Blizzard Brings Banhammer Down on 100,000 WoW Accounts

[Imperioratorex Caprae]

But just look at your rational in post 21 as to why I mighta thought you were a "fanboy". Your only retort to the lvl bost was it wasn't mandatory and some folks just didn't want to fall behind. A bot isn't mandatory and people use it to advance their character. If you can't see that particular connection I worry I'm starting to bruise my head again.

Consider this beef squashed. Moving on.

The key difference is that you're not necessarily skipping content, its all there for you to go back through and do at any time. None of the previous quests are completed nor areas explored. You're just getting a fresh toon at 10 levels below maximum. It doesn't play the game for you, because those parts of the game you would have had to go through to get there are still around and able to be played at any given point. Bots don't just get you to a certain point and let you go on from there, they play for you, and constantly taking that actual experience away. The only thing a level boost does is put a character at 90 instead of level 1, and it doesn't cut the content from you so you can still experience it.
Botting on the other hand is being used to earn more than levels, its being used to earn gear, have unfair advantages over human players and gain currency, which takes away from the player. The only thing a level boost does is skip some XP, but it takes nothing away and gives no real advantage since you still have to grind up to 100 by yourself (or with friends or whatever). Its not the same to me because aside from removing a huge time gap of leveling to 90, you don't get anything else except some level appropriate gear that eventually gets traded out through the course of Warlords of Draenor's introductory phase, as well as the journey from 90-100. Its not a max-level character, it doesn't give you unfair advantages over other players and it doesn't give you currency or gear that you'd otherwise have to earn normally, it just boosts you to the current expansions introductory level. Thats why they're different.
So shortened: Botting earns you things that give you an advantage over other players, Level boosting only gives you a character at level 90 and expects you to earn everything else (gear, currency, materials for crafting) yourself so no real advantage over a player who did the grind to 90 themselves. That is the difference and why I feel one (botting) is wrong and the other is just convenience, but not game-breaking. When things are game-breaking then I have a problem with it, unfair advantages and such.

 

[Pinky's Brain]

So here's a fun question. How low would WoW subs have to get before they stop enforcing these types of rules? I mean yeah, 100,000 is just a drop in the bucket right now but there are obviously more people than that using bots and WoW is dying.

We're all dying ... not quite there yet.

 

[Sarge034]

Consider this beef squashed. Moving on.

The key difference is that you're not necessarily skipping content, its all there for you to go back through and do at any time. None of the previous quests are completed nor areas explored. You're just getting a fresh toon at 10 levels below maximum. It doesn't play the game for you, because those parts of the game you would have had to go through to get there are still around and able to be played at any given point. Bots don't just get you to a certain point and let you go on from there, they play for you, and constantly taking that actual experience away. The only thing a level boost does is put a character at 90 instead of level 1, and it doesn't cut the content from you so you can still experience it.
Botting on the other hand is being used to earn more than levels, its being used to earn gear, have unfair advantages over human players and gain currency, which takes away from the player. The only thing a level boost does is skip some XP, but it takes nothing away and gives no real advantage since you still have to grind up to 100 by yourself (or with friends or whatever). Its not the same to me because aside from removing a huge time gap of leveling to 90, you don't get anything else except some level appropriate gear that eventually gets traded out through the course of Warlords of Draenor's introductory phase, as well as the journey from 90-100. Its not a max-level character, it doesn't give you unfair advantages over other players and it doesn't give you currency or gear that you'd otherwise have to earn normally, it just boosts you to the current expansions introductory level. Thats why they're different.
So shortened: Botting earns you things that give you an advantage over other players, Level boosting only gives you a character at level 90 and expects you to earn everything else (gear, currency, materials for crafting) yourself so no real advantage over a player who did the grind to 90 themselves. That is the difference and why I feel one (botting) is wrong and the other is just convenience, but not game-breaking. When things are game-breaking then I have a problem with it, unfair advantages and such.

