Black Thor Actor Talks About Racist Comic Book Fans
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It's hard to argue the point about accuracy in something that is really about alien viking gods in space, but I don't think you have to hate black people to find the idea of a Norse god being black strange. While it makes as much sense as anything else in the Marvel version of the myth, one can't help but see it as a deliberate action because of the normal expectations involved when contemplating Norse mythology, in space or not. Whether the intention is to promote diversity, to make some sort of commentary on Norse mythology, or to simply cause controversy and thus get free publicity (the most likely scenario in my opinion), is anyone's guess.Versago said:
While I don't agree with conservatives on most things, I think you do have to acknowledge that Hollywood does have a very liberal bent, so it isn't impossible that said political views have something to do with it. It's obviously not a conspiracy though: it's just writers, producers and directors allowing their value system to influence their decisions, which is something common to all human beings. Calling it an 'agenda' as if it was all part of some organized scheme to change the world is just paranoid and downright silly.
But on the other hand, while racism used to be defined as having an irrational hatred for people of other races, now the definition seems to have extended to even just holding an opinion about some racially charged issue while also being white. The whole thing about white privilege essentially insinuates that all white people are culpable in racism or racist practices simply by being white and living in a society in which the majority (or largest minority) of people are white. To think that it's some sort of special evil particular to white people that one is privileged by being a member of the majority is incredibly naive. I suggest such a person take a trip to Japan. They're nice to tourists, but being white there is essentially like being a wandering dog. The sins of the father, eh? At least it makes a great way of instantly discrediting anyone who disagrees with you, much like calling someone a communist in the 1950's.
Can we stop saying that this has anything to do with race? The biggest problem for me is that they are not being consistent. The rest of the pantheon is completely white, so Heimdall doesnt come off as simply an equal character that happens to be black: he becomes "token black guy" automatically.
Also, using the whole "they are aliens, of course one of them could be black" is kinda weak. Sure, i know by this line of reasoning they probably shouldnt be humanoid at all, but again, when just ONE SINGEL GUY of an entire race is black and the rest is 100% white, and they are not even from bloody earth, how does it make any sense that they would have the same ethnicities?
Also, from the perspective of a scandinavian, seeing our old mythology being use like this doesn?t really hurt at all, in fact we just think its awesome since its a dead religion, we can stand back and just appreciate it as stories and a sort of psychological study of our ancestors. AND STILL, seeing Heimdal as black is just really weird. Its the same as making a movie about the African myths of creation, cept suddenly there?s this white dude just hanging around in the background.
If a character is black, fine. If a character is made black because you suddenly realised everyone was white, then *sigh*, that?s just stagnant. Is anyone actually offended if a movie doesn?t have a black person? Do people really think a mere coincidence is a deliberate racist attack? Isn?t that sort of racist in itself? Racism ceases to exist the day no one even thinks about skin colour as a problem, but it has to go both ways.
Also, using the whole "they are aliens, of course one of them could be black" is kinda weak. Sure, i know by this line of reasoning they probably shouldnt be humanoid at all, but again, when just ONE SINGEL GUY of an entire race is black and the rest is 100% white, and they are not even from bloody earth, how does it make any sense that they would have the same ethnicities?
Also, from the perspective of a scandinavian, seeing our old mythology being use like this doesn?t really hurt at all, in fact we just think its awesome since its a dead religion, we can stand back and just appreciate it as stories and a sort of psychological study of our ancestors. AND STILL, seeing Heimdal as black is just really weird. Its the same as making a movie about the African myths of creation, cept suddenly there?s this white dude just hanging around in the background.
