Blaming the victim

[chowderface]

Oh how very 'black and white'.

A person who would rape is probably a bad person anyway.
The last thing they need is to be provoked.
If you covored yourself in bacon, then got mauled by an animal, then alot of the blame does rest with you.

Sure, yeah, prancing around in front of a bear wearing a bacon onesie is not going to be the smartest idea, no, but the key point is that bears are animals, and we are not.

No, you know what? Let's roll with this.

So "bad people" are now just a type of animal. They can't be held responsible for their actions, and their victims should all have known better than to provoke the dangerous animal. But there's really no difference between a "good person" and a "bad person" aside from their actions. So we can't really hold the victims responsible for their actions either, because they're just animals as well, doing the things THEY'RE inclined to do anyway. So rape, murder, all that, it's no one's fault, really, it's just a bunch of animals doing what animals do. Congratulations! You've just reduced all crime to a form of natural selection. Aren't you proud of yourself?

 

[mireko]

Yeah.. don't see this thread going nice places.

Blaming the victim is both incredibly stupid/illogical and disgusting, not a winning combination.

The problem with the "clothes" argument (and the most disturbing part of all of this) is that rapists are human beings. Most of them don't even have significant mental illnesses, they're just horrible, horrible people. If an animal attacks somebody, we don't consider them to have a say in the matter. If a human attacks another, it is entirely the attacker's fault.

No matter how you look at it, these people made the decision attack someone in a completely inhuman and indefensible way. You can argue risk management (with someone else, I don't know the statistics), but it will be completely overshadowed by the fact that people shouldn't be raping people in the first place.

 

[Grunt_Man11]

There's too much victim blaming period.

I swear, it seems that the worst thing you can do is be the victim of a crime these days.

Everyone will bend over backwards for the rights of the criminal, even if the amount of solid evidence against him/her redefines the term "beyond a reasonable doubt," but no one seems to care about the rights of the victim.

"Well, the criminal is innocent till proven guilty."
Yeah, but the victim is guilty even when innocent.

 

[funguy2121]

What have psychological experts and profilers been telling us for years? Rape is about power, not about sex. That's why homosexual rape happens so much in prison even though statistically it has to be occurring with great frequency with offenders who would never even experiment out in the real world. The look of the victim has absolutely nothing to do with it. The case can be argued that looks may be a factor for perpetrators of date rape, for whom I believe an (at least perceived) inability to otherwise get laid is the prime motivator in the opinions of many, including myself. But rape by force is always, always about power. And possibly little dicks.

 

[Bara_no_Hime]

I am specifically not discussing rape! I am discussing the idea of not blaming the victim generally and I even wrote it right there. Seriously, come on folks! the reason i am specifically not discussing rape and other monstrous crimes is because a. rapists have been shown to just do it because they want to and b. because there is no way to 'deserve' rape.

Sorry, I should have specified the cop from that interview as the one I was saying was wrong. Didn't mean your thread. ^^;;

 

[JaredXE]

Well that's a nice theory but the police officer was giving more useful real-world advice. Remember that you can look from a point of idealism but the officer has to be pragmatic and frankly he's probably right in real life.

Rape's a tricky one, I can't say as I fully understand the whats and whys but in some other non rape related cases yes, the victim really does cause the situation themselves. It's perfectly fair to blame the victim if it really is their fault.

That line of thinking is dangerous.
"You just shot that guy!"
"He was acting like a douchebag. He was asking for it."

Don't act like a douchebag to a person with a gun.

That said, don't dress like you're on the prowl and then walk alone at night, or accept drinks from strangers at bars or any of the other things that can facilitate an assault. Is it the victim's fault....no. Could the victim have used their brain instead of being an idiot and provoking an assault....oh hell yeah.

 

[AlkalineGamer]

Oh how very 'black and white'.

A person who would rape is probably a bad person anyway.
The last thing they need is to be provoked.
If you covored yourself in bacon, then got mauled by an animal, then alot of the blame does rest with you.

Sure, yeah, prancing around in front of a bear wearing a bacon onesie is not going to be the smartest idea, no, but the key point is that bears are animals, and we are not.

No, you know what? Let's roll with this.

