Blizzard and Games Workshop
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Ok, first time I've been called a tool but there is a first time for everything.auronvi said:
I actually like the dawn of war series far better than the starcraft one (so if you is calling me a fanboy yous is right feller =D) but I still hold to the fact that if games workshop missed out on makeing a game like starcraft back when it could have made them a load of cash then I certainly don't begrudge blizz their horded wealth.
Psst! You can get most every warhammer 40k book online on rapidshare in pdf format saves a playa a mint.
yea I did that^ cause I be a tool.
Cheers!
Being a HUGE GW fan I glad to see that some people actually recognize that Warhammer and 40K came first. I don't know the details about how Warcraft and Starcraft came about but I do believe that the two main GW games were heavy influences on Blizzard's titles. You could possibly even argue that Diablo was influenced by the early Warhammer RPG. Now before anyone starts bashing me as some Blizzard hater I have to say that I am also a huge fan of Warcraft and Starcraft. Even though both games do seem to borrow heavily from the Warhammer's (I mean in Warcraft III, the gryphon riders even have a quote: "This warhammer cost me 40k") Blizzard did make their own games out of them. As it has been stated before the GW games are much darker and bleaker than their Blizzard counterparts, and Blizzard has given its games some difference from the Warhammers. I definately believe that even though Warcraft and Starcraft may have orignally been based heavily (very heavily) on WHF and 40K they have evolved into their own unique stories. Plus in the end both Warhammer and Warcraft mainly use old fantasy archtypes that have been around forever so neither of them are that original. I love them all no matter how sterotypical or similar they seem.
P.S. Sorry about that, just couldn't help myself.
Bein' a Warboss uv da Orks, oi 'av to korrect ya cuz it ain't WAAAAAAAAARRRRGGGHHHH we be fightin' for, itz da WAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAGGGGHH! Notice da "!" on da end. Dat's very 'portant in da prenuzeation uv it.Madshaw said:
P.S. Sorry about that, just couldn't help myself.
The Protoss Warp in their units, just like the Eldar.Ursus Astrorum said:
And there is a Tauren army in warhammer, they're called the Beastmen.
oy vey people can be thick.
Let's clean up a few misconceptions:
1) We may never know the full story surrounding what culminated in WC1. Regardless, both GW and Blizzard are enormously successful, and the games you're playing now don't really look much of anything like they did 15-20 years ago, so why care?
2) Neither Blizzard nor GW actually came up with the ideas surrounding the design of SC and WH40K. Technecally the zerg, tyranids, space marines, and terrans are all derivative of previous Sci Fi works, but most prominently Starship Troopers. Hint: The book, not the movie.
3) Protoss, if nothing else, are just stock "They're more technologically advanced than we are!" aliens. Huge, streamlined ships don't really make one IP rip off another. And to be fair, lets go down the list and see how many differences there are, shall we?
4) The orcs presented in War Hammer are more or less orky. The orcs presented Warcraft are struggling between their demonic blood pact that they're trying to get out of, the rift between the idealist and the warmonger, and trying to return to their shamanstic roots. I think the biggest struggle for WH orcs is who's bigga.
5) Humans are like beige. Do you really want to try to draw differences between the two?
So what we're left with is nothing that's really a reasonable point to compare. Do we get mad at Blizzard for having green orcs? Do we get mad at Toyota for releasing a red car? No, we get mad when they crash into other cars.
If you want to throw stones for people copying other people trying to do it in the scifi / fantasy genres is just generally a bad place to do it- everyone's more or less ripping off everyone.
Let's clean up a few misconceptions:
1) We may never know the full story surrounding what culminated in WC1. Regardless, both GW and Blizzard are enormously successful, and the games you're playing now don't really look much of anything like they did 15-20 years ago, so why care?
2) Neither Blizzard nor GW actually came up with the ideas surrounding the design of SC and WH40K. Technecally the zerg, tyranids, space marines, and terrans are all derivative of previous Sci Fi works, but most prominently Starship Troopers. Hint: The book, not the movie.