Dude, Norse mythology is full of the gods making complete fools out of themselves (Thor dresses up as his wife once to steal back his hammer from the Jotner (think trolls)), and people loved that stuff. Its not about being pissed that the gods arent portrayed as complete badasses all the time (Wait, doesn?t this movie more or less DO THAT?), its about just being so goddamned tired of hollywood having to force a token black guy in places where it isn?t needed (read: everywhere).Versago said:
If a character is black, fine. If a character is made black because you suddenly realised everyone was white, then *sigh*, that?s just stagnant. Is anyone actually offended if a movie doesn?t have a black person? Do people really think a mere coincidence is a deliberate racist attack? Isn?t that sort of racist in itself? Racism ceases to exist the day no one even thinks about skin colour as a problem, but it has to go both ways.
I find it much more outraging that they claim that the home of the icegiants is Jotunheim, while everyone with at least minimal education should know its niflheim
Haven't seen the film yet, intending to see it this weekend, but if he plays the part well, what does it matter? Actually, I thought Heimdall was black anyway until I was reminded they're all Norse as part of the Norse god thing, so I don't know why I thought that to begin with. But, as you can probably tell, it really doesn't bother me.
Oh sod off, Hollywood.
Putting a token black guy in an unusually inappropriate role isn't progressive, it's just a very PC form of trolling and drumming up controversy as advertising.
You wouldn't cast a white guy as a Voodoo Loa, so fuck off. *
*Though if I do, I will admit to being wrong and think even less of "you"
Putting a token black guy in an unusually inappropriate role isn't progressive, it's just a very PC form of trolling and drumming up controversy as advertising.
You wouldn't cast a white guy as a Voodoo Loa, so fuck off. *
*Though if I do, I will admit to being wrong and think even less of "you"
I think it's the fact that he's so OUT OF PLACE. What his casting screams to me is, "Wow, we have a bunch of white guys for Norse gods, let's just put a black guy in so we don't come across as 'White Power.'"
Most intelligent people don't care about the canon, or Norse mythology, it's that it is so obviously casting a token black actor.
Most intelligent people don't care about the canon, or Norse mythology, it's that it is so obviously casting a token black actor.
Really I don't see the issue at all, they aren't even gods in this canon (at least not in the same sense as in the main canon), they're aliens be glad any of them are white at all!
You're right, Heracles would've been the more accurate form to use. I tend to just default to the more commonly accepted spelling.ReiverCorrupter said:
I just come from a different school of thought when it comes to depictions of "gods." As their, oft times, imagined in the likeness of their believers, their "true" form is never known - so it's hardly a stretch for one depiction to differ from another. Jesus used to be viewed only as straight-up Aryan, after all. And Heimdall has had stories where he's altered his physical appearance to move about Midgard, so it's not out of the realm of possibility that he decided he wanted to be a dashing black guy for a bit.
The sad reality, for you, is that while you're stance is a justified one of accuracy...there's a good number of none too subtle racists rallying behind your cause, and effectively tainting it. You're obviously a purists on all grounds of mythology, so I can respect you dissatisfaction with the casting on those grounds. I may not agree, but I understand.
One of the Warriors Three is Asian. Funny how there isn't any fuss made over that casting.Themsen said:
That's a terribly naive approach. Racism doesn't exist in a vacuum. Firstly, the director comes from the world of stage where casting is based off talent, not appearance, so this isn't an odd move for him. He did it before with Denzel Washington, and he'll do it again in another movie down the line. So his was hardly a case of "We need a minority!"Themsen said:
As for people being offended. Well, yes. People, especially people of colour, are fed up with having to be told that they can't carry movies as leads; that Asians, Blacks, Native Americas, etc. can't be heroes. The number of quality roles for minorities in Hollywood is pretty pitiful, so it's not as if those aspiring actors have the same shot at stardom as Shia LeBeouf.
And, no, it doesn't have to go both ways. That implies there's an equality of disservice being done on both sides. Sorry, but whites have a very clear advantage in Western society, so PoC don't have to make concessions to them in the name of fairness.
Wait, isn't Nifelheim the land of mist, i.e the land of the dead?Fetzenfisch said:
Hel ruling the whole shindig and whatnot?
I'm working on my adolescent memories and understanding of the mythology, so I might be wrong.