So "bad people" are now just a type of animal. They can't be held responsible for their actions, and their victims should all have known better than to provoke the dangerous animal. But there's really no difference between a "good person" and a "bad person" aside from their actions. So we can't really hold the victims responsible for their actions either, because they're just animals as well, doing the things THEY'RE inclined to do anyway. So rape, murder, all that, it's no one's fault, really, it's just a bunch of animals doing what animals do. Congratulations! You've just reduced all crime to a form of natural selection. Aren't you proud of yourself?

Yes, very...
No.

I don't think you quite understood me, that was a hypothetical situation, designed to provide a message, out of context.

A sexual predator is precisely that, a predator.
They do 'act' like animals (sometimes) and i can't imagine women 'baiting' them, exactly helps the situation.

And yes we are animals, and like animals we too are driven by sex, and some people can't help themselves.

 

[BreakfastMan]

Trying to pin rape or sexual assault situations on the victim is fucking disgusting anyway you look at it. I don't care what you are wearing, it has no relevance to getting raped.

QFT. I just do not understand the mentality behind this type of stuff. To me, it makes no sense. The victim is never to blame for the crimes committed against them. Ever.

 

[Agayek]

I understand and you're right about being careful because it makes you more of a target depending on the subject- but.. the main ideal I am getting at is that she has a right to look that way. Dressing that way only made her the target of the dude who would of targeted a perfectly well dressed lady anyhow. That being said, she was just the picking out of any other girl at the time.

It sickens me really.. that people can be so low to aim for a girl who's at a disadvantage for choosing to look or act a certain way. I got a really good example I would like to show you and see if you understand my point of view:

Example: If you're on the subway and you see someone sleeping who has $20 hanging out of his pocket, depending on what type of person you are- you'd steal that money if you were a bad person (or greedy). Now, if the money was $40 instead, you'd still steal it. So, ether way she was a victim who just was prized more because of her clothing, but the man who did it was bad from the start. He was going to do it at some point as the example I have given. Hope that was explained well because I tend to write what I think most of the time.

Well yea. Anyone has the right to dress however the fuck they want, but if you think that the instances of date rape and various other similar crimes are not effected by what they're wearing, you're ludicrously naive.

I'm sorry to break it to you, but the world is not perfect. Some people are just, for lack of a better term, evil. Tempting evil people into targeting you is never a smart idea.

I'm not trying to say Sally McSluttypants is at fault for being raped, far from it. It's never anyone's fault but the attacker. That does not change the fact that dressing like a whore in a potentially bad situation is a bad idea. Just like falling asleep on a subway with a $20 bill hanging out of your pocket. It's certainly not your fault you got [robbed/raped], but you didn't go out of your way to protect yourself from it either.

 

[Azaraxzealot]

Trying to pin rape or sexual assault situations on the victim is fucking disgusting anyway you look at it. I don't care what you are wearing, it has no relevance to getting raped.

which is why a lot of japanese laws sicken me. they usually blame the victim in cases of bullying, rape, murder, etc.

 

[RJ Dalton]

Oh, a can of worms. Yummy.

Okay, the whole "dressing like sluts invites victimization" only goes so far. If you dress suggestively, it's going to draw people who are interested in what you are suggesting, fair enough. But when you go into something like rape, that's a whole different subject. Most rapists aren't in it because it's about sex, but about power. They're not raping you because you turn them on, they're doing it because they want to have power over you. There's usually something really fucked up going on in the minds of rapists and there's little you can do to influence them one way or the other - or, at least little that you have any way of knowing about.
Exceptions exist, but even in said possibilities, slutty dressing might draw them to you, but no way in hell am I going to take responsibility away from the person who actually did the act. Nobody is so hardwired by their sex-drive that they absolutely *must* have sex with whatever arouses them. You always have complete control over what you put your dick into. *insert picture of secretary listening with shock to the sound of Peter screaming while electric pencil sharpener whirs*

 

[LordFisheh]

In this kind of case, in no way can you blame the victim.

But, there is a line IMO. Someone could be mugged walking through a dark alley. Sure he has every right to walk through the alley, but if he sees a gang of thugs standing there, openly flashing knives about, you'd expect him to show some sense.

Again, in no way does this kind of thing really make it a victim's fault as such, and they certainly haven't done anything wrong. It just means that there were actions they could have taken to protect themselves that they didn't. I don't mean anything as intrusive as 'thou shalt not dress provocatively', but avoiding walking through an unlit park or not going home with an almost-stranger who's been keeping your glass full are things people should know to do. It's not their fault, but in some cases things can be avoided.