3) Protoss, if nothing else, are just stock "They're more technologically advanced than we are!" aliens. Huge, streamlined ships don't really make one IP rip off another. And to be fair, lets go down the list and see how many differences there are, shall we?
4) The orcs presented in War Hammer are more or less orky. The orcs presented Warcraft are struggling between their demonic blood pact that they're trying to get out of, the rift between the idealist and the warmonger, and trying to return to their shamanstic roots. I think the biggest struggle for WH orcs is who's bigga.
5) Humans are like beige. Do you really want to try to draw differences between the two?
So what we're left with is nothing that's really a reasonable point to compare. Do we get mad at Blizzard for having green orcs? Do we get mad at Toyota for releasing a red car? No, we get mad when they crash into other cars.
If you want to throw stones for people copying other people trying to do it in the scifi / fantasy genres is just generally a bad place to do it- everyone's more or less ripping off everyone.
Okay, lets clear one thing up. The absolute original progenitor to both WH40K and SC, was the sci fi films of the 80's, which were in turn inspired by Starship Troopers by Robert A. Heinlein. The Zerg are ripoffs of Tyranids are ripoffs of the Aliens are ripoffs of the Arachnids.
Space Hulk was basically Aliens in Tabletop form.
Aliens basically set the stage for dark War Science Fiction. Everything to come out of WH40K and SC has its roots in James Cameron's film.
And, redundantly adding, all fantasy settings ever were inspired by J.R.R Tolkien.
Space Hulk was basically Aliens in Tabletop form.
Aliens basically set the stage for dark War Science Fiction. Everything to come out of WH40K and SC has its roots in James Cameron's film.
And, redundantly adding, all fantasy settings ever were inspired by J.R.R Tolkien.
Essentially, according to 'sources', Games Workshop and Blizzard were working on a Fantasy strategy game, this was Warhammer. Games Workshop apparently went "This isn't a good idea." and pulled out, Blizzard, who had completed most of the game. Went "Well tits.", They recycled those resources and used them to create Warcraft : Orcs and Humans.
I don't care what you think. Just remember how long it took Games Workshop to get into the video gaming business after Warcraft. I don't think it's because they didn't want too, I think it's because they knew they just missed out by pulling out their assets and name too early.
Frankly guys. We don't care anymore. Good Artists are original, great artists steal. Sadly, those words cannot be more truthful.
I don't care what you think. Just remember how long it took Games Workshop to get into the video gaming business after Warcraft. I don't think it's because they didn't want too, I think it's because they knew they just missed out by pulling out their assets and name too early.
Frankly guys. We don't care anymore. Good Artists are original, great artists steal. Sadly, those words cannot be more truthful.
Soviet Heavy said:
Slaanax said:
As for the Protoss, SH, I was just using that for humor. Hence, you know, the Pylon reference.Ursus Astrorum said:
Honestly... I'm just tired of everything Blizzard has been doing lately. I don't care much for them as a game company at all anymore. The only reason I keep passing glances to what they're doing is because of Diablo III. Once that's out, I won't give a shit about them once again for another 8 or so years.
Space Marines act like Starship Troopers (from the book, that is), Tyranids act like Arachnids, and Eldar are Tolkien's elves IN SPAAAAAACE! That way, Starcraft is a ripoff of a ripoff. And just for the record, i have strong dislike for both Blizzard and Games Workshop.auronvi said:
By the way, allow me to introduce you. Tv Tropes, auronvi. auronvi, Tv Tropes. Have a fun week toghether.
I was 8 when starcraft came out and never heard of warhammer, sorry I didn't jump into the conversation then.RedMenace said:Welcome to the party. Your only late by about 2 decades.
Everything I can say on the subject has already been said by others, so I will not type it in order not to cause needless repetition. Sooooo... yeah... ... hmmm...
Here, enjoy this related comic strip:
Funny comic tho. That's kinda what I feel... in a much less exaggerated way.
Off to this TVTropes that has been recommended to me twice already.
Does it matter? Blizzard never did anything original in their lives. What they did do was take existing things - IPs, game designs - and perfect them. Polish them until they glowed with a perfectly balanced, easily digestible sheen. Why not enjoy the games for what they are: fun?