To my understanding, botting is used to grind out skills, resources, and currency, not actually do quests for you. So is that content, that infinitely repeatable content, really "finished"? Is that content "gone"? But regardless here's an interesting question then. What is "content" to you? I believe this is going to come down to personal views and semantics really. Some people would say the journey to 90 is, in fact, content in and of itself. While others say the game doesn't really start till end game content. I see it as a paid pass to skip stuff, so I wonder why botting is against the rules. Then I remember Bliz isn't getting a cut of that money and botting actively makes it harder for Bliz to get irl money out of people. You get lvl appropriate gear with a boost so you could, theoretically, just pick up lvl 90 quests and roll from there. Effectively skipping all lvl 1-89 content. And that raises the question again. You say a boost isn't an unfair advantage because people can just grind out a lvl 90 and be at the same place. I ask, isn't that the same thing as a bot? Can another player not rep grind to get to the same place? Resource grind? Skill grind? What exactly does botting give a player that's an advantage over others? It's not hacking to make yourself better, just paying a third party to automate the grind instead of paying Bliz to skip the grind.

We're all dying ... not quite there yet.

Speak for yourself, bein a lich is kindda cool.

 

[Imperioratorex Caprae]

**snip**

Because the botting that is usually used is being used to farm in game currency like honor that nets players gear, which others have to work for. Also it is used to gather resources, not train skills, which is taking away from the other players on whatever server the botter happens to be on. Its not an instant-gain, and it affects the in-game economy as well as giving unfair advantages over players in PVP (honor grinding for gear). Its not just giving you access to a different part of a game, its also taking away the resources that other players who are actually doing the work themselves would otherwise get. Its a negative effect, not a neutral effect.
Blizzard has made it easier to access endgame but they aren't selling gear or reputation. They did institute recently a way to buy in-game time with in-game currency and likewise allow players to sell said time for in-game currency, buying it with real money but Blizzard is controlling the market for that, not allowing players to set prices on the game-time so its less able to be abused. Botting can gather resources and currency and mess with the in-game economy, and I've also seen people who multi-box with bots in PvP (Arena) to get an unfair advantage by having somewhat AI controlled characters boosting their ratings.
WoW's terms of use allows you to play the game however you wish but restricts you from automating any of its in game mechanics. You can't make an auto rotating macro program to do your DPS for you, and you can't use a bot to farm resources for you because you're either too lazy or too busy to do so yourself. Its the same vein of not playing the game.
Getting a one-time boost to not-even-max level isn't much of an advantage and leaves a lot of wiggle room. That player won't have an advantage over a person who's actually done the grind because playing from 1-90, if you're a smart player, can end up setting you up to succeed better than a player who just boosted to 90 by way of the currency earned from leveling, skill progression, crafting and selling on the auction house.
Botting IMO is the laziest form of gaming because you're no longer playing, the program is doing it for you whereas getting a level 90 character doesn't do anything for you except let you play from 90-100, but you also sacrifice a lot of other advantages by doing so. Botting doesn't sacrifice anything gives the user an unfair advantage of being able to walk away from their computer while a 3rd party program gathers resources or honor or whatever they're farming. Trust me, its not the people who use bots to grind to 90, because it takes just as long as no matter if you grind yourself or have a bot do it, its the ones who use bots to get crafting resources and currency that are the real problem and why Blizzard universally disallows the usage of 3rd party automation. I fully agree with it.
I remember once a few years back playing on a PVP server when 5 identical characters rolled up on me, in sync and cast the same spells at the same time, wrecking my character in a heartbeat. That is botting and an unfair advantage as well. Its too powerful, and also way too unfair an advantage. There's no way 5 people were doing the exact same thing at the exact same time (especially since the character's names were only slight variations of the same word), it was a person with a bot or macro system that either multi-boxed or somehow linked 5 PC's together with a program to play 5 characters with one keyboard... either way it is an unfair advantage, not a neutral boost to a level.
You gain nothing except 89 levels when you level-boost. You can wreck an economy if you bot-farm on a server enough. See the difference? One makes no in-game waves, the other has a negative effect.

 

[Ambitiousmould]

Fair enough.

I'd leave it at that but I don't want a low content warning. I don't really see how this is much of a discussion. People cheated and got punished for it. Sound as a pound, that concept.

