Bioware: Yes, We Are Listening.

[Emiscary]

Dignity and humility are being demonstrated on the part of the fanbase (with a few notable exceptions). What's got everyone so pissed is the industry's total refusal to admit any fault of any kind. They've being making disingenuous statements about the nature of what we were buying for months and they've done themselves no favors by pulling crap like the Day 1 DLC fiasco or botching Dragon Age 2. And yet they seem to think they should be uncorking the champagne right now and that its about time we piped up and moved on.

Case and point: Operation Goliath. Personally when I saw that announcement on the ME3 homepage I started uninstalling my games and preparing to scrap my disks, but that's just me.

 

[BloatedGuppy]

That's not my argument though. I'm a creative person myself in addition to being a nerd. And while the internet has permanently changed the fan-creator dynamic, I still believe in mutual respect a line should be drawn. The fans are not the creators. They are free to express themselves, but making demands is something else entirely. It only fosters more ill will.

I can elaborate on this if you want, but I'm hoping that this is enough to make it clear that I'm not telling people to shut up and stop expressing themselves. I'm telling them to do it with dignity, respect, humility and eloquence.

Clearly not everyone is expressing themselves with class, but I'd honestly argue that, as "fan uprisings" go, this one has been surprisingly civil. The average discussion thread on The Escapist is more awash with toxicity and name calling then the 1500 page ending thread on Bioware's forum. Most fans are very complimentary of the game, regardless of their feelings about the ending.

I agree that "making demands" is unfortunate, but I do honestly believe that Bioware dropped the ball with their fanbase. Even if you put aside Star Child, if you put aside the tonal/thematic shift, if you put aside all the ARTISTIC reasons the ending can be questioned, you still have dead crewmates stepping off a crashed Normandy, you still have an epilogue splash screen that's virtually a 1:1 rip of a Windows Screen Saver, and that's not even getting into the Tali thing. You still have Casey Hudson's assertion there wouldn't be any A,B,C laziness with the ending, followed by them serving us Red/Blue/Green instead. Even their most ardent defender has to be able to admit that was disingenuous at best, and downright insulting at worst.

There's a whiff of laziness, and corner cutting, around arguably the most essential element of the narrative...the ending. So while I agree that there needs to be respect and civility in the fan/creator dynamic, it can't always be a case of the fans giving the creators respect, and the creators giving the fans a backhand slap using IGN and Gamespot as their mouthpiece. This is, to some extent, a quid pro quo relationship. They wouldn't be giving us a treat for behaving like good children if they fixed their ending. They'd be repairing their relationship with a fractured fanbase that has been getting progressively more irate over the past few years, and not without cause.

 

[80Maxwell08]

How does that change the fact that they're still demanding a retcon?

It doesn't change that at all but that wasn't the point. The person I was responding to said people wanted Bioware to change it to the ending that they wanted which I have heard no one say. Every person I heard wanting the ending changed wanted it changed because they all agreed it was terrible. Also this has happened with Fallout 3 and I didn't hear everyone screaming entitled around then.

 

[T3hSource]

Mmm healthy debates and rants like this can only happen on the Escapist forums.That's the reason why I've been occasionally visiting the forums for like a year now before registering.
Anyway,I can make guesses till tomorrow: "Did they really intend to have such an ending?" "Did they run out of time?" "Is this just PR talk?" etc.
We shall see,I pretty much share Justin's concerns and doubts which he expressed in the ME3 podcat today.

 

[SnakeoilSage]

What's the point of having your Shepard influence events over three games and five years if the ending you're fighting for, the one you're visualizing as you help your crew and the worlds you visit, doesn't exist? It's like you sign up for a marathon, you train for months to get ready, and on the big day you push yourself through grueling hours of running that strain your body to its limits and just before you reach the finish line you get hit by a car. The sudden, tragic, anti-climax of it all is everything you could expect it to be: a pointless act that resulted in an unwanted end and unfulfilled hopes beyond your control.

So yeah, just sit there and tell me how all these years deciding the outcome of Mass Effect, the CORE ASPECT of the games, has no relevance on how it ends. Because the irony is so thick I can spread it on a bagel.

 

[Merrick_HLC]

3-People need to stop comparing games to other mediums.
Yes if people dislike the ending of a movie, or a TV show, or a Book people just shut up and move on.

