Blizzard and Games Workshop

[auronvi]

I have come to realize how much of a hack Blizzard is in the last few days. Now don't get me wrong, the Warcraft and Starcraft games are done very well and are both rightfully successful but their universes are far from original.

I am sure you have heard of the Warhammer games on PC. There is Warhammer 40k: Dawn of War and Warhammer Online. Dawn of War has been super successful because of people who played Starcraft and wanted a new experience without giving up the setting. Warhammer online is quoted as being a WoW clone and substitute. This is where my issue is.

Warhammer Fantasy Battle was a fantasy tabletop game that started in England in 1983. Warhammer 40k came out in 1988 which was a futuristic take on the tabletop game they started in '83. See where this is going?

In 1991 Warcraft: Orcs and Humans comes out. The name, obvious take on Warhammer and the two most prominent races in the tabletop game were used, Humans and Orcs. 1995 the sequel comes out, Warcraft II: Tides of Darkness. The game did sell well and warranted a sequel and then their second rip off happened, Starcraft. Blatant copy of Warhammer 40k. You have Humans (the Terran), Protoss (an alien race), and the Zerg (another alien race bent on consuming the universe). The Terran look like Space Marines. The Protoss look and act like Eldar and the Zerg basically are the Tyranids.

Now I can see Warcraft being an original game made by accident that was similar to Warhammer. I will even say that the names could have been coincidence but the very existence of Starcraft shows me they used these games and their universes to create their own. Agree or disagree, the games are great but just spread some appreciation for their roots, the Warhammer games. I just don't want to hear Warhammer games being called clones of Blizzard games.

 

[Ursus Astrorum]

Yep, these similarities are nothing new, and many a flame war has been started because of them. Point is that while Blizzard may have drawn a lot (and I mean a lot) of inspiration from GW's games, they gave their own twist on the material they used and made it their own. Among other, much more lore-intensive things, the Eldar do not have to construct additional pylons, and there is not a Tauren army in Warhammer (though I would so play it if there was).

So in the end, Blizzard aren't hacks. But I will agree that the idjits attacking GW games for copying Blizzard material are gravely misinformed.

 

[Soulgaunt]

Supposedly Starcraft was originally supposed to be a Warhammer 40k game but games workshop backed out, leaving Blizzard with nothing. So Blizzard turned it around.

It would easily explain the similarities of Terrans to Space Marines and zerg to Tyranids. Maybe to a lesser extent Protoss and Eldar.

However, the games have completely different gameplay and lore, so despite the fact that SC started out as WH40k, I think Blizzard turned it around nicely into something original and fun.

I thought it started with Warcraft being a project started by GW. At least, that's what I originally heard.

 

[Carlston]

This is nothing. It's just like the snottling I hear leave The Lord of the Ring and the 12 year old spouted "It's just a rip off of Harry Potter."

Yeah people can't understand there are others who not only did it first but did it better. And for people who defend Bliz with "Well they made WOW so Warhammer online is still a clone." Yeah? "Wow is Everquest clone..."

See how that works? Just because your popular don't mean you original...

 

[TheFacelessOne]

Its just another fanboy war, albeit to a lesser degree.

Just shut up and play.

 

[WolfLordAndy]

Like others have said I think GW originally wanted to make games with Blizzard, but GW backed out for whatever reason, leaving Blizzard with a half (if not fully) finsihed game, so they just chnaged some names about and published it, and then made history!

The sad thing is the original Warhammer Online (WO) - by Climax was going to be released a bit before WoW, but due to GW pulling out due to a larger then expected budget, the IP for warhammer bounced around loads before Mythic grabbed it and actually finished it.

There are many many older (and worse) WH and 40k games, Shadow of the Horned Rat, Realm of Chaos, Rites of War, Final Liberation, etc. But those were turn based games, basicly computerised versions of table top games.

Thes also a Bloodbowl game out that is inch for inch a digital version of the game. THough there are rumours of a FPS in the form of Space Hulk on the way...

 

[auronvi]

Yep, these similarities are nothing new, and many a flame war has been started because of them. Point is that while Blizzard may have drawn a lot (and I mean a lot) of inspiration from GW's games, they gave their own twist on the material they used and made it their own. Among other, much more lore-intensive things, the Eldar do not have to construct additional pylons, and there is not a Tauren army in Warhammer (though I would so play it if there was).

So in the end, Blizzard aren't hacks. But I will agree that the idjits attacking GW games for copying Blizzard material are gravely misinformed.

lol, at additional pylons...