 

[Aeshi]

Again you're making assumptions and showing your enthrallment. The fact that I can say I found the game to be linear, boring and unchallenging seems to be the issue you're focusing on. Your experience may have been different but my own experience is still valid.

Because it's an issue that reeks of Hypocrisy: You STILL haven't given a straight answer as to whether you even bothered to try some of the harder content before you wrote WoW off as "linear, boring and unchallenging."

Considering you're getting this worked up and being this snide about someone saying a thing about a game you like "enthrallment" certainly comes to mind. Maybe just cool off man. Even if MonsterCrit's wrong you're both just going to butt heads here until one of you pisses the other off. It's really not worth it.

Me getting "worked up" about this is nothing to do with me liking WoW (I'm neutral towards it at best.) I'm just sick of the constant stream of people who whine that the game is too "unchallenging" yet have never actually bothered to try any of the games more challenging content. It's like beating a game on its easiest difficulty and then complaining that it's too easy: Just pick one of harder options! That's why they exist!

If MonsterCrit had actually beaten some of WoW's harder Dungeons/Raids/Whatever and still thought it was too easy I might be inclined to be less snide.

 

[Sarge034]

Because the botting that is usually used is being used to farm in game currency like honor that nets players gear, which others have to work for. Also it is used to gather resources, not train skills, which is taking away from the other players on whatever server the botter happens to be on. Its not an instant-gain, and it affects the in-game economy as well as giving unfair advantages over players in PVP (honor grinding for gear). Its not just giving you access to a different part of a game, its also taking away the resources that other players who are actually doing the work themselves would otherwise get. Its a negative effect, not a neutral effect.
Blizzard has made it easier to access endgame but they aren't selling gear or reputation. They did institute recently a way to buy in-game time with in-game currency and likewise allow players to sell said time for in-game currency, buying it with real money but Blizzard is controlling the market for that, not allowing players to set prices on the game-time so its less able to be abused. Botting can gather resources and currency and mess with the in-game economy, and I've also seen people who multi-box with bots in PvP (Arena) to get an unfair advantage by having somewhat AI controlled characters boosting their ratings.
WoW's terms of use allows you to play the game however you wish but restricts you from automating any of its in game mechanics. You can't make an auto rotating macro program to do your DPS for you, and you can't use a bot to farm resources for you because you're either too lazy or too busy to do so yourself. Its the same vein of not playing the game.
Getting a one-time boost to not-even-max level isn't much of an advantage and leaves a lot of wiggle room. That player won't have an advantage over a person who's actually done the grind because playing from 1-90, if you're a smart player, can end up setting you up to succeed better than a player who just boosted to 90 by way of the currency earned from leveling, skill progression, crafting and selling on the auction house.
Botting IMO is the laziest form of gaming because you're no longer playing, the program is doing it for you whereas getting a level 90 character doesn't do anything for you except let you play from 90-100, but you also sacrifice a lot of other advantages by doing so. Botting doesn't sacrifice anything gives the user an unfair advantage of being able to walk away from their computer while a 3rd party program gathers resources or honor or whatever they're farming. Trust me, its not the people who use bots to grind to 90, because it takes just as long as no matter if you grind yourself or have a bot do it, its the ones who use bots to get crafting resources and currency that are the real problem and why Blizzard universally disallows the usage of 3rd party automation. I fully agree with it.
I remember once a few years back playing on a PVP server when 5 identical characters rolled up on me, in sync and cast the same spells at the same time, wrecking my character in a heartbeat. That is botting and an unfair advantage as well. Its too powerful, and also way too unfair an advantage. There's no way 5 people were doing the exact same thing at the exact same time (especially since the character's names were only slight variations of the same word), it was a person with a bot or macro system that either multi-boxed or somehow linked 5 PC's together with a program to play 5 characters with one keyboard... either way it is an unfair advantage, not a neutral boost to a level.
You gain nothing except 89 levels when you level-boost. You can wreck an economy if you bot-farm on a server enough. See the difference? One makes no in-game waves, the other has a negative effect.

