Blizzard Admits Diablo III End-Game Failure

[bakan]

So in Diablo II(+expansion) you could actually hunt for interesting set items (unique stuff) and leveling took ages to keep players busy.
Diablo III consists mostly of randomly generated items, you have an auction house and you can reach max level in a couple of days.

It's kinda hard to believe that they were unable to predict this.

 

[viranimus]

You know... This has me thinking. Why is the reaction to this game so non existent? Had this been EA and say Bioware... people would demand heads on pikes. But Blizzard and Activision do something that is far far far more insidious, and its like no one is even remotely miffed about it.

 

[SL33TBL1ND]

Let's be honest everyone, D3 is a mess. Their launch was a mess, the way they designed the online integration is a mess, and now the end of the game has been determined to be a mess by themselves, despite no previous Diablo game ever needing such things. It's almost as if they've forgotten what game they were meant to be making.

 

[lapan]

They messed up the itemhunting which is usually one of the main selling points of these games.

Thanks to the auction house droprates of uniques are insanely low and set items are crafting only and can have attributes of other classes.
Thanks to that most you will ever get is generic yellows and the auction house further lowers the motivation to farm those for yourself.

And then there is the fact that everything on inferno can 1-3 shot you.

 

[Jzolr0708]

This is not that surprising from a company that's releasing an expansion to their game based on a joke from WC3

 

[Woem]

Can someone explain me what "end game" means in this context? What is a "sustainable end game"?

 

[Malk_Content]

Can someone explain me what "end game" means in this context? What is a "sustainable end game"?

End Game is merely content that one can do after all else is said and done to further enjoy the game. Think Item Worlding or the post game content in the Disgaea titles or the randomly generated dungeons of Torchlight and the soon to be out Path of Exile.

Sustainable would be end game content that not only keeps people playing for as far ahead as one can predict, but is easy to produce. For Blizzard this normally means ridiculous amounts of grind, so that you have the right gear in order to grind the next tier and so on and so forth. They need to do this as they've designed games in such away that their income is dependant on people hanging around for years and continue paying.

 

[Sangnz]

They missed the point of ARPGs by a mile with D3.
Look at Diablo 2, Titan Quest or Torchlight to name a few who got the formula right.

Replayability and sustainability are caused by a few key points (IMHO).

Items, we all love to find them, D3 forgot that the biggest thrill people get in these games is the feeling when finding a set or unique (legendary) item. D3 massively downplayed sets and uniques to the point that most same lvl yellows were typically better removing any of that feeling of striking the jackpot, this removes all incentive to hunt down these awesome items and reduces it to hoping we get a good stats roll on our next yellow. Given the universal uselessness of most of these items, I know a few armour pieces are valued due to being able to have a stat that couldn't normally be on that slot, it just reduces the thrill to the point of meh.
Add in you can't even reliably farm gear for the next difficulty level from the one proceeding it and due to changes in MF and the new NV buff you can't even reliably farm gear until you hit 60 anyway and it just builds up the frustrations.

No point in creating a new character of the same class. Lets face it while you can argue the pros and cons of the skill system in D3 one of the biggest replayability killers is that you can change skills at any time no need to make a new character. With almost any ARPG part of the fun/challenge for a lot of people was building their toons. Building your stats and skills correctly was as important as your gear if nor more so, anyone could face roll normal difficulty with any build but to progress in the harder levels you needed to learn your class and how to shape it properly.

Customisability, most ARPGs give you the gear and you do with it as you will, melee wizard why not, ranged barbarian go for broke. D3 totally removed this aspect by removing the attacks based on weapon type and forcing you to only use your abilities, if you want a sword and board Demon Hunter tough you will be stuck only being allowed to throw grenades because demon hunters dunno how to swing a sword.
The other thing that baffled and annoyed me about this is the arbitrary weapon restrictions, monks can use polearms but not 2hand swords or axes but the wizard can use 2hand axes and swords but no polearms etc. What is the point in this beyond placing further limitations on us?

The last two points feed into the final point in that your character no longer feels like yours, the game just gives you your skills, it doles out your stat progression for you, you have no say in how to develop your character just follow the prescribed path and do as your told.

TBH D3 feels like babys first ARPG in many ways by removing complexity and "streamlining" the game it just doesn't feel deep or satisfying to me I have no urge to try new builds because you can experience everything a class has to offer first time around. I had about 5 different necromancer in D2, each with differing play styles and unique skill sets.

 

[tehroc]

'It's not like World of Warcraft where we can put out new systems and content every couple of months.'

When has there ever been an ever where WOW got new content within a couple of months? A couple of months is two, not six.

 

[Frostbyte666]

SNIP

Hear Hear, thank you for writing exactly how I've felt about this issue so well and why I get annoyed by the people who don't seem to understand why people who refuse to buy and play D3 due to various issues are so hacked off.

OT: I would have thought they should have been ready for EG content by now, on the other hand shouldn't they have EG content sent out with the actual game that people payed for rather most of the game with the last bit chopped off. They had 12 years to develop this and they've had WoW. Couldn't they predict how long it took people to finish all the initial content of WoW and think ok this much content would be roughly this many game hours to complete everything, therefore most people would be reaching endgame content after about this long, simple statistics here.

