Blizzard Admits Diablo III End-Game Failure

[Nalgas D. Lemur]

Grim Dawn should be out in a year. Never see any mention of it though. People always bring up Torchlight 2, but never Grim Dawn!
Looks like the proper D3 at least, and it's made by Crate(the guys that did the awesome Titan Quest game). Got all my hype redirected to that game for now.

I normally don't pre-order games, just on principle (who knows if something's going to suck before it comes out?), but TQ was so much fun and they've been so good keeping up with both the TQ and GD community and letting people know what's been going on with the development process and learning from people what did and didn't work in their previous game that should be kept/changed/improved that I've owned my copy since the beginning of 2010.

They seem to be fixing just about all the little things about TQ that bugged me, adding a bunch of cool new stuff, and doing everything right that D3 did wrong, so I'm still excited. Their multiclass system that's coming back from TQ is my favorite skill system from any ARPG ever, because there's always some new and ridiculous combination to try out whenever you think you've run out of things to do, and the lack of DRM and full support for mods (xMax in TQ was glorious, and that's just barely scratching the surface) is always nice.

 

[Hezz]

My question is, what kind of endgame is even really considered an "endgame" for ARPGs? Endless dungeons? PvP? The only games of this type that I have played recently are Torchlight and Diablo 3 so I'm not exactly sure what an endgame would even entail with this genre. What did Diablo 2 do that kept people around for like a decade? and was it even an endgame or did people just play the game over and over with different characters?

Well, Torchlight had that bonus 100 floors dungeon after you finished the main game. iirc they got progressively harder as you went, but I'm not sure how hard they actually got as I didn't really bother too much with it.

 

[Rad Party God]

Blizzard's fans kinda reminds me of Sonic's fans. Whatever they do, they just can't please anyone anymore.

And Blizzard itself kinda reminds me of Sonic Team. Except with less shitty games that actually sells in the millions.

 

[DeadlyYellow]

Well I still congratulate Blizzard for making a pretty decent spin-off, but now I want the proper sequel.

Ah well. Torchlight 2 is around the corner.

 

[Nazulu]

Blizzard's fans kinda reminds me of Sonic's fans. Whatever they do, they just can't please anyone anymore.

And Blizzard itself kinda reminds me of Sonic Team. Except with less shitty games that actually sells in the millions.

Your kidding, right? If any thing, the fans are too easy to please, buying the game just because it has the logo on the box. It's the bloody Blizzard fans defending all these bullshit policy's. Hell, if you actually read through these threads, you'll notice heaps of people saying how much they enjoyed the game. Of course, this thread is more focused on the mistakes.

The new Blizzard team is like the new Sonic team in that they make really obvious flaws, and for some reason they both have really shit writing too.

 

[Kekkonen1]

Most haters have barely touched the game, and have just read about always online DRM and RMAH. For some reason, theses things infuriate em more than higher taxes. Im baffled myself.

Maybe, and this is a crazy notion, but maybe we who haven't played Diablo 3 and cannot shut up about how angry we are about always online DRM (and to a lesser extent RMAH) are actually fans that LOVED the first 2 Diablo-games and have, just like you, been looking forward to Diablo 3 for a very long time. Maybe we aren't just all "haters" who hate on Blizzard just because it's cool. Maybe we are/were actually very big fans of Blizzard and maybe, just maybe, the reason we are all so upset is because we ALSO want to play Diablo 3, but not the Diablo 3 that Blizzard has made (also, I dont really like higher taxes but I wouldn't start complaining about it on a video game-forum).

I was a HUGE Blizzard-fan. I played Warcraft 1-3, Starcraft 1-2 and Diablo 1-2 like crazy, but I will NOT condone the kind of anti-consumerism that Blizzard has started doing, but even more than that: I dont want to play online!!

I dont care that always online-drm is supposed to give me some sort of improved experience. I dont care that it is supposed to hinder duping/hacking (which obviously it doesn't). I dont care that people think that playing online is the "correct way" of playing Diablo. I never ever ever played Diablo 1 and 2 online and I am convinced that I was far from alone in this. For me the whole point of Diablo was to feel utterly alone and exposed in the dark catacombs fighting off the forces of hell by myself. I was supposed to be a brave warrior and the last hope. Not one of an army of adventurers that has some sort of race to see who can kill Diablo the fastest/most times. That is how I, and many others, liked to play the game and nothing would have hindered Blizzard from creating an offline-mode for Diablo 3 as well. Also, I absolutely LOATHE lagging and will never buy a game that lags in singelplayer. If hacking/duping will happen anyway at least let me play the game in singelplayer offline.

But Blizzard doesn't care about me. A player like me, who cares more about the story than stats or leveling or loot (yes I used to like the stories in Blizzard-games, they were interesting and often well made although nothing revolutionary), a player like me who only plays singelplayer, I dont generate enough money for Blizzard. I just buy the game and play it, and that is just not the kind of player that Blizzard cares for anymore.

And if you are one of the Blizzard-apologists who is angry that "we" wont shut up about the lack of offline-play and that we should just go and play some other game, just remember that the reason that we wont shut up about it is that we dont WANT to play some other game. We WANTED to play Diablo 3, we had waited for many years to play Diablo 3, but we wanted to play it on our terms.

