know why you're bringing KotOR into this. People had a problem with the fact that in the first game, aiming at an enemy doesn't mean you'll definitely hit them. There were dice rolls involved in your chance to hit in addition to where you were aiming. You improved your accuracy by leveling up your specific weapon skill. But even then, a hit wasn't a guarantee.
I'll drop the other points for now, but this is factually incorrect. The accuracy stat reduced kickback, as did stopping momentarily. Weapons still do this in ME 2 and 3. I brought up KOTOR because it was a Bioware game that used a system like the one you were describing.
 

Hazy

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DrVornoff said:
Hazy said:
Who is wishing any physical harm on anyone? I'm hoping their company goes under, not that they get hit by a fucking freight train. People express with their wallets, that's just how this business works. They don't give a shit about the consumer's opinion, if they did, they wouldn't be releasing terrible, buggy games complete with cut corners up the wazoo. But people will buy them, so they will keep making them. Do I expect them to go under? No, because that's unrealistic, and their sales show it. Do I wish they would die off and give rise to even better RPG developers who actually know shit about writing? Absolutely.

And frankly, I hope they take Activision with them.
By wanting the company to crash and burn, you are wishing ill upon them.
Yes, I am wishing ill upon the company. That's kind of how this works - we stop giving money to them, they go under. Unrealistic, but there is the basic outline.
Which is easy to do when you forgot that the company employs actual people.
You make it sound like these people will be out living on the streets. Believe me, I feel for Jimmy C. the intern trying to work his way into the gaming industry, but that doesn't mean I should think a company should flourish when it, by all means, should not.

You can stop buying from someone and do it with a modicum of class, that's all I'm saying.
I have stated, in numerous threads, why I think Bioware is the model for everything that is wrong with the industry these days. I don't buy their shitty games, and as a huge fan of Bauldur's Gate I and II, that sounds incredibly shocking to hear coming from my own lips.

In short, if Bioware stopped treating gamers like cattle, bucked up, and delivered some quality, complete games with a fair amount of polish to it, I would have no problem. Believe me, I would love to see the next CD Projekt Red of the West. But lying to the consumers is not the way to go about it. And assuming this business practice they've developed of late continues to charge ahead in full force, then excuse me, but I would not be saddened if the company were to fall to it's knees, like I honestly think it deserves.
 

OniaPL

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People should rage at Bioware, rather than at the fans, if they think this "change ending" campaign is stupid.