 

[tredien]

It probably says something that I haven't gotten anywhere near the end-game for D3. I quit playing after the fifth time I almost died due to Internet lag IN A SINGLE-PLAYER GAME.

Also, from quite a few forum posts I've read in other places, the higher difficulties have item drop-rates and enemy skills that practically mandate either grouping with other players or hitting the auction house for gear that'll help survival.

Pretty much, once you get to Inferno the difficulty (depending on your class) is time, it becomes nothing but watching the AH and gold farming. I've pretty much hit a brick wall with Act 2 on my Barb, the gear I need never drops or when the it does drop its mostly worthless for my class. I think out of about 60-70 rare drops I find something that might be usable but not really good enough to help push me further.

Exactly what I felt when I played Diablo 3.

 

[minimacker]

All those years of development. I can clearly see they have paid off.

 

[Don Savik]

"Grinding gear is pointless if you can't show it off in pvp" really? because the majority of D2 and D3 players played the game single player. Dungeon crawlers are fun because of the addictive nature of getting new loot, you don't necessarily have to show it off. Hell, I play tons of rpgs single player without thinking the gear im getting is pointless because I can't use it as bragging rights.

I'm not defending Blizzard's business actions or design choices, I'm just pointing out that fans these days can get so demanding that companies have to apologize for content that would've been serviceable not even 1 year ago.

Its not a subscription game, its a normal retail title like any other. There doesn't have to be "end game". There doesn't need to constantly be a persistant progression in every single game.

 

[Skratt]

My question is, what kind of endgame is even really considered an "endgame" for ARPGs?

This is what I'm wondering as well as someone who hasn't really played much in the genre before. I always thought it was just a matter of grinding, PvP and trying out other character builds that sustained these games in the end. Have I been wrong in this assumption?

No you are completely correct, but I'm sure there are a bunch of people that will try to argue the contrary. World of Warcraft Raids are essentially grind fests for loot, but if that's what people want, more power to them.

 

[JerrytheBullfrog]

Only Blizzard can get away releasing a game that had been in development for over a decade, unfinished, missing key systems, in many ways completely broken and STILL have fans lining up to sing their praises.
I hope their fans start to wake up soon.

You know... This has me thinking. Why is the reaction to this game so non existent? Had this been EA and say Bioware... people would demand heads on pikes. But Blizzard and Activision do something that is far far far more insidious, and its like no one is even remotely miffed about it.

Because the game itself is awesome? It's the stuff around it that people don't like.

What were Blizzard doing for the beta testing? Using it just for hype?
This game and SC2 have ruined Blizz's rep and both games are eerily quiet. New Blizzard is a complete failure outside of WoW

You put in an AUCTION HOUSE and expect the item hunt to be sustainable?

Bingo. Also the volume of shit gear is overwhelming. +X STRENGTH & +X INTELLIGENCE is ridiculous for any item.

Okay, you realize you did invalidate your argument by saying that StarCraft 2, which has dominated the esports scene, is "Eerily quiet"? If anything it's one of their biggest triumphs.

 

[Ascarus]

You put in an AUCTION HOUSE and expect the ITEM HUNT to be sustainable?

/thread. my thoughts exactly. why hunt when you can search and buy? and with gold being so easy to get, only a die-hard wouldn't take advantage of the AH.

 

[Callate]

Clearly, they need Diablo III to link up with Spore.

(I'm half-joking. Yes I know they're from different companies and divided by a few years and Spore probably doesn't even have more than a handful of players actively playing it any longer. Still, wouldn't it be kind of cool if the end-game monsters of one game were designed by players in another?)

Mm, sorry to interrupt. Please resume the latest episode of "You're not really understanding the delight in being savagely beaten by Blizzard/ Blizzard killed my family and ate my pets."

 

[Smertnik]

Two words: Ladder system.

 

[Kekkonen1]

Hey. Thanks for giving such a level-headed answer. I shall try to answer some of your concerns (its a bit long, bear with me).

Kudos for actually bringing a level headed reason to dislike the always online DRM.

Im not a blizz apologist, but I do stand for theres a difference between a shitty game and a company's legal decisions making the game less accessible. Bashing a game because your internet connection/pc isnt up to online gaming is like calling crysis shitty because your pc cant run it on full graphics settings. As for server downtime: D3 isnt a bad game because of it, thats blizz being idiots. Calling D3 a bad game because the company doesnt realise 5mill people online at the same time require A LOT of server power to handle it, is facepalm worthy.

This I ofcourse agree with, there is definatly a difference and just because Blizzard acts like jerks doesn't automatically make the game bad. I suspect that if I could play it the way I want to I would probably enjoy it.

Just for fun though, just let me tell you about the first 20mins that I played on my cousins account (before I was locked out due to being in a different region). Please realize though, this comes from someone who loved Diablo 1 and 2, not because I played them over and over again with friends on battlenet and collected loot, but because I enjoyed the story and atmosphere.