What else are you going to have? A benevolent race that sprinkles daisies wherever they walk? When it comes to aliens, they pretty much have to be a super-advanced society or an all-consuming plague. Anything else would be boring.auronvi said:
Oh, and people confuse which came first because of popularity.
or at least till they make an expansion right.Daedalus1942 said:
i'm glad that GW seem to be widening their options. but dose it always have to be about the Space Marines, i mean what about chaos marines. on to the main point of this thread, i'm a fan of both games and the companies aside from playing WoW (don't ask long story) i like each companies games and i can spot the similarities and the differences, yet i don't feel that one rips off from the other, they are both original enough for people to tell them apart and enough alike for a fan of one series to play the other and not feel out of place playing it. i started out playing starcraft when my brother noticed how much i wanted to try it he game me his old laptop with the game when i was around 7, around 3 years ago i started warhammer 40k as a hobby and never once felt that GW ripped off blizzard or the other way around.Anoctris said:
I know I'm likely late to the party, but you do realize the irony of calling Blizzard hacks for copying Warhammer when Warhammer itself blatantly copies from multiple sources itself, right?
It's the circle of nerdome, where any concept remotely cool (And likely from the 80's if not earlier) is recycled time after time after time usually with a 'twist' to try and either hide how derivative the idea is or to try and make it unique to their own setting: The later being the case for both Starcraft and Warhammer.
Gaming itself hasn't had any truly original ideas in years, and even those are usually based off something else. Planescape: Torment for example, often argued as one of the highpoints of gaming as a story-telling medium, is based off the already existing D&D Planescape setting.
So the question isn't how derivative something is, but how well it pulls it off and adapts it to its own setting. And by those standards, both Starcraft and Warhammer alike are fantastic examples of their genres.
It's the circle of nerdome, where any concept remotely cool (And likely from the 80's if not earlier) is recycled time after time after time usually with a 'twist' to try and either hide how derivative the idea is or to try and make it unique to their own setting: The later being the case for both Starcraft and Warhammer.
Gaming itself hasn't had any truly original ideas in years, and even those are usually based off something else. Planescape: Torment for example, often argued as one of the highpoints of gaming as a story-telling medium, is based off the already existing D&D Planescape setting.
So the question isn't how derivative something is, but how well it pulls it off and adapts it to its own setting. And by those standards, both Starcraft and Warhammer alike are fantastic examples of their genres.
I'd call Warhammer derivative instead of "a ripoff". StarCraft, however, is so similar to Warhammer 40k in so many ways it's almost hard not to call it an incredibly blatant ripoff. Zerg are more similar to Tyranids then Coca-Cola is to Pepsi Cola. Protoss should be named fugly Eldar, and Terrans seem to be the only ones that aren't just completely stolen.
However, Warcraft doesn't seem to take as much from Warhammer Fantasy as 40k does with Starcraft. In fact, I'd say calling Warcraft a ripoff of Fantasy is a strech. There are so many armies in Warhammer that don't appear in Warcraft, like the Chaos armies, demons, the humans are pretty different, Orks/Orcs are quite different, High Elves and Dark elves are in Warcraft but they're only in the lore and the idea of High elves and Dark elves are anything but original.
It only gets on my case when someone says something stupid like "amg! dis iz gay cuz da warhammer online copyz wow!" when it's been made clear countless times the Warhammer universe was created before the Warcraft one was even conceived.
However, Warcraft doesn't seem to take as much from Warhammer Fantasy as 40k does with Starcraft. In fact, I'd say calling Warcraft a ripoff of Fantasy is a strech. There are so many armies in Warhammer that don't appear in Warcraft, like the Chaos armies, demons, the humans are pretty different, Orks/Orcs are quite different, High Elves and Dark elves are in Warcraft but they're only in the lore and the idea of High elves and Dark elves are anything but original.
It only gets on my case when someone says something stupid like "amg! dis iz gay cuz da warhammer online copyz wow!" when it's been made clear countless times the Warhammer universe was created before the Warcraft one was even conceived.