This whole thing makes me wonder how folks are going to reconcile the backlast to the last airbender having a bunch of white people in it.Asuka Soryu said:
It would appear it is only a major problem when white actors take the place of non-white actors and not the other way around.
(Personally I don't care either way, he sounds like a good guy and I bet he did great. I'm more interested in the who than the what).
Well luckily you didn't come off sounding like a closed minded bigot yourself.Versago said:
Otherwise that would have been a hilarious post.
I thought he was freakin' amazing. The guy that pissed me off was the over-Japanese norse god. And what really really pisses me off is Samuel L Jackson as Nick Fury. Nick's known for being a professional, not a stereotypical black guy badass which is all that Samuel L Jackson ever acts.Logan Westbrook said:Black Thor Actor Talks About Racist Comic Book Fans
Magic and monsters are fine, but a black guy playing a Norse god? That's taking things too far.
Idris Elba, who plays Heimdall in Marvel's Thor movie, has spoken about the backlash caused by the casting of a black actor as a Norse god. Elba's casting has infuriated a number of groups who feel it is insulting to have a person of color playing a figure often referred to as the "Whitest of the Gods."
Elba indicated that complaints about his casting came in two types: There were the purist comic books fans who were upset about the changes made to the canon - Heimdall [http://marvel.com/universe/Heimdall] is depicted as white in the comics - and then there were others whose complaints were solely motivated by race. He was reluctant to speak about it too much though, as he didn't want to fuel the issue. Ultimately, he said, if people didn't like the casting decisions, they should just stay at home and not see the movie.
Sadly, the fan backlash against Elba's casting is not a new phenomenon - Penny Arcade tackled it in a comic [http://www.penny-arcade.com/comic/2010/12/20/] late last year - and it isn't the first time that Elba has talked about it. Just over a year ago, he said that Thor had so many fantastical elements that he was amazed that anyone would pay attention to the color of his skin. He acknowledged that he didn't really look like the traditional image of a Scandinavian, but said that in future there would be more diversity in Hollywood casting. "I was cast in Thor and I'm cast as a Nordic god," he said. "If you know anything about the Nords, they don't look like me but there you go. I think that's a sign of the times for the future. I think we will see multi-level casting. I think we will see that, and I think that's good."
Unfortunately, that's not an opinion shared by his detractors. Some [http://boycott-thor.com/] of the Elba's staunchest - although ostensibly not racially motivated - opponents accuse Marvel of left-wing social engineering, noting that it attacked the Tea Party movement in a recent issue of Captain America, and that Stan Lee is known to support left-wing politicians. Other [http://www.stormfront.org/forum/t703651/] complainants, who are more directly racist, talk about the "filthy culture of judaism [sic]" and how Elba's casting is an attack on "White Culture." While the latter accusation is both disgusting and ridiculous, the former - that the left wing is using the media, and especially Hollywood, as a vehicle for propaganda - is not new. It was also leveled at DC Comics following the news [http://www.escapistmagazine.com/news/view/109659-Superman-Quits-America-Fox-News-Readers-Take-the-News-Badly] that Superman was going to renounce his US citizenship.
Although Elba doesn't look like a typical viking, it's not as if he's playing a historical figure, and it's hardly the only liberty that Marvel has taken with the Norse pantheon. As insults go, saying that the Norse gods were actually aliens with some really advanced technology - which is actually true in the Marvel canon - would seem to be much worse than casting a black actor as Heimdall, but strangely, no one seems to be bothered about that fact. All joking aside though, race in the media is a delicate and difficult subject, whether you're talking about the accusations of "whitewashing [http://www.escapistmagazine.com/news/view/91423-Avatar-Protest-Shut-Down-By-Viacom-Copyright-Claim]" in The Last Airbender movie - which is the casting of white actors as characters of color - or the accusations of racism [http://www.escapistmagazine.com/news/view/89242-Resident-Evil-5-Coverage-Reignites-Racism-Debate] in Resident Evil 5. It's an issue that people need to keep talking about though, because like any serious issue, it's not going to go away if we just ignore it.