My first impression: MAAAN this intro-movie is low-res. I dont know about you, but I am a HD-freak and having that ammount of artifacts in CGI-movies in a game I would have payed 60USD for is just crazy. And no, my computer plays the game in full-hd max settings without problems. I am not the only one that reacts on this, although I am probably one of the few that actually cares. And yes Blizzard still makes GORGEOUS movies, but that counts for little when they give us so highly compressed movie-clips with our games).

Second Impression: (Diablo 1 and 2 spoilers, do I still have to warn for those?) Ok, I chose a barbarian... And my motivation for fighting is that I "want to test my blade against evil" ?! Seriously? That is it? In Diablo 2 I was chasing after the freaking hero from the first game that was gradually being taken over by Diablo! That was AWESOME and really cool... in this game I am just some no-name barbarian that wants to test my might? That really does not get me motivated at all!

Third impression: I started playing, suddenly I was just thrust unto a road, I beat some zombies. Combat felt smooth and nice, but I really lacked any sort of buildup of the story. Here I finished playing, it was late at night and when I logged in next morning I was locked out.
Sor far: Game might very well be fun, but seems to be really lacking in story-apartment. Am I the only one that cares about that? Blizzard doesn't seem to care anymore (SC2 was also a real letdown when it came to story).

But yeh, blizz should have added an offline mode where you cant get achievements, use AH, and the characters there cant be used online. They wouldve still sold 5mill copies (if not more) had they done that. A real investment fail of blizz tbh.

I would call it more of a betrayal to their fans than an investment failure. I think Blizzard probably gets more money this way, but sometimes you have to look at why companies like Blizzard, Valve and Bioware became this big and got such a huge and loyal following from the beginning. It sure as hell wasn't by squeezing every cent out of every customer at every turn, it was by making great games that the fans loved.

Oh, and to please the gods of nitpicking: Do you have a source that duping/hacking is just as common in D3 as in D2? I ask because I wonder if its true. By hacking Im not refering to stolen accounts (cant blame the game for idiots falling for phishing scams), but the game being altered even if its a always online game.

First of all, wether it is more or less than in Diablo 2 I wouldn't know, never having played Diablo 2 online. Also, I dont have a source (although Blizzard banning loads of cheaters should be evidence enough that cheating obviously exists) but dont really feel that I need one. As soon as there are instances of duping/hacking, that is an immidiate fail as we were told that the main reason that we as players would benefit from an always-online envoriment would be that we would not have to deal with such things. Now, instead of making sure that players that play online dont have to deal with hackers, now even we that just want to play singelplayer may run the risk of being duped somehow. This is not improvement.

Also, I absolutely LOATHE lagging and will never buy a game that lags in singelplayer.

As I stated before, I find this argument strange, considering how many AAA games like dark souls and skyrim had some INSANE framerate drops and game breaking bugs, yet no one complained about that (some did ofc, but not the same scale as D3 lag got). The moment a game got lag, THEN it is an outrage. Why is lag so much more infuriating compared to bugs and framerate drops?

The thing is, and here I can ofcourse only speak for myself, I dont play games with huge game-breaking bugs or framerate-issues that make it virtually unplayable either. I have always complained that Bethesda-games are a bit too buggy for my taste and dont generally play them. But I was never a fan to begin with so it doesn't really bother me.
Also, I think there is a marked difference. Bethesda makes huge open-world games and no game is perfect, there will always be bugs. Do I think Bethesda could maybe make a better job att lessening the ammount of bugs? Sure, but I dont think those sorts of games will ever be free of bugs. In the same way, if I wanted to play WoW or FFXI I wouldnt complain about lag, those are the kind of games where it would be expected to encounter lags.

But lag in a singelplayer-game? That is where it becomes unacceptable. No matter how many people want to chant that Diablo 3 is an mmo that is just not true, neither is it a singelplayer-game. It is a game with singel- and multiplayer options (just like Diablo 1 and 2 were), and there to make a game where even people playing alone has to endure lagg, that is simply not acceptable.
A huge open-world game like Skyrim might be impossible to make completely without bugs, but a game such as Diablo was never impossible to make without lag for those wanting to play singelplayer. I guess that is the big difference for me.

 

[viranimus]

Only Blizzard can get away releasing a game that had been in development for over a decade, unfinished, missing key systems, in many ways completely broken and STILL have fans lining up to sing their praises.
I hope their fans start to wake up soon.

You know... This has me thinking. Why is the reaction to this game so non existent? Had this been EA and say Bioware... people would demand heads on pikes. But Blizzard and Activision do something that is far far far more insidious, and its like no one is even remotely miffed about it.

Because the game itself is awesome? It's the stuff around it that people don't like.

Sorry, that does more to reinforce what we said than detract from it. Look at ME3. The 50+ hours of gameplay was great and generally very well received. It was the last 5 minutes that sparked a massive outrage. But Blizzard creates a game that actually screws with the industry, screws people out of playing long term/short term, adversely effects the entire performance of the game, utilizes broken and incomplete systems and demands constant upkeep on the game of which the staff failed to prepare for, but fans say "because its awesome!"