What makes games different in that regard? What about them makes it okay to scream like a 7-year-old on amphetamines and demand that your disappointment with a product be retconned out of existence?

But here's another question. If Bioware does release DLC that retcons the ending, would that be their decision, or would the fans take credit for it and then demand more the next time around regardless of whether or not their complaints are legitimate?

First of all the whole "scream like a 7 year old" and such is your opinion of the argument, not necessarily a reality.

But the difference IS the existence of DLC and such.

We ALL know and can agree that the ending of Mass Effect 3 isn't the ending of Bioware releasing content for ME3 right?
There will be additional missions released.

This is why the "movies/books" comparison is inherently invalid.

A movie ends, the creators don't go "Come to the theater next month for this extra 15 minutes of footage"

A book ends the author doesn't go "The story will be continued/expanded in this short story you can purchase in 3 months"

The end of ME3 is NOT the end of in the meaning "We are completely done with telling the story of Shepard and his crew".

If DLC didn't exist, we wouldn't be having this convo. People would "Just shut up and move on"
The reason they go "Release an add-on to fix this" is because they know that add-ons will be made.

(Note: I'm NOT one of those demanding a change, I'm also not bashing DLC as a concept. But you can't just pretend games are the same storytelling wise as movies and books in'the end is the end, shut up and deal with it' when it's VERY easy for a piece of DLC to extend or alter the content of the game)

As to the hypothetical of fans taking credit for it or not? I can't really answer, don't know and TBH don't really care.
Honestly if Bioware planned it then either A-The DLC will be free, meaning they shipped an incomplete game and tons of players are stuck without knowing the real official ending because they don't use the internet on their consoles.
OR
B-It'll be paid, meaning Bioware intentionally did a ending they knew folks would hate so they'd have to buy the DLC to 'fix' it. Neither one is a good thing for the company IMO.

 

[boag]

What's the point of having your Shepard influence events over three games and five years if the ending you're fighting for, the one you're visualizing as you help your crew and the worlds you visit, doesn't exist? It's like you sign up for a marathon, you train for months to get ready, and on the big day you push yourself through grueling hours of running that strain your body to its limits and just before you reach the finish line you get hit by a car. The sudden, tragic, anti-climax of it all is everything you could expect it to be: a pointless act that resulted in an unwanted end and unfulfilled hopes beyond your control.

So yeah, just sit there and tell me how all these years deciding the outcome of Mass Effect, the CORE ASPECT of the games, has no relevance on how it ends. Because the irony is so thick I can spread it on a bagel.

that analogy is bit severe.

i would replace it with "just before finishing the marathon you get to the finish and there is nothing there, no officials, no one waiting for you, no finish line."

 

[Magnicon]

Yet there has been mass disappointment about the game in general outside of this site, not just the ending or DLC.

Ehhh...no. Almost everything I hear is "It was outstanding until the last 10 minutes".

Ehhh...yes. I follow every major gaming website, and before the ending complaint explosion, there was in fact mass disappointment with Mass Effect 3's game quality in general. This of course is excluding official reviewers, because they have been a joke for years and the game was going to get 9-10's no matter what.

 

[Charli]

So far the "we're listening" thread is at 106 pages with zero response from anyone at Bioware.

It's kind of like telling your girlfriend you're listening and then slipping out of the apartment and going to the bar.

Only 106 pages? Christ that's like an every day topic when World of Warcraft changes one class mechanic to make it ever so slightly more inefficient.
Need Rage Moaaarrr.

 

[Sylveria]

While browsing BSN and looking for nerd rage entertainment, I found this statement by Chris Priestly.

We appreciate everyone?s feedback about Mass Effect 3 and want you to know that we are listening. Active discussions about the ending are more than welcome here, and the team will be reviewing it for feedback and responding when we can. Please note, we want to give people time to experience the game so while we can?t get into specifics right now, we will be able to address some of your questions once more people have had time to complete the game. In the meantime, we?d like to ask that you keep the non-spoiler areas of our forums and our social media channels spoiler free.

We understand there is a lot of debate on the Mass Effect 3 ending and we will be more than happy to engage in healthy discussions once more people get to experience the game. We are listening to all of your feedback.

In the meantime, let's give appreciation to Commander Shepard. Whether you loved the ME3 ending or didn't or you just have a lot of questions, he/she has given many of us some of the best adventures we have had while playing games. What was your favorite moment?