Those are some interesting points. I still don't see a difference between botting vs grinding and paid boost vs grinding. You will probably never convince me differently. It's just how I feel. Botting in pvp I can see being an issue, I agree with that. And I hadn't considered the ramifications on the in game economy, but if I recall the inflation has skyrocketed since the game launched so perhaps an influx of supply isn't a bad thing...

 

[Imperioratorex Caprae]

Those are some interesting points. I still don't see a difference between botting vs grinding and paid boost vs grinding. You will probably never convince me differently. It's just how I feel. Botting in pvp I can see being an issue, I agree with that. And I hadn't considered the ramifications on the in game economy, but if I recall the inflation has skyrocketed since the game launched so perhaps an influx of supply isn't a bad thing...

A lot of the inflation has been artificial due to botting, which if curbed may tamp down the inflation of prices and make things a bit more affordable for players. Gold farming and botting were the two major issues that started the inflation of the WoW economy.

 

[MonsterCrit]

Again you're making assumptions and showing your enthrallment. The fact that I can say I found the game to be linear, boring and unchallenging seems to be the issue you're focusing on. Your experience may have been different but my own experience is still valid.

Because it's an issue that reeks of Hypocrisy: You STILL haven't given a straight answer as to whether you even bothered to try some of the harder content before you wrote WoW off as "linear, boring and unchallenging."

Okay for starters ... you apparently don't know the meaning of the word Hypocrisy. You seem to be implying That I'm putting down something I've never tried. That's not Hypocrisy...that would be BIas. My suggestion. Look up the meaning of words before you start using them. Mm-kay.

Considering you're getting this worked up and being this snide about someone saying a thing about a game you like "enthrallment" certainly comes to mind. Maybe just cool off man. Even if MonsterCrit's wrong you're both just going to butt heads here until one of you pisses the other off. It's really not worth it.

Me getting "worked up" about this is nothing to do with me liking WoW (I'm neutral towards it at best.)

Neutral...You're about as neutral as the US in Middle-Eastern Politics.

I'm just sick of the constant stream of people who whine that the game is too "unchallenging" yet have never actually bothered to try any of the games more challenging content. It's like beating a game on its easiest difficulty and then complaining that it's too easy: Just pick one of harder options! That's why they exist!

Here's the logic you missed.. If there is a constant stream... maybe, just maybe there's something to what they're saying. Or is it that anyone that doesn't share your 'Neutral' stance wrong.

If MonsterCrit had actually beaten some of WoW's harder Dungeons/Raids/Whatever and still thought it was too easy I might be inclined to be less snide.

No you wouldn't. Your style of arguing shows that much at the very least.

 

[kasperbbs]

100,000 is half the population of my city.

Their game, their rules, but really does botting actually hurt anything? It just lets people automate things that are time consuming. That's why we created computers in the first place.

I don't know how they work in wow specifically, but yes, they are very annoying in competitive games. Your competition gets higher levels and richer while not even being online and if it has some extra features for combat, like automated assists or other pvp related stuff then it kills the joy in playing the game for others completely.

 

[DugMachine]

snip

Are you ever going to address his point and link your armory? I'm of the mind you cannot call WoW easy if you're not fully mythic geared with a gladiator rating.

Sure the questing and LFR are piss easy but those are meant for the most entry level players.

 

[Sarge034]

A lot of the inflation has been artificial due to botting, which if curbed may tamp down the inflation of prices and make things a bit more affordable for players. Gold farming and botting were the two major issues that started the inflation of the WoW economy.

I knew gold farming was a contributing factor but the economy is flawed to begin with. Namely, there is infinite currency and infinite "supply". This is an interesting watch if you haven't already.
http://www.escapistmagazine.com/videos/view/game-theory/10048-Will-World-of-Warcraft-Save-the-Economy
Anyway, with the way supply and demand works botting should have actually driven prices to rock bottom, at least on those items being uber farmed. There are certain cases that break the system like gas, cigarettes, and booze, but what usually happens is an increase in supply will lower demand and in doing so will force prices down to remain competitive. HOWEVER, with supply and currency being infinite the whole system kindda gets turned on it's head. And for that fact, serious question as I don't know, is it possible to set up a bot to farm dungeons for those drops? If not, or it's a rare thing, how would we then explain the comparable inflation on those items not being bot farmed?