Source: Hero Complex [http://herocomplex.latimes.com/2011/05/02/thor-star-idris-elba-on-fan-racism-and-ghost-rider-sequel-but-not-prometheus/]
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But meh.
I don't really care that they took a black actor for Heimdall, but it is an odd choice and it makes you wonder just how straightforward the decision was.
It was pretty obvious it would create controversy... so did they go for that?
There's also the whole stink of 'policital correctness' here - the Norse Gods have their token black guy.
It is very likely that he got the role simply because he was the best man for the job - but they'll always be a bit of a reasonable doubt that this was done as kind of publicity stunt and/or PC issue - even if (as critics seem to be saying) he really owned the role.
It was pretty obvious it would create controversy... so did they go for that?
There's also the whole stink of 'policital correctness' here - the Norse Gods have their token black guy.
It is very likely that he got the role simply because he was the best man for the job - but they'll always be a bit of a reasonable doubt that this was done as kind of publicity stunt and/or PC issue - even if (as critics seem to be saying) he really owned the role.
In all likeliness, the Aesir would have all been grey anyway, so i don't get why people are complaining.
Well, I think you confused my argument with other people. Remember, I wasn't so much complaining about the black Heimdall as the Aesir being galactic peacekeepers, which just stands in such absolute tension with the tradition. I think that once you've made it so that they're aliens it's hard to argue why one of the gods can't be black, hell, they could be gray little men like in Stargate. That being said, I think to only make one character black in a source material where everyone is traditionally perceived to be white could very well be deliberately provocative on the part of the people in charge, and probably not just an unconscious decision. Make of that what you will.Technicka said:
Meh. There's almost always an idiot on your side in most debates, no matter which side you take. Anyone who only points out the fanatics as the representatives of the other side is committing a straw man fallacy, and anyone who uses the presence of these people to generalize the supporters of the cause as 'racists', 'communists' or what-have-you is not only overgeneralizing and committing an argument ad hominem. At the end of the day, you either decide an issue through rational argumentation, or you haven't decided anything.Technicka said:
True, but that's only convincing if fairness is the only thing at issue. As we've discussed, I'd place accuracy up there too. But since accuracy doesn't really apply here, I would point out that only having one black guy in the cast is very strange. If you're going to be multiracial, you should actually be multiracial. Just adding one black character seems suspect.Technicka said:
Not totally wrong. but its still home of the icegiants. ice=death think in terms of time and its understandable.Get lost one night in winter you are dead. Jötunheim ( i hope this side supports umlaute) is home of giants yes. But the icegiants where part of niflheim.LiquidGrape said:
Well, it isn't because we're racist.
It's because the Norse gods were all white.
(Ya dumb prick)
Since most of the vikings lived in the northern parts of Europe then they didn't see alot of black folk, so they thought that the gods were just more badass versions of them selves (hence the reason why the Aesir are not immortal).
So it's rather silly that a black guy was playing a Norse god, not because I'm a racist, but because I like it when people actually follow the story and follow mythology.
This would be like taking Anubis and putting him in a clown costume.
It's because the Norse gods were all white.
(Ya dumb prick)
Since most of the vikings lived in the northern parts of Europe then they didn't see alot of black folk, so they thought that the gods were just more badass versions of them selves (hence the reason why the Aesir are not immortal).
So it's rather silly that a black guy was playing a Norse god, not because I'm a racist, but because I like it when people actually follow the story and follow mythology.
This would be like taking Anubis and putting him in a clown costume.
you are talking about stargate ?The Stonker said:
Yeah i totally would agree with you. But its (like i said before) not a movie about norse mythology, its a marvel superhero movie. So its ok. Its not about the actual gods, its about comic book characters in tights. Asian mmos are raping norse myths for years, without loud cries of terror. marvel still does a decent job at it. ('xcept the tights).