It's not the victim's fault, and it doesn't alleviate the severity of the perpetrator's crimes, but it's just kinda dumb to walk around in a hooker uniform in a bad neighborhood (or when too drunk to walk straight, etc).

They should be able to, but that's not going to make it any less of a stupid idea.

Or pretty much this, yeah.

 

[GeekFury]

There is no 'cause' for rape due to clothes, if people pin it on that they are morons. People who rape someone then go 'Well they were asking for it the way they were dressed' need to be culled from the gene pool. I'm fully in favour of death sentances to rapests or castration, chemical or physical, but in the original post, I'd say mandetory death sentances for pedophile rapiests.

Though, I do also blame parents who dress or let their children dress provocatively. Not because I think it causes these cases, I just think it's disgusting to see a child, not even a teenager, dressing in such a manner. Those parents need to have classes to teach them how to raise their spawn.

 

[Lawyer105]

That's just it:

While I agree that the Toronto officers choice of words and candor were inappropriate, I think what he said wasn't exactly wrong. Of course, you are never, EVER to blame the victim for the crime that was committed against them, but let me throw this scenario to you:

A guy is walking through a rough neighbourhood waving a wad of cash around, and he gets mugged.
Now, obviously the one who mugged the guy is in the wrong 100%. That was illegal, and he should be punished.
And the guy should have the right to wave around money as much as he wants without fear of being attacked and robbed. But it's a naive and dangerous game to play. Ideally, I should be able to leave my doors unlocked, my keys in my car, and my money on my counter. But it's asking for trouble if I do any of those things.

Again, not my fault if someone robs me. I have the right to leave my door unlocked, my money out, and my keys in my car. But, at the risk of sounding redundant, it's dangerously naive to do any of those things.

This.

In addition, it isn't always as clear cut as many people think. Drag a woman into an alley and do her while she's screaming - sure. Straight up rape, no question.

Two people go to a party, get absolutely rat-faced, and wake up in bed together? Is that rape? I'd argue that clearly it isn't.

But what if little 17-19 year old is still staying with her parents. What if they're going to disapprove of her idiot choices. [http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-1344492/Good-Morning-America-weather-girl-Heidi-Jones-confessed-fake-Central-Park-rape-claim.html] It's easy to cry rape and blame it on the dude. Most juries will side with the woman almost automatically. [http://www.thelocal.se/33232/20110415/] And since he pretty clearly did sleep with her, and since (most people anyway) won't be doing it in public, it's not like he's going to have a lot of witnesses to back up his version. [http://business.timesonline.co.uk/tol/business/law/article710504.ece] So now the dude's burned, in jail and on the sex offenders register for life. [http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/england/manchester/4713968.stm]

And let's not even start in on the potential for claiming rape as revenge for getting dumped, infidelity or whatever. [http://falserapesociety.blogspot.com/2008/07/revenge-seems-to-have-been-motive-for.html]

Rape is a huge problem - no question - but women have to stop using it as an excuse for their poor judgement or a revenge tactic as well before I'll be totally sympathetic.

 

[DrOswald]

Well that's a nice theory but the police officer was giving more useful real-world advice. Remember that you can look from a point of idealism but the officer has to be pragmatic and frankly he's probably right in real life.

Rape's a tricky one, I can't say as I fully understand the whats and whys but in some other non rape related cases yes, the victim really does cause the situation themselves. It's perfectly fair to blame the victim if it really is their fault.

That line of thinking is dangerous.
"You just shot that guy!"
"He was acting like a douchebag. He was asking for it."

I think what generic gamer is trying to say is that negative behavior results in negative results. For example, a if a man becomes addicted to drugs, gets way over his head in debt to a dealer and is then murdered by said dealer for failure to pay, the man got himself into a bad situation and it is his fault he was murdered. The murder is no less horrible, nor is the murderer any less guilty, but it cannot be denied that the man played a part in his own murder.

Similarly, a women who dresses like a slut, travels to a bad part of town known for violent crime, and then lets a stranger get her stone drunk plays a large part in her own rape. The rape is no less horrendous, and the rapist no less guilty, but it cannot be denied that the woman could have prevented the rape if she would have not been so foolish.

I seriously doubt the case with the 11 year old was the result of foolish behavior, but the point still stands that bad decisions lead to bad consequences.