 

[MonsterCrit]

snip

Are you ever going to address his point and link your armory? I'm of the mind you cannot call WoW easy if you're not fully mythic geared with a gladiator rating.

Sure the questing and LFR are piss easy but those are meant for the most entry level players.

There went your pretense of 'neutrality' my friend. YOu have shown yourself to be an obsessed fan-boy that can't stand when someone else voices an opinion that goes against their own ..almost religious..POV. By your definition no one is allowed to have a critical opinion of your beloved franchise until they've devote the same level of slavish enthrallment you have. Of course if I'd said something Like:

'WoW is the best, it's totally deep, challenging and entertaining'

You wouldn't have said a thing would you?

Seriously. as I asked.. how would I do that anyway. I mean at this point I don't even remember what my login data was... not that I've had much of a reason to bother remembering.. The Game itself hasn't been installed on my PC since Obama began his second term. Last Raid I did was Ice Crown Citadel... when it was the *NEW* Raid.

 

[DugMachine]

snip

Are you ever going to address his point and link your armory? I'm of the mind you cannot call WoW easy if you're not fully mythic geared with a gladiator rating.

Sure the questing and LFR are piss easy but those are meant for the most entry level players.

There went your pretense of 'neutrality' my friend. YOu have shown yourself to be an obsessed fan-boy that can't stand when someone else voices an opinion that goes against their own ..almost religious..POV. By your definition no one is allowed to have a critical opinion of your beloved franchise until they've devote the same level of slavish enthrallment you have. Of course if I'd said something Like:

'WoW is the best, it's totally deep, challenging and entertaining'

You wouldn't have said a thing would you?

Seriously. as I asked.. how would I do that anyway. I mean at this point I don't even remember what my login data was... not that I've had much of a reason to bother remembering.. The Game itself hasn't been installed on my PC since Obama began his second term. Last Raid I did was Ice Crown Citadel... when it was the *NEW* Raid.

You realize I'm not the original poster you were discussing this with correct? So don't tell me I'm enthralled. I play the game currently and have MAJOR issues with the direction this game is headed. Someone who hasn't been playing for 3 expansions shouldn't have a opinion on the difficulty level of a game especially when their information is not current and they cannot prove they have completed the most challenging aspects of the game.

 

[MonsterCrit]

snip

Are you ever going to address his point and link your armory? I'm of the mind you cannot call WoW easy if you're not fully mythic geared with a gladiator rating.

Sure the questing and LFR are piss easy but those are meant for the most entry level players.

There went your pretense of 'neutrality' my friend. YOu have shown yourself to be an obsessed fan-boy that can't stand when someone else voices an opinion that goes against their own ..almost religious..POV. By your definition no one is allowed to have a critical opinion of your beloved franchise until they've devote the same level of slavish enthrallment you have. Of course if I'd said something Like:

'WoW is the best, it's totally deep, challenging and entertaining'

You wouldn't have said a thing would you?

Seriously. as I asked.. how would I do that anyway. I mean at this point I don't even remember what my login data was... not that I've had much of a reason to bother remembering.. The Game itself hasn't been installed on my PC since Obama began his second term. Last Raid I did was Ice Crown Citadel... when it was the *NEW* Raid.

You realize I'm not the original poster you were discussing this with correct? So don't tell me I'm enthralled. I play the game currently and have MAJOR issues with the direction this game is headed. Someone who hasn't been playing for 3 expansions shouldn't have a opinion on the difficulty level of a game especially when their information is not current and they cannot prove they have completed the most challenging aspects of the game.

What I played of Cata did not lead me to think anything had changed for the better. What with Talent builds going the way of the DoDo and having some choice in how to level your skills. So My opinion still stands. Unchallenging, boring gameplay that's more about linear grind than it is about, tactics or skill.