He explains that the reason they have not responded is because they want to give more people time to play through to the end so as to not spoil people who have been avoiding the leaks and endings so far.

Now, I have no opinion on the matter, and it remains to be seen if Bioware will keep their word. However, a Q/A session with the users themselves is better for getting points across than by commenting second hand to article sources.

Thoughts? Will Bioware resolve some of their gamers' questions?

Link [http://social.bioware.com/forum/1/topic/355/index/9992961]

Nice PR statement, too bad it's entirely bullshit. They've already said they wanted the ending to be "divisive" and the company's contempt for their fan base is a matter of public record at this point.

Though, they must love all this free R&D. It'll help them craft that "fan friendly" ending they're gonna sell you as DLC next month.

 

[omega 616]

As somebody who's worked for the industry before, I have to say, this whole thing is depressing. Yes, it's good for a dev to listen to customers, but they (devs in general) have so little control that seeing a fanbase get so bitchy and self-entitled that a dev is actually starting to cave and act like they need to apologise for the story they wrote is just heartbreaking. If you read a book and don't like the way it ended, you don't rip out the last few pages and send the author hate-mail until they re-write the ending for you. Gah, this whole fiasco is reminding me why I refuse to be called a "gamer". I don't have near the massive amounts of self-entitlement and nerdrage to feel at home with the community.

UH OH! YOU USED THE S-E WORD!


Someone posted this in another thread and it was relatively enlightening. Go to the 10:30 minute mark and watch that. It's brutal, but very true.

Or don't, but never use the word "Self-entitlement" again.

Edit: or would it be "words"

Hey I get to correct somebody again, TB in his last few mail vids has been flopping round like magicarp.

He says all this stuff but in another vid (or maybe the same one) he is talking about kick starter and saying "even though you're buying into the game early you get no say over what happens with the game, all you are entitled to is what you have been promised at your price point".

TB also acts like his opinion of IGN is going to make the people over there have a sleepless night, at this point IGN are about as sorry as activision are that he never bought MW2....

You are entitled to what you pay for, nothing more.

I wasn't particularly fond of the fact Harry potter broke the super awesome wand, I didn't spam J.K Rowling with mail telling her to change that! I have no entitlement to either.

 

[Varrdy]

Joking aside, I understand the anxiety for closure, but we serve ourselves best in this situation by being patient and trying to get a bit of emotional slack. Bioware have made their move, so now we need to let cooler heads prevail and make ours with dignity and intelligence.

Trust me, take some time to do something completely unrelated to games to clear your mind and come back with a cool head. You'll feel a lot better and you'll be able to articulate yourself far more effectively.

I'm trying my best to calm things down without diluting the issues that people have with the endings. Passion is fine; demanding is not. Hell it might be pathetic but we need to beg, plead and grovel for a conclusive ending (but only if we earned it through our choices) but saying folk should get fired over this will win us no points at all, people!

Yes it was a poke in the eye of all of us who put the time in to do it right and there is nothing anyone can say that will make me believe that I am some kind of ungrateful bastard who might as well have rocked up to Earth in a Jeep and waving a beer bottle for all the difference it makes!

 

[BloatedGuppy]

Only 106 pages? Christ that's like an every day topic when World of Warcraft changes one class mechanic to make it ever so slightly more inefficient.

Need Rage Moaaarrr.

Well, let's see.

Largest topic on the first several pages of the WoW general forums is the sticky on the controversial "Scroll of Resurrection", started two weeks ago, with 104 pages.

The "We're Listening" thread, started yesterday, is now at 169 pages.

The "So we can't get the ending we wanted after all?" thread is now at 1489 pages.

Please, though, don't let reality get in the way of your spurious assertions.

 

[Hazy]

Here's the thing about Bioware: they say one thing, and they do another.

They say there is no on-disc DLC for Mass Effect 3, but they plop it in there anyway.
They say we're welcome to voice our opinions, but if it's anything less than stellar praise, Stanley Woo or Chris Priestly come on into the thread and lock it down toting that whole "End of Line" or "Trolling not allowed" spheal.

Which is, unsurprisingly, what Priestly just recently did to the entire Bioware forum - lock it down like Nazi Germany High School on Spring Break.

I can't wait until this company keels over and dies.

 

[Merrick_HLC]

First of all the whole "scream like a 7 year old" and such is your opinion of the argument, not necessarily a reality.

You don't think there are people who acting inappropriately?