 

[Teshi]

My question is, what kind of endgame is even really considered an "endgame" for ARPGs? Endless dungeons? PvP? The only games of this type that I have played recently are Torchlight and Diablo 3 so I'm not exactly sure what an endgame would even entail with this genre. What did Diablo 2 do that kept people around for like a decade? and was it even an endgame or did people just play the game over and over with different characters?

User-generated content.

 

[Twilight_guy]

I hate to say it but Blizzard's idea of "end game" is forcing people to grind daily quests. That extends gameplay life but is very boring and tedious. It's a stop-gap. I hope that what they come up with for this is better then that.

 

[Rooster Cogburn]

It always amuses me when people desperately cling on to the hope that single player games won't be always online in the future.

Spoiler

They will.

Lol sure, sure. What does that remind me of? Oh yea:

 

[Clive Howlitzer]

Only Blizzard can get away releasing a game that had been in development for over a decade, unfinished, missing key systems, in many ways completely broken and STILL have fans lining up to sing their praises.
I hope their fans start to wake up soon.

 

[bakan]

So in Diablo II(+expansion) you could actually hunt for interesting set items (unique stuff) and leveling took ages to keep players busy.
Diablo III consists mostly of randomly generated items, you have an auction house and you can reach max level in a couple of days.

It's kinda hard to believe that they were unable to predict this.

 

[viranimus]

You know... This has me thinking. Why is the reaction to this game so non existent? Had this been EA and say Bioware... people would demand heads on pikes. But Blizzard and Activision do something that is far far far more insidious, and its like no one is even remotely miffed about it.

 

[SL33TBL1ND]

Let's be honest everyone, D3 is a mess. Their launch was a mess, the way they designed the online integration is a mess, and now the end of the game has been determined to be a mess by themselves, despite no previous Diablo game ever needing such things. It's almost as if they've forgotten what game they were meant to be making.

 

[lapan]

They messed up the itemhunting which is usually one of the main selling points of these games.

Thanks to the auction house droprates of uniques are insanely low and set items are crafting only and can have attributes of other classes.
Thanks to that most you will ever get is generic yellows and the auction house further lowers the motivation to farm those for yourself.

And then there is the fact that everything on inferno can 1-3 shot you.

 

[Jzolr0708]

This is not that surprising from a company that's releasing an expansion to their game based on a joke from WC3

 

[Woem]

Can someone explain me what "end game" means in this context? What is a "sustainable end game"?

 

[Malk_Content]

Can someone explain me what "end game" means in this context? What is a "sustainable end game"?

End Game is merely content that one can do after all else is said and done to further enjoy the game. Think Item Worlding or the post game content in the Disgaea titles or the randomly generated dungeons of Torchlight and the soon to be out Path of Exile.

Sustainable would be end game content that not only keeps people playing for as far ahead as one can predict, but is easy to produce. For Blizzard this normally means ridiculous amounts of grind, so that you have the right gear in order to grind the next tier and so on and so forth. They need to do this as they've designed games in such away that their income is dependant on people hanging around for years and continue paying.

 

[Sangnz]

They missed the point of ARPGs by a mile with D3.
Look at Diablo 2, Titan Quest or Torchlight to name a few who got the formula right.

Replayability and sustainability are caused by a few key points (IMHO).

Items, we all love to find them, D3 forgot that the biggest thrill people get in these games is the feeling when finding a set or unique (legendary) item. D3 massively downplayed sets and uniques to the point that most same lvl yellows were typically better removing any of that feeling of striking the jackpot, this removes all incentive to hunt down these awesome items and reduces it to hoping we get a good stats roll on our next yellow. Given the universal uselessness of most of these items, I know a few armour pieces are valued due to being able to have a stat that couldn't normally be on that slot, it just reduces the thrill to the point of meh.
Add in you can't even reliably farm gear for the next difficulty level from the one proceeding it and due to changes in MF and the new NV buff you can't even reliably farm gear until you hit 60 anyway and it just builds up the frustrations.

No point in creating a new character of the same class. Lets face it while you can argue the pros and cons of the skill system in D3 one of the biggest replayability killers is that you can change skills at any time no need to make a new character. With almost any ARPG part of the fun/challenge for a lot of people was building their toons. Building your stats and skills correctly was as important as your gear if nor more so, anyone could face roll normal difficulty with any build but to progress in the harder levels you needed to learn your class and how to shape it properly.

Customisability, most ARPGs give you the gear and you do with it as you will, melee wizard why not, ranged barbarian go for broke. D3 totally removed this aspect by removing the attacks based on weapon type and forcing you to only use your abilities, if you want a sword and board Demon Hunter tough you will be stuck only being allowed to throw grenades because demon hunters dunno how to swing a sword.
The other thing that baffled and annoyed me about this is the arbitrary weapon restrictions, monks can use polearms but not 2hand swords or axes but the wizard can use 2hand axes and swords but no polearms etc. What is the point in this beyond placing further limitations on us?

The last two points feed into the final point in that your character no longer feels like yours, the game just gives you your skills, it doles out your stat progression for you, you have no say in how to develop your character just follow the prescribed path and do as your told.

TBH D3 feels like babys first ARPG in many ways by removing complexity and "streamlining" the game it just doesn't feel deep or satisfying to me I have no urge to try new builds because you can experience everything a class has to offer first time around. I had about 5 different necromancer in D2, each with differing play styles and unique skill sets.