Mechanically.. the game has made it actually hard to make the wrong decisions. Where a game mechanically funnels you into the optimal build... it removes depth.

 

[DugMachine]

What I played of Cata did not lead me to think anything had changed for the better. What with Talent builds going the way of the DoDo and having some choice in how to level your skills. So My opinion still stands. Unchallenging, boring gameplay that's more about linear grind than it is about, tactics or skill.

Mechanically.. the game has made it actually hard to make the wrong decisions. Where a game mechanically funnels you into the optimal build... it removes depth.

The gameplay is the same as it ever was so not really sure where you're going with that. If you don't enjoy the game that's fine I understand why people are unsubbing in millions but lack of "challenge" shouldn't be the reason especially if you won't try the real challenges the game has to offer.

As for the talents I disagree on almost every level. The old talent trees were not fun or engaging there was boring cookie cutter builds you copied off websites for the most optimal results or you would be laughed out of raids. Sure you could experiment but any serious raiding guild was not going to consider you. And there was so little choice in the old builds. Each tree had what 1 maybe 2 defining talents that couldn't be accessed until you went all the way down the tree? If you wanted to do a split 50/50 you would have no defining moves other than the base ones in your spell book with passive skills from the tank/dps, heal/tank, dps/heal trees. So much fun wow.

The old tree was compromised of almost nothing but passive abilities that you had no direct control over. Now most of the talents actually perform some function outside of "increase x stat by x%". All the boring talents were made baseline and the new talents became useful spells that serve different functions depending on the fights you're doing. Bad players will go and copy a build from icyveins and never change their talents while good players that know there is more to their class than the rotation and will change talents depending on the need of the fight. You couldn't do that back then. You went all the way down the tree to get that single talent so that you were useful.

Hell even on rotations some talents drastically change the way rotations are performed. Some making them easier and others making them more difficult, usually with the reward of higher dps/hps/damage mitigation.

 

[MonsterCrit]

What I played of Cata did not lead me to think anything had changed for the better. What with Talent builds going the way of the DoDo and having some choice in how to level your skills. So My opinion still stands. Unchallenging, boring gameplay that's more about linear grind than it is about, tactics or skill.

Mechanically.. the game has made it actually hard to make the wrong decisions. Where a game mechanically funnels you into the optimal build... it removes depth.

The gameplay is the same as it ever was so not really sure where you're going with that. If you don't enjoy the game that's fine I understand why people are unsubbing in millions but lack of "challenge" shouldn't be the reason especially if you won't try the real challenges the game has to offer.

Your definition of challenge and mine are apparently quite different. My idea of a challenging game is one that forces me to adapt to new elements and allows me to try new strategies, new approaches to the same problem or throws enough variance in the problems that I have to keep mentally alert at the very least. As opposed to challenging by way of just through dudes with bigger numbers at you. That doesn't make things so much challenging so much as just making them take longer.

As for the talents I disagree on almost every level. The old talent trees were not fun or engaging there was boring cookie cutter builds you copied off websites for the most optimal results or you would be laughed out of raids. Sure you could experiment but any serious raiding guild was not going to consider you.

Yeah but here's the thing. You could still experiment and those cookie cutter buiolds everyone copied were usually the result of somebody's experimenting. So blizzard

And there was so little choice in the old builds. Each tree had what 1 maybe 2 defining talents that couldn't be accessed until you went all the way down the tree? If you wanted to do a split 50/50 you would have no defining moves other than the base ones in your spell book with passive skills from the tank/dps, heal/tank, dps/heal trees. So much fun wow.

Actually that was a lot of fun. I remember having a great time with my Dual-Wield Tank Builds. IT was a challenge. It wasn't about being 'Optimal' it was about 'Can I pull this off?' If the answer was yes. It was a 'Yay!' Moment if the answer was 'No' you went back to puzzling and pondering the reasons for the failure and finding ways to work with, through, or around them.

The old tree was compromised of almost nothing but passive abilities that you had no direct control over. Now most of the talents actually perform some function outside of "increase x stat by x%".