Calling them hacks might be strong but at what point does "drawing inspiration" from a game become "ripping it off?"

Interesting bit: Andy Chambers is an author and game designer that worked for Games Workshop on many rulebooks and source books is now working as Creative Director on Starcraft II.

Oh, and they do have taurens...
http://www.games-workshop.com/gws/catalog/landingArmy.jsp?catId=cat340001a&rootCatGameStyle=
Look around on there. They are more than bull-men but the main units are half man, half bull.

I could find nothing saying Starcraft was a 40k game first and they backed out.

 

[ma55ter_fett]

This thread treads on an ancient battleground that has been the site of more flames wars than any other. Personally I think blizz simply took a cool idea from games workshop (who charge way the fuck to much for their products) and made it into an even better and more marketable product.

Who stole from who is irrelevant at the end of the day, what matters is which company has cashed in the most on their respective products.

 

[auronvi]

This thread treads on an ancient battleground that has been the site of more flames wars than any other. Personally I think blizz simply took a cool idea from games workshop (who charge way the fuck to much for their products) and made it into an even better and more marketable product.

Who stole from who is irrelevant at the end of the day, what matters is which company has cashed in the most on their respective products.

Every different model in the table top games comes from a mold. The plastic themselves doesn't cost much but the molds can cost millions of dollars to produce the one mold for an army. If the stuff was cheaper they wouldn't turn a profit on it.

This isn't meant to be a flame war, I am not in it for that. I am just making a discussion over what I was thinking as I got back into Warhammer 40k. I am sure it has all been said before, but this is the escapist and I was hoping we could just talk about it without fanboys.

And I think it does matter. You sound like a corporate tool when you say money is all that matters in the end which I am sure GW makes a pretty penny with its games as well.

 

[Ursus Astrorum]

Calling them hacks might be strong but at what point does "drawing inspiration" from a game become "ripping it off?"

Oh, and they do have taurens...
http://www.games-workshop.com/gws/catalog/landingArmy.jsp?catId=cat340001a&rootCatGameStyle=
Look around on there. They are more than bull-men but the main units are half man, half bull.

I could find nothing saying Starcraft was a 40k game first and they backed out.

Depends on what you do with it. You could argue that D&D's earliest phases were "ripping off of" LoTR, and by extension most every western fantasy RPG in existence with elves, dwarves, and hobbits/halflings/munchkins does too. Sure, they've got some races in common. Sure, its very similar in general. But the devil's in the details, and that's what sets the games and stories apart.

Also, there's a difference between minotaurs and anthropomorphic amerindian cows. A big difference. One's a bunch of marauding beasts with little-to-no grasp of the world apart from killing things and wandering labyrinths. The other are a race of mystic nomads with the ability to bend the very earth to their whim. And tauren look pretti-Err, Cooler. *ahem* Yes, cooler. That's what I was going to say. [sub][sub](Don't judge me)[/sub][/sub]

 

[Darks63]

Starcraft is more a rip of the earlier edition of 40k Rogue trader not the current setting.

 

[Ayuvir]

You could go further into this and say that Warcraft is somewhat taken form Dungeons and Dragons, just check some of the old DD spells and compare them to WoW spells...

 

[Madshaw]

A quick look on the internets told me that there are a lot of similarities between warhammer (which i have dabbled in but love the lore) and warcraft (i havn't played) but there are enough major differences to say that its not a direct copy.

for example one of the things that realy stood out as originl in fantasy is the way that they built on the orcs, they are a completly different breed to tolkeins, and as it now turns out warcrafts are very similar in shape, but the rest is different almost entirly. The orcs in both 40k and fantasy revolve around their central concept of WAAAAAARRRRGGGHHHH, as opposed to tribal pride or loyalty. in warhammer an orc is born with a tribe in its blood nd will seek it out and attempt to join it so that it cn fight the way it want to, they are not truly loyal to anything other than their dessire to fight and will happily kill their parents/brothers or what ever if there is no other opponent around for them to fight.

I gather that this is not the case for warcraft

on top of this example there is a lack of chaos gods, lizardmen (i think), the elves seem to be quite different (but still bloody annoying and overpowered and gay) and there isnt all that much variation to the humans while warhammer has 3 different human armies (as well as loads more in the fluff). the gnomes(/hobbits) arn't realy a big deal in warhammer

so yer, mybe the games were going to be the same thing, but blizzard have done a good enough job of seperating their franchise in my opinion (or wrcraft at least)

 

[auronvi]

Gonna play FFXIII now but I see what you guys are getting at. I know you use inspiration but I just feel that the games are too similar. My point is, you could probably take the stories from Starcraft and just use 40k names and it would work in the lore of Warhammer 40k.