A movie ends, the creators don't go "Come to the theater next month for this extra 15 minutes of footage"

I could see an argument for special edition DVDs, directors cuts, and DVD bonus features forming a rough analog.

A book ends the author doesn't go "The story will be continued/expanded in this short story you can purchase in 3 months"

Technically, they sometimes do that. The most egregious example I can think of was when the Twilight authoress produced a spin-off novella about a one-shot character as a bit of a promo for the third movie.

It doesn't happen very often, though it frequently does have a certain air of cynicism to it.

If DLC didn't exist, we wouldn't be having this convo. People would "Just shut up and move on"

I'm a little skeptical of that. Nerds as a demographic are notoriously difficult to please.

Honestly if Bioware planned it then either A-The DLC will be free, meaning they shipped an incomplete game and tons of players are stuck without knowing the real official ending because they don't use the internet on their consoles.
OR
B-It'll be paid, meaning Bioware intentionally did a ending they knew folks would hate so they'd have to buy the DLC to 'fix' it. Neither one is a good thing for the company IMO.

Then the only rational thing to do is wait and see. Complaining at this point is unlikely to change whatever plans are already in development. By all means, express yourself. Just don't imagine that starting petitions on the internet is going to have any appreciable effect.

1-Oh I'll admit some folks are acting inappropriately, BUT one can't, or rather, shouldn't bash any group by it's worst offenders.
Even the most rational and best of beliefs have a few advocates who could be aptly described as acting like 7 year olds on amphetamines.

2- (Movies comparison) A rough analog perhaps, but not a true one really.
Some movies get those extra releases, but most don't, and most aren't released almost instantaneously after the movie.

3- (DLC) I think we can safely say if not for DLC this wouldn't exist because, well, it's never happened before that I can remember.

I know lots were disappointed with how KOTOR2 ended (and I acknowledge that was due to being rushed out) but there wasn't a HUGE backlash to change things...because there was no method to that in game. Now there is.


4-I'd argue the petitions and all are less about 'changing things' than showing dissatisfaction.
If one merely 'sits down and shuts up' then no one knows they are dissatisfied and things continue as is.
Voicing your displeasure is more likely to result in what you see a positive change than just staying silent and having them wonder why their next title or whatever sold less.

One cannot fix a problem one does not know exists.

 

[Savagezion]

It's not so much that "they failed to deliver" as much as they actively decided to do everything they said they wouldn't do.

Isn't "actively deciding to do everything you said you wouldn't do" failing to deliver? It's usually better known as lying. Especially in this case where you "already did everything you are claiming you didn't do."

However, in this case it is actually more accurate that they "actively said they did do things, that they didn't." Remember those statements were made in post production. They already knew what the ending in the game was when they stated that. The game hit shelves 2 months after those statements.

 

[RJ 17]

I didn't say "whiny" even once. And you even put quotes there. I said boring, which Kaiden was. Jacob was too, but I liked him for some reason. I said Vega was douchey. That's a character trait. I can dislike a guy without thinking he's a bad character.

No joke, just last night I was in a party playing ME 3 with a friend who was playing it as well, we were discussing our favorite squad formations and he asked if I liked to use Vega. My exact words "Yeah he's a tough warhorse but ehhhhhhhh....really, I gotta say he seems pretty douchey if you ask me."

As somebody who's worked for the industry before, I have to say, this whole thing is depressing. Yes, it's good for a dev to listen to customers, but they (devs in general) have so little control that seeing a fanbase get so bitchy and self-entitled that a dev is actually starting to cave and act like they need to apologise for the story they wrote is just heartbreaking. If you read a book and don't like the way it ended, you don't rip out the last few pages and send the author hate-mail until they re-write the ending for you. Gah, this whole fiasco is reminding me why I refuse to be called a "gamer". I don't have near the massive amounts of self-entitlement and nerdrage to feel at home with the community.

Welcome to the Interwebz, if you've got fingers and a keyboard that clearly gives you the right to be as bitchy/self-entitled/jackassian as you like.

But seriously, I agree fully with you. Evidently, though, there was a whole bunch of stuff that was cut for the ending. I'm not asking for Bioware to make gaming history by caving in and completely making a new ending, but I wouldn't mind them releasing a "Director's Cut" edition that had everything they chopped out of the ending.

Besides, what were people REALLY looking for in an ending? Something like this?