Of course that meant which talents you put you points into was based on how you wanted to play.

All the boring talents were made baseline and the new talents became useful spells that serve different functions depending on the fights you're doing. Bad players will go and copy a build from icyveins and never change their talents while good players that know there is more to their class than the rotation and will change talents depending on the need of the fight. You couldn't do that back then. You went all the way down the tree to get that single talent so that you were useful.

If you wanted to be optimal yeah that's what you did. If you wanted to be challenged... you did other things. Now a days. Well it's ever so easy to be optimal.. rather difficult to be find some novelty. This goes back to perhaps Why WoW is finding it harder and harder to hold on to players.

Why is it people can still after all these years have a fun playthrough of NWN... because you could always find some new twist to make it interesting. Like say going through with a Half Ling Barbarian Dual wielding berserker.... not Easy. Or being a comidically evil cleric. See.. the ability to vary something is what gives something replayability. Heck Look at moBa's The mechanics are very simple but the variations are all over the place. Sure there will always be whiners in MOBAs that say you must play X character in Y way. and threaten to kick you. Then You make them rethink their views on the hero. Like say pulling off a Blink Dagger, Cask, Maldict, Death-Ward Shadowblade sequence ina 5v5 team fight. You can always find something new to try in a MOBA. In WoW... not so much about trying new things.

 

[DugMachine]

If you wanted to be optimal yeah that's what you did. If you wanted to be challenged... you did other things. Now a days. Well it's ever so easy to be optimal.. rather difficult to be find some novelty. This goes back to perhaps Why WoW is finding it harder and harder to hold on to players.

And that's all well and good but who exactly is being challenged when you try something like dual wield tanking? I'm assuming you are talking about the warrior class here which is what I have mained since Burning Crusade. You say this is challenging but you're limiting yourself on what you can do when you try something like that. Warriors spells for defense are shield wall, shield block, shield slam, spell reflect etc. These all revolve around a shield yet you want to try dual wielding which would just constitute throwing out some sunder armors and being in defensive stance to generate threat. This is no challenge as you'll have access to like what rend and heroic strike and maybe thunderclap? You have no damage mitigation having the only real challenge being on your healers trying to keep you alive.

So there you are as a tank with no actual tank spells or tank interactions. You're a dps that can take a little bit more damage than the others. I mean if you want crazy customization like that awesome it sounds like fun but WoW has never been that game.

 

[MonsterCrit]

If you wanted to be optimal yeah that's what you did. If you wanted to be challenged... you did other things. Now a days. Well it's ever so easy to be optimal.. rather difficult to be find some novelty. This goes back to perhaps Why WoW is finding it harder and harder to hold on to players.

And that's all well and good but who exactly is being challenged when you try something like dual wield tanking? I'm assuming you are talking about the warrior class here which is what I have mained since Burning Crusade. You say this is challenging but you're limiting yourself on what you can do when you try something like that.

And that's part of the challenge so get in line Junior. Warrior's been my fave class since Vanilla.

Warriors spells for defense are shield wall, shield block, shield slam, spell reflect etc. These all revolve around a shield yet you want to try dual wielding which would just constitute throwing out some sunder armors and being in defensive stance to generate threat.

You're not getting the point of 'Trying something different' it seems.

This is no challenge as you'll have access to like what rend and heroic strike and maybe thunderclap? You have no damage mitigation having the only real challenge being on your healers trying to keep you alive.

Well actually, there's more to it than that but I won't get into specifics since they're moot at this point. THe thing is, it made things a little different for everyone. IT made it harder for me to control and manage threat which meant CC was a bit more integral to success. Before you say anything, me party's were usually down with it. I'd typically ask them, let them know what I wanted to try.. Some said no, others were curious enough to see what would happen. It wasn't a perfect build but it spiced up things and finding ways to make it work was a good time occupation which kept me playing.

I mean if you want crazy customization like that awesome it sounds like fun but WoW has never been that game.

And that is why they are losing subscribers faster than they can replace them. Same for most MMO's. An MMO that finds away to bridge that gap is the MMO that will topple the supremacy of Eve and WoW.