Depends on what you do with it. You could argue that D&D's earliest phases were "ripping off of" LoTR, and by extension most every western fantasy RPG in existence with elves, dwarves, and hobbits/halflings/munchkins does too. Sure, they've got some races in common. Sure, its very similar in general. But the devil's in the details, and that's what sets the games and stories apart.

Also, there's a difference between minotaurs and anthropomorphic amerindian cows. A big difference. One's a bunch of marauding beasts with little-to-no grasp of the world apart from killing things and wandering labyrinths. The other are a race of mystic nomads with the ability to bend the very earth to their whim. And tauren look pretti-Err, Cooler. *ahem* Yes, cooler. That's what I was going to say. [sub][sub](Don't judge me)[/sub][/sub]

That's what's fun with Warhammer, it's like D&D, you can make up a story. If you started to play, you could give them a more peaceful background and almost ignore the current lore. Tauren sure are pretty though, lemme tell you... >.> What am I saying?

Ok Lightning, here I come.

 

[Lunar Templar]

hehe, didn't really notice that till recently, they do look alike, ( in starcraft as that's the one i played) and while at the beginning it might have been ripping of 40K, they certainly aren't now, since starcraft 2 still only has the humans, protos an wussy version of the nids (and they are -.-) there's still WAY more in 40k blizzard isn't going near, and most likely can't.

also, the setting of starcraft isn't as heavy as 40K's, there's like NO forgiveness in warhammer, even in the SM ranks, and that's not counting the inquisition. as some one else said, its in the diffrences between them.

 

[Horticulture]

Blizzard's innovation lies in their ability to make their games fun.

 

[Therumancer]

Supposedly Starcraft was originally supposed to be a Warhammer 40k game but games workshop backed out, leaving Blizzard with nothing. So Blizzard turned it around.

It would easily explain the similarities of Terrans to Space Marines and zerg to Tyranids. Maybe to a lesser extent Protoss and Eldar.

However, the games have completely different gameplay and lore, so despite the fact that SC started out as WH40k, I think Blizzard turned it around nicely into something original and fun.

I thought it started with Warcraft being a project started by GW. At least, that's what I originally heard.

This is true.

Back in the days of BBS systems and Echos the original "Warcraft: Orcs and Humans" reared it's head. The game began life as a Warhammer fantasy computer game that Blizzard wanted to sell to Games Workshop. GW was interested for a while but felt it wouldn't go anywhere (heh) and unlike some other companies were cool enough to let them do it anyway if they wanted to even with the stuff they pulled, as long as GW was not specifically mentioned as being involved.

When this first happened it was praised on RPG-type forums because nobody felt that the Warhammer world could truely be given "justice" in a CRPG. What's more in all likelyhood a lot of the mechanics inherant in Warhammer were heavily contrary to Warhammer canon, so of course there is a good chance that if released as "Warhammer" it would have been panned.

In the end Warcraft became a huge success on it's own, and it and it's spin offs continued to use an art style and material loosely based on GW properties going back to the original blessing. I don't remember ever hearing of any bad blood between the two companies at all, just between fanboys.


As far as WoW being an Everquest clone, that is an interesting question. To be honest I think that WoW can be argued to be the first true MMORPG that was designed specifically for
a 3D type virtual world.

I say this because what the original Everquest was, was a graphical represensation of a MUD. It used all of the MUD conventions, including skills like "Kick" and "Bash" which were directly taken from general "stock" Dikumud. If you MUDded a lot you could pretty much see the numbers in that context. Even terms like "Mob" come from MUDs, where a "Mob" is a specific kind of monster that is mobile (which is what mob is short for) and able to move from room to room. The idea of the "Tank" is also from MUDs.

In comparison WoW and it's much copied interface was designed from the ground up to be that kind of a game without any code/design coming from non-graphical text games, nor did the way it played have much to do with those conventions directly.

I probably don't articulate this well, but the point is that while you can look at the similarities I think you can see WoW as a true genesis in game design, where Everquest was largely based on previous online gaming developments of the time. This is simply my opinion though.

To be honest I was an Everquest Junky, I do not consider it's MUD inspiration now. I went to EQ II when it came out, but after disappointment I went to WoW and actually wound up being VERY impressed and have more or less stuck with it ever since. I've tried other MMORPGS but that one always brings me back.